Does the SSPX speak uncharitably of the Jews?

[TNT]

Am I missing something here? Isn’t the SSPX against the Second Vatican Council’s Nostra Aetate declaration of 1965, which removed the characterization of Jews as “Christ-killers” and opened the way for Catholic-Jewish dialogue? Don’t they maintain that current church policy towards Jews, is the product of Jewish influence in the church?

Here is, if interested, the SSPX position on Nostra Aetate.
In the meantime, we should not co-mingle Jew ancestry with Judaism…a set of religious beliefs primarily governed by the Talmud.
Unfortunately, VAT II does not make any clear distinction, and hopelessly confounds the distinction.
Jesus of Nazereth was the greatest Jew who ever lived, the Talmud notwithstanding.

 

[chosen_people]

Here is, if interested, the SSPX position on Nostra Aetate.
In the meantime, we should not co-mingle Jew ancestry with Judaism…a set of religious beliefs primarily governed by the Talmud.
Unfortunately, VAT II does not make any clear distinction, and hopelessly confounds the distinction.
Jesus of Nazereth was the greatest Jew who ever lived, the Talmud notwithstanding.

reply

The Talmud

A collection of rabbinical writings that interpret, explain and apply the Torah scriptures. The Talmud was written between the second and fifth century CE, but Orthodox Jews believe it was revealed to Moses along with the Torah and preseved orally until it was written down. The Talmud is thus known as the “Oral Torah,” with the first five books of the Tanakh designated the “Written Torah.”

Role of the Talmud in Judaism
In Orthodox Judaism, the Oral Torah is accepted as equally sacred, inspired, and authoritative as the Written Torah.

Organization of the Talmud

There are actually two Talmuds: the Jerusalem Talmud and the Babylonian Talmud. The former was composed circa 500 CE and the latter was completed around 600 CE. By the 11th century, the Babylonian Talmud had established supremacy and today it is the one that is meant by “the Talmud.”
The Talmud consists of two parts: the Mishnah and the Gemara. The Mishnah is rabbinic commentary on the Torah and the Gemara is rabbinic commentary on the Mishnah.

Mishnah
The Mishnah (“a teaching that is repeated”) is organized as a law book, and consists of legal rulings and teachings by rabbis of the first through third centuries CE. It was codified by Rabbi Judah Ha-Nasi around 200 CE and divided into “six orders,” or shisha sedarim in Hebrew (the Talmud is known colloquially as “shas” for short), each of which addresses a different aspect of Jewish life:

Zera’im (“Seeds”) - blessings, tithes, temple offerings, agriculture
Mo’ed (“Set Feasts”) - Sabbath laws and holiday observances
Nashim (“Women”) - marriage and divorce
Nezikin (“Damages”) - idolatry, matters of civil law, and the Pirke Avot
Kodashim (“Holy Things”) - sacrificial system in the Temple, dietary laws
Tohorot (“Purities”) - ritual purity and impurity
Each Order contains seven to twelve subdivisions called tractates (masekhtot). There are a total of 63 tractates in the Mishnah: . The tractates are further divided into chapters. The most commonly read tractate is the Pirke Avot (Sayings of the Fathers), a collection of ethical rules.

Gemara
The Gemara (“completion”) is primarily a commentary on the Mishnah. Like the Mishnah, it contains matters of Jewish law (halakhah), but it also includes stories, legends, and sermons (aggadah, “discourse”).

“The Talmud notwithstanding” what? What sort of terrible things do you believe are written in the Talmud?

Please explain the Vatican II “confusion” you stated and what you mean by “we should not co-mingle Jew ancestry with Judaism…a set of religious beliefs primarily governed by the Talmud”.

 

[WenckebachCath]

wouldn’t “I do not like the schismatic SSPX”
Or
“believe that actual antisemitism and racism is rampant among them.”

actually be a subject to the same accusation toward you of bigotry?

