Does Islam worship the same God?

[hamba2han]

Has anyone forgotten that Abraham was NOT with them when they left Egypt? Even if they had taken the alternate route, there is no reason to accept Mecca as where Ishmael ended up anyway. If the Qur’an is wrong about that, why should I care about anything else?

The image that I had posted is the alternate route for the Exodus out of Egypt by Moses (pbuh) and the Israelites, NOT the journey of Hagar and Ishmael (pbuh)… and the ahadith teaches that Prophet Abraham (pbuh) did accompany his wife and son on this journey BTW.

 

[ralphinal]

The image that I had posted is the alternate route for the Exodus out of Egypt by Moses (pbuh) and the Israelites, NOT the journey of Hagar and Ishmael (pbuh)… and the ahadith teaches that Prophet Abraham (pbuh) did accompany his wife and son on this journey BTW.

Well, if the Qur’an is wrong, why would the ahadith be correct?

Why would he travel HUNDREDS of miles to get rid of them?

 

[hamba2han]

Let’s assume the alternative for Mt Sanai is true, Mecca is still some 600 miles away. It doesn’t make sense to say the Israelites traveled 600 miles south to Mecca, then travel back the 600 miles north and an additional 100 or so miles into Canaan. The point is, you still can’t associate Mecca with Paran.

"She called the well Be’er Lachai Roi. It is between Kadesh and Bered." … Genesis 16:14

Ibn Ezra the great Jewish sage identifies this well with Zimum (or in other versions, Zimzum), "where the Arabs hold an annual festival. This is Zemzem near Mecca. "

You can read more of the ‘Exodus in Arabia’ here.

 

[hamba2han]

Well, if the Qur’an is wrong, why would the ahadith be correct?

Why would he travel HUNDREDS of miles to get rid of them?

Neither the Qur’an nor the ahadith teaches that Prophet Abraham (pbuh) “got rid” of his wife and son.

It was a command of Allah that made Prophet Abraham (pbuh) bring his wife and son to the desolate place which later will become Makkah.

 

[ralphinal]

"She called the well Be’er Lachai Roi. It is between Kadesh and Bered." … Genesis 16:14

Ibn Ezra the great Jewish sage identifies this well with Zimum (or in other versions, Zimzum), "where the Arabs hold an annual festival. This is Zemzem near Mecca. "

You can read more of the ‘Exodus in Arabia’ here.

I would not use that site if I were you. It claims that over 40% of Jews live in Arabia/Yemen. In reality, over 80% live in the United States and Isreal. Check the math on the propaganda. Less then 1% live in the areas that he claims hold 40.

 

[ralphinal]

Neither the Qur’an nor the ahadith teaches that Prophet Abraham (pbuh) “got rid” of his wife and son.

It was a command of Allah that made Prophet Abraham (pbuh) bring his wife and son to the desolate place which later will become Makkah.

God made him travel hundreds of miles? Come on.

 

[hamba2han]

God made him travel hundreds of miles? Come on.

Do you have a problem with the idea that God will command Prophet Abraham (pbuh) to slaughter his only son?

 

[ralphinal]

Do you have a problem with the idea that God will command Prophet Abraham (pbuh) to slaughter his only son?

Nope. I would if it was my son.

 

[hamba2han]

I would not use that site if I were you. It claims that over 40% of Jews live in Arabia/Yemen. In reality, over 80% live in the United States and Isreal. Check the math on the propaganda. Less then 1% live in the areas that he claims hold 40.

The Jewish Rabbi Binyamin of Tudela did an extensive census of Jews in the world in approximately 1175 AD. 47.7% - FORTY SEVEN PERCENT - lived in Arabia/Yemen (465,000 of the 975,000 that he counted.

If you disagree with the above, then do you know how many Jews there were in Arabia in the year 1175?

 

[ralphinal]

The Jewish Rabbi Binyamin of Tudela did an extensive census of Jews in the world in approximately 1175 AD. 47.7% - FORTY SEVEN PERCENT - lived in Arabia/Yemen (465,000 of the 975,000 that he counted.

