Does US Airstrike in Iraq Violate Just War Doctrine?

[PetraG]

I think I’ve been reminded by you, but it might have been someone else, on different topics that the US is not a catholic nation and that it would not be right to impose catholic teaching on non Catholics with the government. The United States, despite its platitudes, is an atheistic secular government. It answers only to itself.

If trump were a catholic monarch subject to the pope and God by both human and divine law I would be in 100% agreement with you. But he’s not.

I hope I live to see the fall of western democracy, and that all governments submit themselves to the authority of the church. But as long as secular government remains the norm I think it foolish to expect them to act as though there’s anything above them.

Tell me what secular governments are excusing this.

Once again: This falls below the moral standards of atheists and pagans. Even Communist countries at least keep the pretense that there is something a government can do that is objectively shameful.

We are a nation with Catholic voters who have the same free speech as anybody else, and there is no reason we should fail to denounce actions that violate moral law. If people who draw their personal moral law out of thin air if they feel like it can “impose their beliefs” by including their opinions in the public debates, there is no reason we ought to silence ourselves because our reasoning is religious. We’re not talking about making other people practice our religion. We’re talking about finding where our moral boundaries are as a nation. Everyone has the standing to comment on that.

I hope I live to see the fall of western democracy, and that all governments submit themselves to the authority of the church.

There is nothing in the plain meaning of the Gospels that suggests this is part of the plan of salvation. If it were, though, there would be “beating of swords into plowshares” included.

 

[esieffe]

I don’t believe we ever had a real chance to live peaceably with Iran. Iran is the king of the “Israel must be destroyed club.” Peace between Iran, Israel, and the US. is impossible, and this is due to the deep seated radical sharia based ideology of Iran. The best we could have ever hoped for was armistice while Iran consolidated it’s proxies and military programs. They exist to destroy what is contrary to Sharia and their own deeply held beliefs on their religious duties.

That’s it. There is no room for Jews, Christians, atheists etc. at their world table. Why the American left defends them at all is beyond me, as they hang anyone they suspect is gay and the list goes on. Look up Evin prison where guards torture and rape prisoners regardless of gender. They shoot demonstrators. The regime there is evil period.

As much as I hate it, and I truly do hate it, conflict with Iran was and is inevitable. It will cause havoc on our markets and possibly the economy. People who fail to adjust their retirement portfolios are about to lose money, I could go on. But this regime is a sore on the world that has to be healed. Gosh I hope I am wrong, I really do, but I don’t think so, and for better or worse, the cat is out of the bag.

 

[EndTimes]

Dec 2019 — According to a Jesuit journal — Pope Francis has compared U.S. President Donald Trump to the murderous King Herod who massacred innocent children in ancient Palestine while trying to kill the baby Jesus…**I would want to see this source, since I doubt even Jesuit journals would say such a thing. Nor do I think Pope Francis would say such a thing.

I’m surprised as well… however - here we go

It’s an obvious very thinly veiled comment -

‘Our Little Path’: Pope Francis with the Jesuits in Thailand and Japan – EXCERPT​

The phenomenon of refugees has always existed, but today it is better known because of social differences, hunger, political tensions and especially war. For these reasons, migratory movements are intensifying. What is the answer the world gives? The policy of waste. Refugees are waste material. The Mediterranean has been turned into a cemetery. The notorious cruelty of some detention centers in Libya touches my heart. Here in Asia we all know the problem of the Rohingya. I must admit that I am shocked by some of the narratives I hear in Europe about borders. Populism is gaining strength. In other parts there are walls that even separate children from parents. Herod comes to mind. Yet for drugs, there’s no wall to keep them out.

https://www.laciviltacattolica.com/our-little-path-pope-francis-with-the-jesuits-in-thailand-and-japan/

 

[esieffe]

He had a foreign military leader killed without giving warning that he intended to capture or kill his target or explaining why it was necessary to consider such an action. It was an assassination. That he wasn’t the first President to order such a thing doesn’t make it right.

You said the key phrase “in the military.” We don’t assassinate heads of state. This man was a black ops general who wanted to see and I quote “Tel Aviv” under a mushroom cloud. For better or worse, when your in the military, you run the risk of being killed. And by the way, since when has it been military strategy that notify your target you are going to kill them before you attack, or in this case, counter attack? There was a UN sanction on the man not to leave Iran. Good Grief.

 

[Psalms62]

Who determines who’s Just in War?

If you’re writing in a civil legal sense congress:

Does Trump need Congress’s approval to go to war with Iran?

Everyone was opposed to this move with Iran. So I’m really surprise at some of the remarks that came in today, Very Surprised! And, as the article notes, “That depends on whether Congress wants to try to stop him.”

The Mideast Just Turned More Dangerous
By Steven A. Cook, CFR Expert
January 3, 2020

---

If you wanted information on a religious point of view, that is entirely a different matter and even coming from a Christian standpoint. This is an Islamic country regarding laws of war. This isn’t according to what we know or how we interpret our religious code on war and peace but what is written into [Sharia] law and how it is (again) interpreted and by who.
(Sharia - Wikipedia) (Islamic law)

Traditional theory of Islamic jurisprudence recognizes four sources of sharia : the Quran, sunnah (authentic hadith), qiyas (analogical reasoning), and ijma (juridical consensus).

The first military rulings were formulated during the first century after Muhammad established an Islamic state in Medina. These rulings evolved in accordance with the interpretations of the Qur’an (the Islamic Holy scriptures) and Hadith (the recorded traditions, actions (behaviors), sayings and consents of Muhammad). The key themes in these rulings were the justness of war (Harb), and the injunction to jihad. The rulings do not cover feuds and armed conflicts in general.[1

 

[EndTimes]

If you’re writing in a civil legal sense congress:

This Just War discussion - Specifically connects with Catholicism -

Just War Teachings Exist -
and have not been publicly applied by the Catholic Church
to a Legion of ongoing wars in recent times.