Are the following quotes antisemitic or racist?
Pope Innocent IV: “And that you [King Saint Louis IX] order both the aforesaid abusive books [The Talmud] condemned by the same doctors and generally all the books with their glosses which were examined and condemned by them to be burned by fire wherever they can be found throughout your entire kingdom, strictly forbidding that Jews henceforth have Christian nurses or servants, that the sons of a free woman may not serve the sons of a bondwoman, but as slaves condemned by the Lord, whose death they wickedly plotted, they at least outwardly recognize themselves as slaves of those whom the death of Christ made free and themselves slaves. So we may commend the zeal of your sincerity in the Lord with due praises.” (The Wicked Perfidy of the Jews)
Pope Gregory IX: “They ought to know the yoke of perpetual enslavement because of their guilt. See to it that the perfidious Jews never in the future become insolent, but that they always suffer publicly the shame of their sin in servile fear.” (Epistle to the Hierarchy of Germany)

Pope Paul IV: “It is too absurd and pointless that the Jews, whom their own guilt condemns to slavery, under the pretence that Christian piety suffers and tolerates their coexistence, pay back [with wickedness] the mercy received from Christians.” (Cum Nimis Absurdum)

Were these statements infallable ones, or merely those influenced by the European culture of a bygone era?

 

[TNT]

Were these statements infallable ones, or merely those influenced by the European culture of a bygone era?

ALL truth is relative, Right?
If we wait long enough, all the writings of JPII will be relative only to “that age”.
Alot of what was written in those papal prouncements had nothing to do with that “bygone era”.

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

no they do not. i’ve been an sspx laity for over a year now, and that is simply not true. it is highly uncommon. no prejudice is not common in the sspx.

Bishop Williamson does not have a very good opinion of Jewry (not that ones opinion of Jewry makes one a good or bad Catholic), and went as far as to attend a holocaust revisionist conference in Canada in which he was almost arrested. He met there with Ernst Zundel, who is most definitely an anti-Jew/Israel (semite includes arabs too, so I’m not using that line on purpose).

 

[Malcolm_McLean]

Are the following quotes antisemitic or racist?
Pope Innocent IV: “And that you [King Saint Louis IX] order both the aforesaid abusive books [The Talmud] condemned by the same doctors and generally all the books with their glosses which were examined and condemned by them to be burned by fire wherever they can be found throughout your entire kingdom, strictly forbidding that Jews henceforth have Christian nurses or servants, that the sons of a free woman may not serve the sons of a bondwoman, but as slaves condemned by the Lord, whose death they wickedly plotted, they at least outwardly recognize themselves as slaves of those whom the death of Christ made free and themselves slaves. So we may commend the zeal of your sincerity in the Lord with due praises.” (The Wicked Perfidy of the Jews)

Pope Gregory IX: “They ought to know the yoke of perpetual enslavement because of their guilt. See to it that the perfidious Jews never in the future become insolent, but that they always suffer publicly the shame of their sin in servile fear.” (Epistle to the Hierarchy of Germany)

Pope Paul IV: “It is too absurd and pointless that the Jews, whom their own guilt condemns to slavery, under the pretence that Christian piety suffers and tolerates their coexistence, pay back [with wickedness] the mercy received from Christians.” (Cum Nimis Absurdum)

Were these statements infallable ones, or merely those influenced by the European culture of a bygone era?

They are pastoral teachings, telling Christian rulers how to deal with Jews living among them, at that particular time.

Though they seem very oppressive and prejudiced to modern ears, they have to be read in context. In medieval Europe, the vast majority of people were peasants tied to the land. It was not permitted to pack up your belongings and seek your fortune in the big town as a market trader. So what the Popes are really saying is that Jews should not be given privileges above those of the Christian population. This was in fact often happened. Because Jews could never make a grab for power, rulers tended to rely on them for financial administration and other delicate tasks of government too risky to entrust to ambitious nobles.

 

[chosen_people]

They are pastoral teachings, telling Christian rulers how to deal with Jews living among them, at that particular time.

Though they seem very oppressive and prejudiced to modern ears, they have to be read in context. In medieval Europe, the vast majority of people were peasants tied to the land. It was not permitted to pack up your belongings and seek your fortune in the big town as a market trader. So what the Popes are really saying is that Jews should not be given privileges above those of the Christian population. This was in fact often happened. Because Jews could never make a grab for power, rulers tended to rely on them for financial administration and other delicate tasks of government too risky to entrust to ambitious nobles.

