Does Islam have a definition of sin?

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From the Skeptic’s Annotated Bible, which states it more succinctly than I have.

God punishes Eve, and all women after her, with the pains of childbirth and subjection to men. Gen. 3:16

Adam is also punished, although less severely. He now will have to work for a living because he “hearkened unto the voice” of his wife. Gen. 3:17

Women in the Bible

In 1 Corinthians:

Paul would prefer that no one marry. but he says “to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife.” 7:1-2

Paul says “the head of the woman is the man,” meaning that the women are to be subordinate to men. 11:3

Men are made in the image of God; women in the image of men. Women were created from and for men. 11:7-9

Women are commanded by Paul to be silent in church and to be obedient to men. He further says that “if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in church.” 14:34-35

Ephesians:

Wives must submit to their husbands “in every thing” as though they were Christ. “For the husband is the head of the wife.” 5:22-24

1 Timothy

“Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.” 2:11-12

Men are superior to women since Adam was made before, and sinned after, Eve. But even though women are inferior to men, they shouldn’t be discouraged because they shall “be saved in childbearing.” 2:14-15
Geez, amy. I’m reading this thread and I’m thinking, “Wow these guys are being pretty rough and rude on her.”
But with the above, you may deserve the rough part.

After lamenting an alleging anti-islam site, you reference “Skeptics Annotated Bible”?? Please. Your hypocrisy.

How about the “Skeptics Annotated Koran” on women?

skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/women/long.html


  1. *]Menstruation is a sickness. Don’t have sex with menstruating women. 2:222

    *]Have sex with your women whenever and as often as you like. 2:223
    *]Women have rights that are similar to men, but men are “a degree above them.” 2:228
    *]A woman is worth one-half a man. 2:282
    *]“Marry of the women, who seem good to you, two or three or four.” 4:3
    *]Males are to inherit twice that of females. 4:11
    *]Lewd women are to be confined to their houses until death. 4:15
    *]You may not forcibly inherit women, unless they flagrantly lewd. 4:19
    *]Instructions for exchanging wives 4:20
    There are 44 more such “annontations.”
 
Pretty apt response guys. The saying is true - Those who live in glass houses should not throw stones on others.
 
Muslims I can love. But I dont even like people speaking gentle about islam.

this is a very Dangerous Religion and way of Life. If I were given the power I would OUTLAW islam…
…islam IS SIN ! ITs EVIL, Its DESTRUCIVE, Its ANTI-CHRIST, ITS an ABOMINATION to the LORD !!
This isn’t what our country or faith is about. Outlaw one religion, and pretty soon they’re coming after us.
 
Actually, there is no distinction in Islam between the sin of Adam and the sin of Eve. They both sinned. And they both repented. And they were both forgiven.

There is absolutely no relation to Eve with anything that you said in Islam. I mean, I’ve never heard it in any class on Islam with anything to do with women. First of all, stoning is a punishment applied equally to men as to women. In fact, it can’t even be applied to a woman only. I’ve never heard of acid-throwing in Islam, sounds like it wouldn’t be allowed. Honor killings as I’ve mentioned before on this site are forbidden in a variety of different ways by which they violate sacred law. Women are given certain rights and protections in the Qur’an which you cannot take away.

There is a major distinction between the Christian view of Eve vs. the Muslim one. While Islam blames each individual for their own sin, it seems like all of mankind is doomed because of Eve, and Eve is specifically blamed and smeared in the Bible, isn’t she? Whereas in Islam both are responsible for their sin, both repent, both forgiven.

Women have the same spiritual worth in Islam, the same spiritual obligations, except that they actually get a break, and have a ligher burden regarding some religious obligations. Some scholars have even mentioned that this is because women are spiritually superior to men. In that they have greater comprehension of spirituality because of their nature. 🙂
To be fair, I have never heard of an “acid throwing” incident, either. Cathopologist should provide a link to one or two, if they exist.
Honor killings also seem to be cultural, but pegged to Islam by the perpetrators.
But after that, amy, you and I part ways.
The fact is, in practice, stonings are NOT applied equally. And I don’t care what it says in the Koran or hadith. I’m talking about the practical application of this disgusting and ungodly act. Don’t tell me it is unislamic. Muslims are doing it.