If you disagree with the above, then do you know how many Jews there were in Arabia in the year 1175?

Oops. I am sorry. I missed the 1175 part.

 

[TomaszA]

"She called the well Be’er Lachai Roi. It is between Kadesh and Bered." … Genesis 16:14

Ibn Ezra the great Jewish sage identifies this well with Zimum (or in other versions, Zimzum), "where the Arabs hold an annual festival. This is Zemzem near Mecca. "

Quoting an authority doesn’t change the fact that Mecca is too far south to be called Paran. In this regard Ibn Ezra would be mistaken.

 

[TomaszA]

The Jewish Rabbi Binyamin of Tudela did an extensive census of Jews in the world in approximately 1175 AD. 47.7% - FORTY SEVEN PERCENT - lived in Arabia/Yemen (465,000 of the 975,000 that he counted.

If you disagree with the above, then do you know how many Jews there were in Arabia in the year 1175?

Interesting, I thought Muhammad and his successors threw all the Jews out of the Arabian peninsula.

I would question whether you are accurately posting the information, and exactly what is meant by “Arabia” since you probably have in mind the peninsula.

 

[cathopologist]

Interesting, I thought Muhammad and his successors threw all the Jews out of the Arabian peninsula.

Exactly. How many Jews live in Mecca or Medina? Today or yesterday? No point talking about the ancient past, right?

 

[Angelos]

It is really a question of believing what is written in Genesis 21:17-21… plus accepting the real physical evidence of the well of Zam-Zam in Makkah… plus the historical acounts of the actual descendants of Ishmael (pbuh) regarding the location of where he lived.

Is there to be found an equally plausible alternative theory of where Biblical Paran is?

There is no historical or biblical source that associates the well Hagar saw with he well in Mecca. It is impossible to get the exact number and places of the wells that existed in those days.

Paran cannot be Mecca because Mecca was not considered a place in the wilderness whereas Paran was the name of an isolated place in the wilderness. The Koran depicts Mecca as an uncultivable valley, but never refers to it as wilderness. Hagar was directed to a a well in the wilderness of Paran for sure. When it was almost impossible for her to find some water in the wilderness, God intervened and helped her.

Let’s read the narrative:

Genesis 21:14-21
And she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Bersabee. And when the water in the bottle was spent, she cast the boy under one of the trees that were there. And she went her way, and sat overagainst him a great way off, as far as a bow can carry, for she said: I will not see the boy die: and sitting overagainst, she lifted up her voice and wept. And God heard the voice of the boy: and an angel of God called to Agar from heaven, saying: What art thou doing, Agar? fear not; for God hath heard the voice of the boy, from the place wherein he is. Arise, take up the boy, and hold him by the hand, for I will make him a great nation. And God opened her eyes: and she saw a well of water, and went and filled the bottle, and gave the boy to drink. And God was with him: and he grew, and dwelt in the wilderness, and became a young man, an archer. And he dwelt in the wilderness of Paran, and his mother took a wife for him out of the land of Egypt.

Ishmael did not live in a city, but in the wilderness of Paran. His mother took a wife for him from Egypt, which is far off Mecca.

 

[Sam_777]

From Matthew Henry’s Whole Bible Commentary for (Deuteronomy 33:1):

