Does it matter what denomination you are a part of?

[steve-b]

who have come been moved from death to life by the indwelling Holy Spirit, been adopted as sons and daughters of Christ, been made new Creations in Christ, and live a life of faith and service to God, serve His People, and share His Gospel with the world by acts of love and service and maintain their trust and belief in Christ till the end

Historically speaking, the answer to your question, has been the same for 2000 years. It may have more detail at times in the explanation, but the message is the same. Objectively speaking, the answer is no. There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. Can someone outside the Church change in the last minutes of life? Sure. And that is the caveat.

Going back in history (condensed for space)

1. Paragraph 14 Lumen Gentium (1965) http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_c...entium_en.html mentioned in previous posts
2. Council of Florence Ecumenical Council of Florence, (1438)
   “It firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the catholic church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the catholic church before the end of their lives; that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed his blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and the unity of the catholic church.” Session 11 as an aside, at Florence there were E Orthodox who came back in union with the chair of Peter
3. The Early Church Fathers 1st 5 centuries
4. From Scripture, Division / dissension διχοστασίαι from the Church, That same Greek word is used in both the following passages
   Rm 16:17-21 & Gal 5:19-21
   Note the consequences? (Gal 5:21] “I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. “ IOW they go to hell when they die in that sin.

 

[lanman87]

Historically speaking, the answer to your question, has been the same for 2000 years. It may have more detail at times in the explanation, but the message is the same. Objectively speaking, the answer is no. There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. Can someone outside the Church change in the last minutes of life? Sure. And that is the caveat.

Okay, so your position and what you say is the churches position is that these are the answers:

Are they indwelled by the Holy Spirit? NO
Are they adopted Children of God? NO
Have they been made new Creations in Christ? NO
Are they part of the body of Christ? NO
Will they be saved in the end? NO

Am I correct?

 

[Wannano]

lanman87:

steve-b:

Historically speaking, the answer to your question, has been the same for 2000 years. It may have more detail at times in the explanation, but the message is the same. Objectively speaking, the answer is no. There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. Can someone outside the Church change in the last minutes of life? Sure. And that is the caveat.

Okay, so your position and what you say is the churches position is that these are the answers:

I didn’t make the rules. My name isn’t on any of them. I’m just passing on information.

Are they indwelled by the Holy Spirit? NO
Are they adopted Children of God? NO
Have they been made new Creations in Christ? NO
Are they part of the body of Christ? NO
Will they be saved in the end? NO

Am I correct?

Think about the story of the prodigal son.

He left his father and father’s house & in extension his family to live the way he wanted to live.
When he left, was he still his father’s son? Yes

While away did the son keep all his father’s benefits? No

When he saw his errors, and repented and returned home, and his father saw him far off, what did the father say about this son who was away?

for this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found.’Lk 15:24

If that son stayed away, he was dead, lost.

Who told the story? Jesus

If you are saying non-Catholic Christians are the younger son, does that mean Catholics are the older brother?

You know Steve, if you are the only Catholic out there that is telling the actual truth you are to be congratulated for then there certainly is a lot of others telling the untruth.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

lanman87:

steve-b:

Historically speaking, the answer to your question, has been the same for 2000 years. It may have more detail at times in the explanation, but the message is the same. Objectively speaking, the answer is no. There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. Can someone outside the Church change in the last minutes of life? Sure. And that is the caveat.

Okay, so your position and what you say is the churches position is that these are the answers:

I didn’t make the rules. My name isn’t on any of them. I’m just passing on information.

Are they indwelled by the Holy Spirit? NO
Are they adopted Children of God? NO
Have they been made new Creations in Christ? NO
Are they part of the body of Christ? NO
Will they be saved in the end? NO

Am I correct?

Think about the story of the prodigal son.

He left his father and father’s house & in extension his family to live the way he wanted to live.
When he left, was he still his father’s son? Yes

While away did the son keep all his father’s benefits? No

When he saw his errors, and repented and returned home, and his father saw him far off, what did the father say about this son who was away?

for this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found.’Lk 15:24

If that son stayed away, he was dead, lost.