Oh if only we were talking about the past! If you want to read about the “Jewish Conspiracy” and how Jews subvert good Catholics in the modern world according to the SSPX I suggest you go to the source: sspx.ca/Angelus/2001_January/Fr_Denis_Fahey_Life_Work.htm
and don’t forget the inspired teachings of his inspired student Father Charles Edward Coughlin and the Christian Front.

Thank God for them and the SSPX or I and my fellow Jews would never have known about “Jewish Naturalism” our views about the Talmud, or even of our grand conspiracy of subversion. I am personally disappointed that I am bear the curse of deicide but in my defense I can only say I have no personal recollection of the incident and can only presume that I was quite young. I am glad to know that the ideas they espoused about the Jews are not “antisemitism”, that makes it much easier for me and my fellow Jews to accept.

Jews respect and tolerate all people of all faiths and beliefs. Therefore in order to ensure that we do not accidentally subvert adherents of the SSPX I and my fellow Jews avoid any social contact with them and will not hire them for work. Where possible we prefer to gather all SSPX adherents in one living area, strictly for their own protection. We call the area a “ghetto”. Of course if they want to leave their protected area they are required to wear special badges, once again this is strictly for their protection.

Oh wait. I made a mistake. I got it backwards. That’s what the Christians did to the Jews.

 

[chosen_people]

there is no anti semitic influence in the sspx if that is what your referrimg to?

You do understand that there is no “naturalistic Messianic domination of the Jewish nation over all the others”, that the supposed Jewish attitude to the Talmud is complete nonsense, that there is no Jewish conspiracy to subvert Christians from their ways?

There are only two possibilities. Either you do not grasp the rampant inherent antisemitism or you do not belong to a true sspx church.

 

[Marilena]

You do understand that there is no “naturalistic Messianic domination of the Jewish nation over all the others”, that the supposed Jewish attitude to the Talmud is complete nonsense, that there is no Jewish conspiracy to subvert Christians from their ways?

There are only two possibilities. Either you do not grasp the rampant inherent antisemitism or you do not belong to a true sspx church.

since my priest is coming over for dinner tonight, why don’t i speak with him about this issue? where is a so called conspiracy by the jews to to subvert Christians from their ways?

i get tired of listening to all this Jewish conspiracy stuff.
its getting old and worn out. iam NOT anti semitic and neither are the priests that i know of. i do go to a true SSPX chapel thank you very much.

maybe it is as you say, iam not “grasping” what your trying to say. Jesus said to lov eone another as I have loved you. i don’t see that command being broken in our chapel at all. if it was, why then is our church mutlicultural? anyone regardless of race can come to our church. or do you think that is utter garbage? its not. we have many different nationalities in our church. if a jewish man or woman wanted to come to our church we would NOT turn them away. period.

i wont respond tho this thread anymore because i fear that i may be uncharitable, and i do not want to be that way to others. i follow the rules of CAF and try to obey Jesus’s command to love on another as He has loved us.

let me say this, i go to an SSPX chapel, and that is the way it is. it is not going to change. this is the end of the conversation for me. i wish you all a lovely time here, and please, remember the rules of CAF. we must respect each other. that has been the case in this post. it is only a reminder.

 

[Marilena]

one last point on this issue before i sign off this forum.
if i ever see any type of racial discrimination at any sspx chapel i will not go back. that is a fact. i was subjected to intense racial discrimination when i was a jw, and i will not tolerate any type of discrimination. i do not make a scene, i just do not go back. it hurts me when people discriminate against anyone. i have seen only love amongst our congregation, and have never seen anything less. that was one of the reasons why i love the Catholic Church. i have never seen anyone in the Church be it in the NO or the TLM ever show any signs of discrimination towards anyone. i think the church is very clear on discrimination. does it not state in the code of canon law that we cannot force anyone to be a Catholic? i believe it does. also, does it not state that we must respect peoples belief even if we do not agree with it?
again, correct me if iam wrong. i respect anyones right to believe what they want. i also respect every nationality on this planet. we are all God’s children are we not? we must love one another. that is a commandment directly from God Himself.
if the whole world followed that one command there would be no discrimination or war or hatred anywhere.there would be no greed, no me ism, and so on. that one command if followed by all mankind would bring instant peace upon the world.