“There was a visible and illustrious discovery of the divine majesty, enough to convince and for ever silence atheists and infidels, to awaken and affect those that were most stupid and careless, and to put to shame all secret inclinations to other gods, v. 2. 1. His appearance was glorious: he shone forth like the sun when he goes forth in his strength. Even Seir and Paran, two mountains at some distance, were illuminated by the divine glory which appeared on Mount Sinai, and reflected some of the rays of it, so bright was the appearance, and so much taken notice of by the adjacent countries. To this the prophet alludes, to set forth the wonders of the divine providence, Hab. 3:3, 4; Ps. 18:7-9. The Jerusalem Targum has a strange gloss upon this, that, “when God came down to give the law, he offered it on Mount Seir to the Edomites, but they refused it, because they found in it, Thou shalt not kill. Then he offered it on Mount Paran to the Ishmaelites, but they also refused it, because they found in it, Thou shalt not steal; and then he came to Mount Sinai and offered it to Israel, and they said, All that the Lord shall say we will do.” I would not have transcribed so groundless a conceit but for the antiquity of it. 2. His retinue was glorious; he came with his holy myriads, as Enoch had long since foretold he should come in the last day to judge the world, Jude 14. These were the angels, those chariots of God in the midst of which the Lord was, on that holy place, Ps. 68:17. They attended the divine majesty, and were employed as his ministers in the solemnities of the day. Hence the law is said to be given by the disposition of angels, Acts 7:53; Heb. 2:2.”
biblebrowser.com/deuteronomy/33-1.htm

Please can someone explain the sentence in red to me.

 

[Sam_777]

Exactly. How many Jews live in Mecca or Medina? Today or yesterday? No point talking about the ancient past, right?

FYI: Mecca and Medina can’t even entered by non-Muslims.
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[planten]

God made him travel hundreds of miles? Come on.

**Because Sarah said Ishmael will not inherit with my son Issac. We do not believe that at all. But there is no way toback out because it is written in the bible OT.

There was no problem of vast land. Spiritual inheritance could not be stopped because it was with Abraham. So Abraham, under divine guidance, settled his son Ishmael in a veryfar deserted land in Paran. No one could be interested in that part of land and no king or his cronies would disturb the last prophet (Muhammad) who was to appear in that area.

Abraham had lot of trouble with the king in Iraq. Moses had much trouble with Pharoah. Jesus was arrested with the help of the Roman soldiers. No such thing happened in the case of Muhammad. Muhammad was able to establish the will of God on earth. All praise is to Allah.**

 

[planten]

Interesting, I thought Muhammad and his successors threw all the Jews out of the Arabian peninsula.

I would question whether you are accurately posting the information, and exactly what is meant by “Arabia” since you probably have in mind the peninsula.

**TomaszA, No, no. Many Jews were living in Madinah. Even the prophet took some loan from a Jew and could not pay back in time. that Jew demanded his money and used some very bad words to the prophet. Umar was there. He beacme angry and wanted to punish that Jew.

But the prophet stopped Umar and told him that he (prophet) was at fault. So nothing should be said to the lender. In the meantime some one came around who paid the money.

Mny Jews who were being persecuted by the christians, they (Jews) took refuge in the Muslim country. Same happened in Spain also. The Jews were not disturbed at all.**

 

[KingAlfred]

“Often Christianity is lumped together with Judaism and Islam as monotheist religions. I understand and accept that the three all worship only 1 God, but am questioning whether Muslims believe in the same God as Christians.”

I think they’re trying to worship the same God, but have failed to ‘get it right’, so to speak.

 

[Angelos]

**Because Sarah said Ishmael will not inherit with my son Issac. We do not believe that at all. But there is no way toback out because it is written in the bible OT.

There was no problem of vast land. Spiritual inheritance could not be stopped because it was with Abraham. So Abraham, under divine guidance, settled his son Ishmael in a veryfar deserted land in Paran. No one could be interested in that part of land and no king or his cronies would disturb the last prophet (Muhammad) who was to appear in that area.

Abraham had lot of trouble with the king in Iraq. Moses had much trouble with Pharoah. Jesus was arrested with the help of the Roman soldiers. No such thing happened in the case of Muhammad. Muhammad was able to establish the will of God on earth. All praise is to Allah.**

Today’s award for the most irrational post goes to dear planten

If Abraham had a lot of trouble in Iraq, how could he go to Mecca? LOL

Planten, while trying to justify Islamic wars and the violence in the Koran, you used to claim that Mohammad was severely persecuted by his enemies in Mecca. Now you have suddenly changed your mind?

Your Koran talks of an army of elephants attacking your idol Cube and disturbing those people. Wait a second, maybe your new Koran version omits that Surah!