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Catholic29
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Not to be uncharitable, but in my opinion Bishop Williamson is a nutcase. One only need read the link above.
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bear06
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I don’t think he’s got his head on straight either but I must point out that I don’t know anything about the above site other than it linked directly to the SSPX which is what I wanted to provide Marilena. Some of the sites that talk about Williamson are actually very racist sites and while they may be correct in their quotes, I like to find things from the horses mouths.
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Marilena
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thanks again bearo6.
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bear06
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This article has more on Bishop Williamson including some of his ideas on the jews. It’s really just more of the same but from a Catholic source. No links though. It was widely published with no lawsuits though! 
Sigh!
sspx.agenda.tripod.com/id9.html
In my personal opinion, Bishop Williamson is the one holding up the deal with Rome. I think the SSPX is worried about losing America. I actually don’t think that would happen. I think there would just be a schism of the schism. Well, it’s just my specualtion. Again, let’s just pray for an agreement soon!
Sigh!sspx.agenda.tripod.com/id9.html
In my personal opinion, Bishop Williamson is the one holding up the deal with Rome. I think the SSPX is worried about losing America. I actually don’t think that would happen. I think there would just be a schism of the schism. Well, it’s just my specualtion. Again, let’s just pray for an agreement soon!
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chosen_people
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An easy starting place is post #7 above.
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CatholicNick
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Obviously you have no understanding of what Doctrine is.
Pope’s opinion does not = Doctrine.
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bear06
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Geez! Even Wikipedia lists some quotes. They give sources with links in the footnotes.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Williamson
BTW, what’s with this quote?!
“Universities are for ideas, ideas are not for true girls”
ARgh! The more I look the more I think like Catholic29!
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Williamson
BTW, what’s with this quote?!
“Universities are for ideas, ideas are not for true girls”
ARgh! The more I look the more I think like Catholic29!
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chosen_people
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Am I to understand that there was no antisemitism, no church policy, no persecution? It doesn’t matter what you call it. If there was a doctrine - was the persecution contrary to that doctrine? If there was no official doctrine- than its irrelevant to
the discussion. The official “whatever” of the SSPX concerning the Jews, antisemitism and deicide may be found on their website and the “whatever” concerning these same matters had changes made to it in Vatican II.
This is a recurring problem (see my posts on the Finaly affair and the article published on a Catholic website trying to minimize the affair and fudge the facts). These things have to be faced head on and dealt with or we can never move on.
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bones_IV
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Nobody is denying that there were anti-semitic persecutions.
Read here:
Pius XI,
Mit Brennender Sorge (with burning anxiety)
- Whoever exalts race, or the people, or the State, or a particular form of State, or the depositories of power, or any other fundamental value of the human community – however necessary and honorable be their function in worldly things – whoever raises these notions above their standard value and divinizes them to an idolatrous level, distorts and perverts an order of the world planned and created by God; he is far from the true faith in God and from the concept of life which that faith upholds.
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chosen_people
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There is a truly welcome side to the efforts to seperate antisemitism and Catholic church doctrine in that it indicates that good Catholics abhor antisemitsm and do not consider it a part of their religious faith.
I think that a discussion of the historical reasons behind Christian antisemitism is less important than is understanding its deep roots, its forms and the suffering it created, I find that the true breath and depth of Christian persecution of the Jews and the role of the Catholic Church in that persecution over two millenium, is not properly known and understood. Too often discussions on this forum take the form of a debate whether the Cruaders massacred “only” 20,000 - 30,000 Jews or whether the number was higher.
I think it is also incumbent that those people who would truly learn about Christian persecution of the Jews go to sources on the internet that may be more objective and detailed than those presented in a Catholic apologetics site.
The most important thing to know is that Christian antisemitism is still alive and well.
In the 1930’s a Catholic priest enthralled millions of North American listeners on the radio claiming that the Jews were undermining good Christian values, had caused the economic depression and wished to lead the United States to a “Jewish” war against Hitler.
Today in the 21st Century the rhetoric is that Jews are undermining good Christian values (“the war on Christmas” for example, “ACLU”), control all the money and have all the political power (“the Jewish lobby” “neocons”) and have led the United States and Britain to a “Jewish” war in Iraq, confrontation with Iran and are also to blame for 9/11.
The above is the classic Catholic pre Vatican II antisemitism of Denis Fahey and Charles Coughlin- it is the rhetoric of the SSPX. It is important to learn about these people and their despicable ideology. Only then will people have the knowledge to fight antisemitism.
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bones_IV
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The ACLU is undermining Christian values in America that is not anti-semitism! And is a lie. In my experience many Jews have used their religion as an excuse.
catholicleague.org/catalyst/2005_catalyst/1205.htm#ADL
catholicleague.org/06press_releases/quarter%201/060207_ginsburg.htm
Do you realize that the ACLU is a socialist organization? Are you aware of that?
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chosen_people
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Walked right into that one didn’t you! Is the ACLU a “Jewish” organization?
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bones_IV
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Not that I’m conscience of. Most of the ACLU are non-christians and atheists. The ACLU is taking people of faith to court every day it seems for our stand on issues. From the 10 Commandments to life issues. From a prayer in public to private reflection time. CLU is suing the Gideons for placing bibles in schools and other places. Atheists and other not for profit groups can still speak in the blacked out times. Just not Faith based groups. Non-faith based groups do not have to adapt their literature. The matter of calling the sign of ones faith jewelry comes into play. Someone can wear into schools things that promote evolution, but, not Creationism. Both are based on faith.
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bones_IV
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The SSPX rejects Vatican II and is a right wing protestant organization.
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CatholicNick
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bones_IV
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Tell that to Father Levis.
Seriously, that’s just a silly thing to say.