Next is your allegation of christianity, women and Eve. If I recall correctly, you made plenty of feminist posts at WI decrying Islam’s sexism before you “immersed” yourself into the religion. That ire is now turned to your former faith, christianity. Again, my recollection is that experience was a less-than-positive upbringing in a fundamentalist approach that had some strak differences with orthodox christianity.

Hence, you write “it seems all of mankind is dommed because of Eve.” I’m sure to you it* seems* that way. Never seemed that way to me, though.
“Women are given certain rights and protections in the Qur’an which you cannot take away.”
I don’t know if an apologist like yourself actually believes that, but I accept it. What I don’t accept is the absurd crack back on christianity. It’s that hypocrisy of yours again.

“Eve is specifically blamed and smeared in the Bible, isn’t she? Whereas in Islam both are responsible for their sin…”

That is your opinion and the opinion of some whacks. Show me a doctrine. Somewhere. Anywhere. Not pulling isolated, chopped, out-of-context quotes from scripture. That’s a challenge. Meet it or zip it.

This is not to say that the world isn’t a sexist place. We can agree on that. Just don’t lay it on the doorstep of a religion that is NOT used to prevent a woman from driving in one particular country.

You may now return to your imaginary utopia.
 
Since Sister Amy is relatively a new Muslim, there are many things she does not know about Islamic tenets concerning Adam and Eve. This is why I deem it necessary to remind her the following points:

1) The name “Eve” is missing from the Koran. The Islamic scripture always marks the first woman as Adam’s wife with no specific name.

2) The Koran does not narrate how and why Adam’s wife was created . The account of genesis in the Islamic scripture focuses on the creation of Adam alone.

3) According to the Koran, Allah forgives only Adam although He puts enmity between Adam and his wife.
 
to: LtTony
This isn’t what our country or faith is about. Outlaw one religion, and pretty soon they’re coming after us.
Are ya kiddin me Lt?
What, you mean Like fly planes into buildings, or maybe bomb U.S. embassies or maybe a Navy Ship like the US Cole, or how about the Pentagon… Or just go after Jews on a regular basis. Or even bomb and killl within their own religious nature, so many there is not enought paper to write it on.

My point is that Its time to define religion in that all can be tolerated except those that are intolerable of other religions. But then there is the Catch 22… how do you not allow one for its intolerance without being intolerable of another. EASY make it a crime. we dont tolerate murderers in our Law. Right?

If you dont speak out against this type of religion their will be a time when this type of religion will be at hand just like Saudi Arabia where even possesing a Christian bible is a crime. Wake up all… Our time as Christians is short. Recognize sin as sin Lt. Dont let your ease for confrontation fog your vision.

Praise be to OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST and the coming Kingdom…
 
I admit the Islamic belief to combine religion with politics and government blurs the line, paricularly in Europe and the East. But most muslims in the U.S. generally reject that notion.

And I concede this sort of thing:
More limited freedoms - sad to see things like this happen anywhere.

reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSJAK22718320080804

*Indonesian Muslims urge Ahmadiyya sect disbanded

Mon Aug 4, 2008 5:55am EDT JAKARTA (Reuters) - Several hundred Indonesian Muslims rallied on Monday in Jakarta and Surabaya, urging the government to disband the Ahmadiyya sect which many followers of Islam consider heretical.

The government of the world’s most populous Muslim country has come under increasing pressure from hard-line groups in recent months to ban Ahmadiyya, whose followers refuse to accept the Prophet Mohammad as Islam’s final prophet.*

But I think we must be very, very, very careful when talking about outlawing a particular faith. Just ask the jews.
If someone crosses the line civilally or criminally, then we crack down on those individuals, not the entire faith.
What you propose is exactly the attitude of the jihadists that launched the attacks you mentioned. And as bad as those muslims who proclaim an attack on Islam when we prosecute those offenders. If they can’t see the difference, then their loyalty and citizenship should be questioned. Religion shouldn’t come into it all. Let their “secular” actions speak for themselves.
 
Since Sister Amy is relatively a new Muslim, there are many things she does not know about Islamic tenets concerning Adam and Eve. This is why I deem it necessary to remind her the following points:

1) The name “Eve” is missing from the Koran. The Islamic scripture always marks the first woman as Adam’s wife with no specific name.

2) The Koran does not narrate how and why Adam’s wife was created . The account of genesis in the Islamic scripture focuses on the creation of Adam alone.