Who told the story? Jesus

If you are saying other Christians are the younger son, does that mean you are the older brother?

In the story,

1. the 2 sons were brothers.
2. Whether united or one leaving the family, they remain brothers to each other, and sons of the father
3. However, the one who left, as the father said, that son, that brother, was dead. He was lost until he repented, and returned…

 

[Wannano]

steve-b:

Historically speaking, the answer to your question, has been the same for 2000 years. It may have more detail at times in the explanation, but the message is the same. Objectively speaking, the answer is no. There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. Can someone outside the Church change in the last minutes of life? Sure. And that is the caveat.

Okay, so your position and what you say is the churches position is that these are the answers:

Are they indwelled by the Holy Spirit? NO
Are they adopted Children of God? NO
Have they been made new Creations in Christ? NO
Are they part of the body of Christ? NO
Will they be saved in the end? NO

Am I correct?

I wonder how long you will have to wait for a direct answer.

 

[lanman87]

I wonder how long you will have to wait for a direct answer.

I was hoping for a simple yes or no

 

[Wannano]

Wannano:

I wonder how long you will have to wait for a direct answer.

I was hoping for a simple yes or no

Maybe refer back to post #223 (I think) …something has changed.

 

[AlNg]

Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus

What does this mean? Why is the Roman Pope praying with Lutherans and the Archbishop of Canterbury if there is no salvation in their churches?

 

[MT1926]

I would like to give this a try. I know you post later on that you want a yes or no answer but it’s no that easy. Like I mentioned on another thread once you start limiting God to yes or no answers is when heresy arises.

Are they indwelled by the Holy Spirit?

Maybe yes maybe no. Jesus told us unless we are born of water and spirit, which is Baptism, you cannot enter the kingdom. St. Peter tells us to repent and be Baptized to receive the Holy Spirit. So I would say definetly yer yes if they were Baptized in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Baptism is the sign God gave us so that we may have assurance of entrance into the new covenant. Now if they weren’t Baptized my answer would be that’s God’s choice. Can He give someone the Holy Spirit without Baptism, sure He can, scripture even shows us this. Can that person have 100% assurance they received the Holy Spirit without Baptism? I don’t see how.

Are they adopted Children of God?

Same answer as above.

Have they been made new Creations in Christ?

Same answer.

Are they part of the body of Christ?

Same answer

Will they be saved in the end?

Only God knows the answer to this one. I’m sure there will be saved on both sides of the fence as well as unsaved. To me anyone who thinks they can answer this question with a definitive yes or no doesn’t have the faith/trust in Christ that they think they have.

but they have faith/Trust in Christ…

I think that is the whole point of this thread. Only Jesus knows who will be saved, however through His Church he has shown us how we can have assurance of our salvation. I think this is the main difference we can either trust and follow in all that He taught or a little of what He taught. Can you get to heaven if you only believe in one thing that Jesus taught, I think it is possible, but I also think it would be easier if we abide in everything He taught and not just pick and choose which ones we agree with.

Personally I think it’s easy to have faith when we are the ones who gets to choose what we want to believe in. Real faith in Christ though comes at times of trials and persecution. That’s what separates the SAINTS from the saints.

God Bless

 

[lanman87]

Maybe yes maybe no. Jesus told us unless we are born of water and spirit, which is Baptism, you cannot enter the kingdom. St. Peter tells us to repent and be Baptized to receive the Holy Spirit. So I would say definetly yer yes if they were Baptized in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Baptism is the sign God gave us so that we may have assurance of entrance into the new covenant. Now if they weren’t Baptized my answer would be that’s God’s choice. Can He give someone the Holy Spirit without Baptism, sure He can, scripture even shows us this. Can that person have 100% assurance they received the Holy Spirit without Baptism? I don’t see how.