 

[Jean_Anthony]

More heat than light is being generated. Please be charitable, folks, per the rules of the forum.

Jean Anthony

 

[bear06]

To be fair, I don’t think the whole of SSPX follows their leaders on this issue but their leaders do hold some less then charitable views which should make one wonder about the SSPX in general. Here’s a compilation of quotes with the links to the documents in their entirety.

jloughnan.tripod.com/sparwill.htm

And more from Mr. O and a few others:
jloughnan.tripod.com/thejews.htm
ratzingerfanclub.com/blog/2003/12/anti-semitism-another-obstacle-to-sspx.html

 

[chosen_people]

one last point on this issue before i sign off this forum.
if i ever see any type of racial discrimination at any sspx chapel i will not go back. that is a fact. i was subjected to intense racial discrimination when i was a jw, and i will not tolerate any type of discrimination. i do not make a scene, i just do not go back. it hurts me when people discriminate against anyone. i have seen only love amongst our congregation, and have never seen anything less. that was one of the reasons why i love the Catholic Church. i have never seen anyone in the Church be it in the NO or the TLM ever show any signs of discrimination towards anyone. i think the church is very clear on discrimination. does it not state in the code of canon law that we cannot force anyone to be a Catholic? i believe it does. also, does it not state that we must respect peoples belief even if we do not agree with it?
again, correct me if iam wrong. i respect anyones right to believe what they want. i also respect every nationality on this planet. we are all God’s children are we not? we must love one another. that is a commandment directly from God Himself.
if the whole world followed that one command there would be no discrimination or war or hatred anywhere.there would be no greed, no me ism, and so on. that one command if followed by all mankind would bring instant peace upon the world.

It was not my intention to impugn you personally and from that perspective please accept my sincerest apologies.

That having been said I was merely stating the official position of SSPX as regards Jews, antisemitism and deicide.

I would hope that many of the adherents of SSPX share your repugnance to antisemitism though from many of the posts on the different threads of this forum, I know that this is not the case.

The SSPX view is the classic old Christian antisemitism that led to Jewish persecution for two millenium, including death, forced conversions and expulsions. It is generation after generation of little Jewish boys and girls being asked “why they killed Jesus?” It is quite fitting that the Catholic Church leader most admired by the SSPX was involved in an internationally known case of kidnapping and forced conversion of a Jew, made the Jews of Rome live in ghettoes, forced them to listen to Catholic sermons 4 times a year, and pay a special tax to support schools for converts to Catholicism.

In the early 1960’s a wonderful thing happened. The Catholic church through Vatican II finally came to grips with this insiduous antisemitism and rejected it, allowing for the first time in 2000 years a new era for mutal tolerance and respect. That new era has also found its expression here in many threads on this forum, and it has warmed my heart!

The SSPX rejects this new era of placing an end to Catholic Church antisemitism just as it rejects all aspects of Vatican II. The official views of the SSPX are not secret and may be found on its website. You can learn about the “collective curse” on the Jews, their “ignorance”, “Jewish naturalism” and things about the “Talmud in Judaism” that no Jew ever knew before.It will be explained to you that these things are not “antisemitic” and in fact any claim that it is antisemitism is merely part that whole “Jewish naturalism” thing that Jews do to good Christians.

The post asked Does the SSPX speak uncharitably of the Jews? The answer to that is a resounding YES!!!

 

[bones_IV]

It was not my intention to impugn you personally and from that perspective please accept my sincerest apologies.

That having been said I was merely stating the official position of SSPX as regards Jews, antisemitism and deicide.

I would hope that many of the adherents of SSPX share your repugnance to antisemitism though from many of the posts on the different threads of this forum, I know that this is not the case.