3) According to the Koran, Allah forgives only Adam although He puts enmity between Adam and his wife.
Interesting.

Got a response to that, amy?
 
*Amy wrote: but in Islam there is not a specific determination of what is a major and minor sin.

Basically (summarized version here) what makes a major sin is one where Allah promised a punishment either in this life for it, or in the next life. For example… adultery is a major sin, with a punishment in this life. Backbiting (not in 10 commandments btw) is a major sin, with a punishment in the next life. There are also some lists in hadith for example which say ‘these are major sins…’ and classify them as such.*
----------------

First you say that there is no definition in Islam of what major and minor sins are. (this is after you’ve mention these sins several times)
Then you go on to say what Allah has said about major and minor sins.
What am I missing here?
 
To: LtTony
But I think we must be very, very, very careful when talking about outlawing a particular faith. Just ask the jews.
If someone crosses the line civilally or criminally, then we crack down on those individuals, not the entire faith.
What you propose is exactly the attitude of the jihadists that launched the attacks you mentioned. And as bad as those muslims who proclaim an attack on Islam when we prosecute those offenders. If they can’t see the difference, then their loyalty and citizenship should be questioned. Religion shouldn’t come into it all. Let their “secular” actions speak for themselves.
I fully respect your response. And completely understand your angle on this.

There was a short time past I thought the same. But now I realize that a moderate muslim can live in peace. But a devout Muslim to Islam, is, and Has to be a terroist. And its the Religion I want gone NOT THE PEOPLE… There is a difference between this and wiping out the Jews. That just prejudice based on a category.

Im speaking of a belief that must change for the betterment of the PLANET… I know deep in my heart though, that this never occur until Our LORD and King Returns with the faith and strength of the Kingdom…
 
And I hear and appreciate what you are saying. However…

“But a devout Muslim to Islam, is, and Has to be a terroist.”

Disagree. Do most (non-U.S.) muslims want shariah, etc.? Yes. And I would never surrender to that. But they don’t have to be terrorists to accomplish that.

“And its the Religion I want gone NOT THE PEOPLE.”

That’s a cop-out, and ironically the same one radical islamists use when attacking the U.S. with rhetoric: “It’s not Americans we hate, but their government (Bush).” A government that has been the same for a long, long time – longer than Bush.
They hide behind that, an insidious tactic. Don’t you become like them.

Im speaking of a belief that must change for the betterment of the PLANET… I know deep in my heart though, that this never occur until Our LORD and King Returns with the faith and strength of the Kingdom…

There is nothing wrong with defending ourselves, but if I have to let my guard down some in order to protect the innocent – then it is God’s will. So many of my countrymen inject God into this, just like the jihadists do. Any suffering we endure under the hells of islamists will be rewarded. As I said, we can defend ourselves, but our faith is not one that dwells on war, conquests, revenge, etc., like our enemy.
We’re better than them. I don’t want to become anything remotely close to that violent side of them. We’re imperfect, and violent enough as it is.
 
“But the mistakes they commit are only according to the Hikmat of Allah… These mistakes are below the standards of
the Nabiyeen…
The awliya…
…if this was-wâs happens to any wali…”

Translater please.
 
To:LtTony:
Disagree. Do most (non-U.S.) muslims want shariah, etc.? Yes. And I would never surrender to that. But they don’t have to be terrorists to accomplish that.
Its obvious that you havent read the quran. Its obvious that you have no idea as to not only the religion but the very culture. Im not even going to attempt to educate you on this as there is so much info out there as to enormous extent of what these people are capable of. My carreer in the Navy taught me much of what this islam culture is so capable of. EVERY muslim in islam is called to raise arms and death to ALL, ALL who dont believe in islam. This is even MOST prevelant on the MEDINA code which EVEN supersedes the quran.

People like yourself who pretend that this giant elephant in the room is not there, cause for the spread of islam.

Maybe you lack courage and strenght to call a spade a spade but i dont. islam demands that ALL either kill those unbelievers or cause them to pay with both homage and finance.
That’s a cop-out, and ironically the same one radical islamists use when attacking the U.S. with rhetoric: “It’s not Americans we hate, but their government (Bush).” A government that has been the same for a long, long time – longer than Bush.
They hide behind that, an insidious tactic. Don’t you become like them.
IT take a big offense to comparing my warnings to these “radical” islamists. You will never see me mount a plane or bomb women and children, or cowardly use hospitals to bury my weapons. These so called “radicals” are only following what they are taught in the quran and the medina codes.
 