Thank for your answer. It seems you answer lines up with almost all of Christianity-except maybe steve-b

We all think our churches teachings are the best way and the most accurate way to live out the Christian faith. However, we also understand that God give grace and faith to those who don’t “do things our way”. And ultimately God is the one who decides who will be welcomed into heaven who he will say “depart from me, for I never knew you”.

I’ve heard many Protestant and American Evangelical pastors say that Catholics have added to the teachings of the Gospel that was given to the church, But also say many Catholics have a genuine faith and love for Christ and their life and works give evidence to that faith. And those Catholics are among those who will be welcomed into heaven, despite the teachings of the Catholic church. In other words, it is possible to be saved as a Catholic, it is just harder.

It sounds like you are saying the same thing, only the other way around. There will be Protestants/Evangelicals who will be welcomed into heaven, despite the teaching of the protestant/evangelical church they attend. In other words, it is possible to be saved as a Baptist (or whatever) it is just harder.

 

[MT1926]

Thank for your answer. It seems you answer lines up with almost all of Christianity-except maybe steve-b

Not really sure what your hang up is with Steve’s answer is, he seems to have given what the Church actually says. That being said I would have to disagree with you that my answer lines up with all of Christianity. I run into people on a daily basis who claim to be filled with the Holy Spirit who believe they have done so by saying the sinners prayer or just because they know they are and believe that Baptism had nothing to do with. To be quite honest with you I think Baptism is slowly becoming a thing of the past and modern day Christians have taken “Faith Alone” to such a far extent that they no longer believe in Baptism. I have found quite a few also who believe that God isn’t the only who knows whether or not they or I am saved . They sure come off as they themselves know who is and who isn’t.

We all think our churches teachings are the best way and the most accurate way to live out the Christian faith.

Actually I believe Christ gave us ONE Church so that we may know the best and most accurate way. I also believe that Christ’s Church, whom Christ promised He would be with til the end of the age, knows. Sure I’ll be honest, I also believe that Church is the Catholic Church. Now if someone else doesn’t want to believe the same that is their prerogative. However, that leaves them with two options they can either prove that the Catholic Church isn’t the one true Church and in doing so they need to point to the Church that is or they can take the stance that Christ never intended to found a Church and never intended for us to know the the best and most accurate way to live out the Christian faith. Well if this is their stance then they have absolutely no way of being able to claim that anyone else is wrong and they are right. Which makes me wonder why they would argue, with fellow Christians, about Christ in the first place?

However, we also understand that God give grace and faith to those who don’t “do things our way”.

I would say God CAN give grace. His choice not ours. He told us what things we need to do HIS WAY and how we can know what HIS WAY is in order to get grace, if some want to say he didn’t tell us this that’s their choice. All I can say is good luck with that.

And ultimately God is the one who decides who will be welcomed into heaven who he will say “depart from me, for I never knew you”.

Totally agree, His choice not ours. Just wish more people who seem to say this actually believed it.

 

[MT1926]

I’ve heard many Protestant and American Evangelical pastors say that Catholics have added to the teachings of the Gospel that was given to the church

Yeah these guys drive me crazy. People that claim Catholics add to the teachings of the Apostles without actually being able to 100% prove that their interpretation of scripture is the correct one don’t seem to have much common sense. If they can’t prove, with infallible certainty, what the gospels say then they have no bases for making any claims about someone else’s interpretations.

But also say many Catholics have a genuine faith and love for Christ and their life and works give evidence to that faith.

That’s very kind of them

And those Catholics are among those who will be welcomed into heaven, despite the teachings of the Catholic church. In other words, it is possible to be saved as a Catholic, it is just harder.

All I can say here is these pastors have absolutely no idea what the Catholic Church teaches. I would love to see them bring their Bibles to a Catholic Mass and just try to keep up with all of the scripture said in mass. I can just picture a bloody mess of paper cuts as they frantically try to turn the pages.

How about purgatory? How does believing that we are still sinners on this earth and that we long for Jesus to purify us before entering heaven pull us away from Christ? If anything it seems to pull us closer.