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batteddy
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Here is the story of how Catholics should view the Jews:
Each human is born free of personal sin, but still carries original sin which is to say we are fallen from our ancestors previous position of glory. So to the Jews are born free of personal sin, but are born outside the fullness of the special status their ancestors once had. Baptism is the solution to both.
[Edited by moderator for violation of the rules.]
Abel is Christ, the shepherd, who offers acceptable sacrifice to God. The Jews are become symbolically Cain. They wander the earth in exile, but God still protects them and punishes those who hurt them.
It is a shame that people started confusing symbol with literal reality. No one is saying that the Christian should view each individual Jew as something bad, as a murderer or Christ-killer or bad person. But symbolically, Church has triumphed [edited by moderator]. As a biblical archetype, a literary trope, “the Jew” is Cain, Esau, the fallen branch[edited by moderator]. But only as representing all Sinners (even as idolatry commonly represents all sin). If God had no problem using that symbolism, neither do I…as long as we realize it doesn’t mean every Jew as an individual is evil (and niether is every Christian good).
Each human is born free of personal sin, but still carries original sin which is to say we are fallen from our ancestors previous position of glory. So to the Jews are born free of personal sin, but are born outside the fullness of the special status their ancestors once had. Baptism is the solution to both.
[Edited by moderator for violation of the rules.]
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chosen_people
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This was written by an American Catholic teenager who wishes to become a priest.
What is the source for such venemous pathological hatred towards the Jews?
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batteddy
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At least you recognize our feelings and beliefs are towards “the Jews” and not actual, individual Jews. Groups don’t exist (in the ontological sense), the are abstractions, but individuals do.
But “venomous pathological hatred”…oh please. I have many friends at my high school who are jewish, and the order of traditional priests I want to join works out at the Jewish Community Center! We certainly don’t hate them even if we know they are now the symbolic contrast or opposite of the Church.
One thing I am very much against, and which I see completely manifest in “the Jews” is so-called political identity. Like I said, groups do not exist, individuals do. Groups are symbolic, abstractions. Therefore, I do not like it at all when people identify with things about themselves. When people consider themselves, “the blacks,” “the Jews,” “the gays,” “the Americans,” “the whites,”…etc. As if those things were nouns and not adjectives. When people label themselves and strongly identify with a group, defining themselves. Even Catholicism should never become a political identity by which people define themselves, as that is against its very nature which is Universality. Zionism has only exacerbated these ethno-centric tendencies in the Jews (though I admit such a reaction is understandable for persecuted minorities), and though I do not believe in a world-wide conspiracy or any such nonsense…one can feel a little frustrated paranoia when what one says about “the Jews” gets censored (in America at least) in a way that something said about pagans or muslims never would (in America at least).
Heck! On our own catholic boards, if a protestant argued that Rome was the whore of babylon…we’d allow it and debate with them. When I make similar remarks regarding Synagogue…people freak out and cover it up. That is one thing that I think people are annoyed with “the Jews” for. That is to say, the abstraction of the Jews as a political group. Because, of course, jewish individuals are individuals and I have no personal animosity towards them.
And about Rome as the whore of babylon…many of my protestant friends believe this and try to talk to me about it and thing “the Catholics” are the church of the antichrist and such. But they don’t hate me individually and I know it. You MUST learn to make that distinction. As must Catholics whose beliefs about the Jews are right, but who apply them incorrectly (as to individuals) instead of correctly (to an abstract group as an eschatological symbol). To stop taking comments about an abstract (and rather ill-defined) group personally.
I’d venture to say that I believe it is even wrong to take attacks against other members of a group personally. If Catholics are hurt somewhere in the world, I should be JUST as concerned as if any other human is hurt. If people are killing Poles in Europe, I should not feel personally attacked just because I am a Pole. We are all individuals, and we all die as an individual. No matter how hard real racists (and I am not) try to label people as a group and make them die as a group…in the end, every death is the death of an individual human being. And I should care just as much whether it is muslims being killed or Catholics. Even if the persecution is of Catholics, though I may be a little more afraid, I should not take it personally until it comes to me personally. Even then, I think I’d forgive my captors because I know that they didn’t hate me personally, just the “group” that exists in their head.
So when I hear rabbis in Italy reacting against a Jewish professor’s book saying that some of the blood libels may actually have happened but only among a small group of radical jews for a short period in history…I don’t understand it. The professor (himself a Jew) did not say any jews alive today did it. He did not say all or even most jews alive then did it. He said a few abberant jews may have. And there is an uproar as if jews today have been personally attacked. Ridiculous. Can Jews of the past have never done any wrong?? I know for a fact a tiny minority of abberant Christians sometimes rarely sacrificed children ritually (in French satanism especially). I don’t consider that statement a personal attacks on all Catholics. And yet if it is suggested a few jews 800 years ago may have done something crazy…there is an outcry. You are an individual, not a cog in a machine. And an accusation against a handful of jews is not an accusation against you.
When Catholics say jews killed christ, jews often react quickly saying, “no, it was the romans”. But why does that matter?? Why do you care whether we think some jews 2000 years ago did something bad. They are not you. Why defend them? Why not just say, “Yes, well it was not all of them, it was none alive today, and it certainly wasn’t me. It was some bad invididuals, that’s all.” But instead, I hear denial of the whole event based on political identification with the people.
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chosen_people
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Why am I not surprised that you are also an anti Zionist and do not recognize that in addition to a Jewish religion their is a Jewish people?
Why aren’t you able, even considering your young age, to realize that the ideas you hold have led to terrible suffering and the deaths of millions of people?
Where does this hate come from? Your religious beliefs? Post Vatican II Catholics believe that Jews bear the mark of Cain and are to wander homeless throughout the world? Not to my knowledge. Who taught you these things? Your parents? Your priest?
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