“But the mistakes they commit are only according to the Hikmat of Allah… These mistakes are below the standards of
the Nabiyeen…
The awliya…
…if this was-wâs happens to any wali…”

Translater please.
Hikmat: wisdom.

Nabiyeen: messengers

Awliya: kind of Islamic saints

Wali: friend or ally
 
To:LtTony:

Its obvious that you havent read the quran. Its obvious that you have no idea as to not only the religion but the very culture. Im not even going to attempt to educate you on this as there is so much info out there as to enormous extent of what these people are capable of. My carreer in the Navy taught me much of what this islam culture is so capable of. EVERY muslim in islam is called to raise arms and death to ALL, ALL who dont believe in islam. This is even MOST prevelant on the MEDINA code which EVEN supersedes the quran.

People like yourself who pretend that this giant elephant in the room is not there, cause for the spread of islam.

Maybe you lack courage and strenght to call a spade a spade but i dont. islam demands that ALL either kill those unbelievers or cause them to pay with both homage and finance.

IT take a big offense to comparing my warnings to these “radical” islamists. You will never see me mount a plane or bomb women and children, or cowardly use hospitals to bury my weapons. These so called “radicals” are only following what they are taught in the quran and the medina codes.
I think you misjudge me. I suggest you read my posts here and whyislam to gain some insight. I hold views similar to yours, just not to the extreme.
 
Interesting.

Got a response to that, amy?
I will respond but only because I like you. I’ve set Angelos on my “ignore” list and I don’t read or respond to his posts. He just kinda goes around in circles and I don’t have time for that. But since YOU asked, I’ll answer. 🙂
  1. The name “Eve” is missing from the Koran. The Islamic scripture always marks the first woman as Adam’s wife with no specific name.
  1. The Koran does not narrate how and why Adam’s wife was created . The account of genesis in the Islamic scripture focuses on the creation of Adam alone.
  1. According to the Koran, Allah forgives only Adam although He puts enmity between Adam and his wife.
(1a) There is only one woman who has been honored to have her name mentioned in the Qur’an. Only one woman. And do you know who it is? It is Mary. The only woman who is named in the Qur’an. And named many times in fact. Such honor she has that Jesus is often simply called “the Son of Mary.” Never is she called the mother of Jesus, but he, the son of Mary. 🙂

(1b) The Qur’an is not a history book, giving detailed narratives on any particular subject. That’s not its purpose. This word “Eve” isn’t used in Islam but the name for Adam’s wife is Hawwa. How do Muslims know her name? Why do they call her Hawwa? The answer is that she is mentioned in traditions from Muhammad, outside the Qur’an. Because the Qur’an is not the only source of Islam–Muslims were sent not just the scripture but the Messenger as well, with the wisdom to interpret it.

(2) This is 7:189 It is He (Allah) Who has created you (mankind) from a single person (Adam), and (then) He has created from him his wife [Hawwa (Eve)], in order that he might enjoy the pleasure of living with her.

That’s what the Muhsin Khan translation says. The Saheeh Int’l translation reads, “It is He who created you from one soul and created from it its mate that he might dwell in security with her.”

Not sure what else you’re looking for, nor why it would be significant. There’s a well-known and lovely hadith in Islam about the woman (Hawwa) being created from the rib of Adam. It tells men that women are created curved/bent and if a man tries to straighten one that it will break. It’s actually advice to be gentle in dealing with women, not overbearing or dominating or controlling.

(3) 7:19-25
And “O Adam, dwell, you and your wife, in Paradise and eat from wherever you will but do not approach this tree, lest you be among the wrongdoers.”

But Satan whispered to them to make apparent to them that which was concealed from them of their private parts. He said, “Your Lord did not forbid you this tree except that you become angels or become of the immortal.”

And he swore [by Allah ] to them, “Indeed, I am to you from among the sincere advisors.”

So he made **them **fall, through deception. And when they tasted of the tree, their private parts became apparent to them, and they began to fasten together over themselves from the leaves of Paradise. And their Lord called to them, “Did I not forbid you from that tree and tell you that Satan is to you a clear enemy?”