How does praying for our loved ones, who pass away, pull us away from Christ. Is any prayer worthless in God’s eyes? Think about it a Catholic is still loving their neighbor even after they have gone from this world. How does loving your neighbor pull you away from Christ.

It sounds like you are saying the same thing, only the other way around. There will be Protestants/Evangelicals who will be welcomed into heaven, despite the teaching of the protestant/evangelical church they attend. In other words, it is possible to be saved as a Baptist (or whatever) it is just harder.

Not sure what I said that would bring you to this conclusion. The only thing I said is I think it would be easier if we abide in everything He taught and not just pick and choose. It’s up to everyone’s own personal conscience to decide if they are abiding in all of what Christ taught or only what they want to pick and choose. In the end Jesus will decide.

I’m not in management I’m in sales. His choice not mine.

God Bless

 

[MichaelP3]

Not sure what I said that would bring you to this conclusion. The only thing I said is I think it would be easier if we abide in everything He taught and not just pick and choose. It’s up to everyone’s own personal conscience to decide if they are abiding in all of what Christ taught or only what they want to pick and choose. In the end Jesus will decide.

I’m not in management I’m in sales. His choice not mine.

I can imagine at times using this exact statement as a reply to various posts.

Regards

 

[MT1926]

I can imagine at times using this exact statement as a reply to various posts.

Regards

You would use this exact same statement because you believe Catholics are picking and choosing which verses of scripture Jesus actually meant you need to do in order to abide in him and that they are not believing all of the verses of scripture.

That seems a little confusing to me?

God Bless

 

[MichaelP3]

I think I understand your confusement.

Yes. I see this many times used against non-Catholic Christians on here.

I mean all Christians believe this. So just stating it serves no purpose as then all Christians can use it and as is clear, all think they back it up. And then the one side thinking “I got him” and the other side thinking “what is he saying” but still both go to bed exactly the same way they woke up.

Just a thought.

Regards

 

[MT1926]

I mean all Christians believe this. So just stating it serves no purpose as then all Christians can use it and as is clear, all think they back it up. And then the one side thinking “I got him” and the other side thinking “what is he saying” but still both go to bed exactly the same way they woke up.

Well maybe if you read our entire conversation you would see that I wasn’t posting it as a “I got him”.

Our entire conversation this past week was he kept claiming that the Catholic Church wasn’t following what the Apostles taught. I asked him for his evidence and he would sight Church Fathers on the Trinity on such and such a date and then say see this one doesn’t count because it was added on such and such a date. This led to a discussion of who gets to draw a line in the sand of the cut off date of which Church Father or which Church teaching that was finally written down was what the Apostles taught. I got no response, which tells me in the end he gets to pick and choose what interpretation of scripture is what the Apostles taught. So I pointed to Jesus saying He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me and I in them and the real presence was taught even before the Trinity. We went back and forth for a while and 7 days later based on this earlier discussion we get to my response about who gets to decide how Jesus abides in us, Him or us.

That’s basically all I was getting at. Wasn’t trying to say gotcha. I was just trying to point out that I wasn’t claiming I know who can and cannot be saved and how easy or difficult it might be.

God Bless

 

[MichaelP3]

You and me both brother

 

[Wannano]

Salmonslayer:

Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus

What does this mean? Why is the Roman Pope praying with Lutherans and the Archbishop of Canterbury if there is no salvation in their churches?

I was gone all day and am dumbfounded no one has an answer for you!

 

[Wannano]

Thank for your answer. It seems you answer lines up with almost all of Christianity-except maybe steve-b

Not really sure what your hang up is with Steve’s answer is, he seems to have given what the Church actually says.

---

Hi, my hangup with Steve is that he is trying to say “no” without having to say it. I took your answer as “yes” with conditions. If Steve is representing the Church’s current viewpoint then you are not in alignment with your Church.

This is all about as confusing as it can get.

 

[MT1926]

Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus

I wasn’t in that conversation.

Maybe this will help @AlNg

Is There Really "No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church?" | Catholic Answers

What "No Salvation Outside the Church" Means | Catholic Answers Magazine

God Bless