The SSPX view is the classic old Christian antisemitism that led to Jewish persecution for two millenium, including death, forced conversions and expulsions. It is generation after generation of little Jewish boys and girls being asked “why they killed Jesus?” It is quite fitting that the Catholic Church leader most admired by the SSPX was involved in an internationally known case of kidnapping and forced conversion of a Jew, made the Jews of Rome live in ghettoes, forced them to listen to Catholic sermons 4 times a year, and pay a special tax to support schools for converts to Catholicism.

In the early 1960’s a wonderful thing happened. The Catholic church through Vatican II finally came to grips with this insiduous antisemitism and rejected it, allowing for the first time in 2000 years a new era for mutal tolerance and respect. That new era has also found its expression here in many threads on this forum, and it has warmed my heart!

The SSPX rejects this new era of placing an end to Catholic Church antisemitism just as it rejects all aspects of Vatican II. The official views of the SSPX are not secret and may be found on its website. You can learn about the “collective curse” on the Jews, their “ignorance”, “Jewish naturalism” and things about the “Talmud in Judaism” that no Jew ever knew before.It will be explained to you that these things are not “antisemitic” and in fact any claim that it is antisemitism is merely part that whole “Jewish naturalism” thing that Jews do to good Christians.

The post asked Does the SSPX speak uncharitably of the Jews? The answer to that is a resounding YES!!!

So the Catholic Church before Vatican II was anti-semitic?

 

[Marilena]

To be fair, I don’t think the whole of SSPX follows their leaders on this issue but their leaders do hold some less then charitable views which should make one wonder about the SSPX in general. Here’s a compilation of quotes with the links to the documents in their entirety.

jloughnan.tripod.com/sparwill.htm

and more from Mr. O and a few others:

jloughnan.tripod.com/thejews.htm
ratzingerfanclub.com/blog/2003/12/anti-semitism-another-obstacle-to-sspx.html

iam going to have to have a serious discussion with the priest…
if this is indeed the attitude held amongst the SSPX ( the majority of the laity i know are not like that and that is the truth ) i will not go back. i cannot and will not go back if this is fact.

 

[chosen_people]

So the Catholic Church before Vatican II was anti-semitic?

At the very least it can be said that the Catholic Church before Vatican II espoused doctrines which led to antisemitism and to the persecution of Jews. Vatican II recognized this.

No person is capable of explaining “Jewish Naturalism” or the “collective guilt of the Jews for the crime of deicide”,or “Jewish ignorance” or other pre Vatican II (and current SSPX) doctrines concerning Jews to his children without creating a new generation of antisemites.

If the Church leaders and their adherents who persecuted the Jews for 2000 years including murder, forced conversions and expulsions were in fact acting against Christianity and the Catholic Church is not for me to decide. I can only say that It didn’t make one iota of difference to the victims.

 

[bear06]

iam going to have to have a serious discussion with the priest…
if this is indeed the attitude held amongst the SSPX ( the majority of the laity i know are not like that and that is the truth ) i will not go back. i cannot and will not go back if this is fact.

I believe most of these quotes come directly from the SSPX websites. Follow the links to see.

 

[Marilena]

I believe most of these quotes come directly from the SSPX websites. Follow the links to see.

i did. i was appalled to say the least

 

[bear06]

Actually, I thought these linked directly to the SSPX website but this one does. Sorry.
romancatholicism.org/bp-williamson.htm

Not sure who’s site this is. I was just trying to find direct link to the SSPX site. I also find that if you copy and paste some of the text of the quotes, you can find other links directly to their site.

 

[bones_IV]

At the very least it can be said that the Catholic Church before Vatican II espoused doctrines which led to antisemitism and to the persecution of Jews. Vatican II recognized this.

No person is capable of explaining “Jewish Naturalism” or the “collective guilt of the Jews for the crime of deicide”,or “Jewish ignorance” or other pre Vatican II (and current SSPX) doctrines concerning Jews to his children without creating a new generation of antisemites.

If the Church leaders and their adherents who persecuted the Jews for 2000 years including murder, forced conversions and expulsions were in fact acting against Christianity and the Catholic Church is not for me to decide. I can only say that It didn’t make one iota of difference to the victims.

Which doctrines? There are no Church doctrines in the past that are any such thing. Though people may have misunderstood them.