They said, “Our Lord, we have wronged ourselves, and if You do not forgive us and have mercy upon us, **we **will surely be among the losers.”

Allah ] said, “Descend, being to one another enemies. And for you on the earth is a place of settlement and enjoyment for a time.”

He said, “Therein you will live, and therein you will die, and from it you will be brought forth.”

20:121-123 And Adam and his wife ate of it, and their private parts became apparent to them, and they began to fasten over themselves from the leaves of Paradise. And Adam disobeyed his Lord and erred.

Then his Lord chose him and turned to him in forgiveness and guided [him].

Allah ] said, "Descend from Paradise - all, [your descendants] being enemies to one another. And if there should come to you guidance from Me - then whoever follows My guidance will neither go astray [in the world] nor suffer [in the Hereafter].

The Muhsin Khan translation of 7:24 says the enmity is between Shaytan and Adam+Hawwa, and not between Adam and Hawwa. The Saheeh Int’l translation of 20:123 says enmity between the descendents of Adam, and not between Adam and Hawwa. So I don’t really know (or care, to be frank) where Angelos got HIS interpretation from.

But I think you can see for yourself that he’s just trying to distort what the Qur’an says. The opinion of the Muslim scholars is that both Adam and Eve were forgiven and I don’t see any evidence to the contrary. 👍****
 
Amy wrote: but in Islam there is not a specific determination of what is a major and minor sin.

Basically (summarized version here) what makes a major sin is one where Allah promised a punishment either in this life for it, or in the next life. For example… adultery is a major sin, with a punishment in this life. Backbiting (not in 10 commandments btw) is a major sin, with a punishment in the next life. There are also some lists in hadith for example which say ‘these are major sins…’ and classify them as such.
----------------

First you say that there is no definition in Islam of what major and minor sins are. (this is after you’ve mention these sins several times)
Then you go on to say what Allah has said about major and minor sins.
What am I missing here?
Hmmm… let me see if I can explain it another way.

There is no single comprehensive list of all sins. There’s not even a single comprehensive list of major sins. And there is disagreement about what is actually a major vs. a minor sin. But the standard used to determine if something is a major sin is whether in the Qur’an or hadith there has been some specific punishment mandated for the people who do that–punishment in this life, or the next.

For example, you might read somewhere that “cursed are the people who do such-and-such.” That means such-and-such is a major sin. Or, if you read that “the people who do xyz will be burned” with gory details of their punishment (in the hereafter) then it means xyz is a major sin.

I think what you’re missing is just the organization of it all. There’s no single treatise laying out everything that is a major sin.
 
Bingo! Eve’s disobedience was and is a sin in Islam, as witnessed by hundreds of stonings, acid throwing (in their faces), honor killing, etc of women. This is further magnified by the Qur’an’s revelation that women are “weak” and have no brains of their own. Of course, Muslims will tell you otherwise, “Oh i wear the burkha because it brings out my feminity, blah blah blah”because it protects me from evil and gives me dignity, blah blah blah…" :rolleyes:
I should think that Moslems have quite a bit better understanding of islam, and the burqa, than some random islomophobe on some random website, no?

Make no mistake: Islam is, and cannot be percieved by any Christian as anything else, a demonic deception.
But those who have fallen victim to those teachings are no more demonic in and of themselves than you or I - in fact, the tone of your post seems to indicate that it isn’t exactly charity and goodwill towards your fellow man that’s driving you…
 
My point is that Its time to define religion in that all can be tolerated except those that are intolerable of other religions. But then there is the Catch 22… how do you not allow one for its intolerance without being intolerable of another. EASY make it a crime. we dont tolerate murderers in our Law. Right?
“All can be tolerated, except those that are intolerant of other religions”
How do you define “intolerant of other religions?” Because I could easily list examples that could be interpreted as the RCC being intolerant of all other Christian churches…does that mean that the RCC should be outlawed?

Slippery slope…

Islam itself, although a demonic deception that’s leading many into damnation, is not the problem from a secular point of view.
Islamism is.
 
Being someone who wears a headscarf myself (though I don’t cover my face) I’m pretty sure I know why I wear it more than some bloke ranting and raving on a forum who has undoubtedly had far less experience with it than I’ve had. 🙂
 
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