 

[PetraG]

Our own. And as the sole super power it’s really the only one that matters.

Oh, gosh, yes, because as Great Britain can tell you, once you are a super power, you’ll always be a super power.

Never said it was

Fair enough. I don’t think you’ll live to see any such thing and I certainly HOPE any of us will ever see any such thing. The Church didn’t do well at the Gospel when she was in the super power business. There is a reason that the devil tempted Our Lord with the power and glory of ruling all the kingdoms of the world, after all.

 

[Psalms62]

This Just War discussion - connects with Catholicism

You mean the justification on our end? milhemet reshut , permitted wars.

There is an article from the vatican that permitted wars and explains the justification and how to avoid it whenever possible. "Shalom” is, of course, the traditional greeting or “Salaam” and it is also a name used for God.

2312 The Church and human reason both assert the permanent validity of the moral law during armed conflict . "The mere fact that war has regrettably broken out does not mean that everything becomes licit between the warring parties."109
2318

2329 “The arms race is one of the greatest curses on the human race and the harm it inflicts on the poor is more than can be endured” ( GS 81 § 3).

2330 “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God” ( Mt 5:9). ARTICLE 5 THE FIFTH COMMANDMENT

 

[EndTimes]

You mean the justification on our end? milhemet reshut , permitted wars.

No… ReRead the OP…

 

[Psalms62]

The question is posed as being,“Does US Airstrike in Iraq Violate Just War Doctrine?”

Is it violating our code of laws as Christians? What I’m writing about is on the same thought but on the opposite end of the table.

Are both sides justifying the act on a war?! And, I’m coming back with the remark that if we can’t justify this recent “Air strike” accordingly to our codes “Just Wars” nor did congress act with an approval then …

 

[Psalms62]

Why are we asking the question after the fact and not before…

 

[PetraG]

You said the key phrase “in the military.” We don’t assassinate heads of state. This man was a black ops general who wanted to see and I quote “Tel Aviv” under a mushroom cloud. For better or worse, when your in the military, you run the risk of being killed. And by the way, since when has it been military strategy that notify your target you are going to kill them before you attack, or in this case, counter attack? There was a UN sanction on the man not to leave Iran. Good Grief.

Since when has it been military strategy to notify your target that you are going to kill them? Well, generally, back when military leaders had something like a code of ethics, it was considered cowardly to have somebody attacked without explicit defiance being sent. There was a time when assassination was for the treacherous and those who had no sense of honor.

There was a UN sanction on the man not to leave Iran, so that makes the Donald Trump into 007.
Rrrright. That certainly has nothing whatsoever to do with just war theory.

The answer I’m getting here is that Donald Trump ordered him killed because he can, and it was A-OK because Congress didn’t make it illegal.

As for the mushroom cloud, there won’t even be any pretense of a nuclear agreement any more. Why would there be, especially with Donald Trump getting out of as many arms treaties as possible and essentially announcing by tweet that he’s just great with getting into a nuclear arms race with anybody out there. There could be a whole lot of mushroom clouds before this is all over.

(NUKEMAP by Alex Wellerstein)

 

[EndTimes]

Is it violating our code of laws as Christians?

Re: that one strike?
Only God knows whether Trump/US
or the ones killed are either equally Just/UnJust

• or if one side has been more justified than the other

 

[PetraG]

Re: that one strike?
Only God knows whether Trump/US
or the ones killed are either equally Just/UnJust

• or if one side has been more justified than the other

This is reasoning from Christian ethics? If someone has done bad enough things, they have a target on their foreheads and “only God can judge” if it was wrong to kill them?

That is not a Catholic answer. That has nothing to do with Church teaching whatsoever.

 

[EndTimes]

That is not a Catholic answer

… Then Please to Give me the Catholic Answer!

Does US Airstrike in Iraq Violate Just War Doctrine?

 

[Aquinas11]

The answer I’m getting here is that Donald Trump ordered him killed because he can, and it was A-OK because Congress didn’t make it illegal.

No the answer you’re giving is if Trump drops one bomb it’s illegal but if Obama drops 100,000 bombs it’s not

 

[Aquinas11]

He had a foreign military leader killed without giving warning that he intended to capture or kill his target or explaining why it was necessary to consider such an action

Yeah what’s up with that? Why wouldn’t he warn a terrorist leader that he intends to kill him? Like how Obama warmed Bin Laden!! Hang on, let me think…

CANDIDATE TRUMP: “You guys hear how stupid our leaders are? They send out these flyers to warn ISIS terrorist truck drivers that ‘hey! this truck will be bombed in an hour!’ And then I read Obama saying he didn’t want to bomb ISIS oil trucks cause it would hurt the environment, I mean how stuuupid is this guy?”

 

[PetraG]

Does US Airstrike in Iraq Violate Just War Doctrine?

Yes, for the same reason that the Iraq War did:
U.S. policy towards Iraq is based on three assumptions, each of which can be morally problematic: (1) the United States has a right to use preventive force against Iraq; (2) the objective of U.S. military action should be the overthrow of the Iraqi regime; (3) the United States has a right to act unilaterally if others are not willing to do as it deems necessary…
…Whether or not the Iraqi threat is, in fact, imminent, what is disturbing is that the Bush administration has taken the concept of preemption as an option in exceptional cases and turned it into a new doctrine about the legitimacy of the unilateral use of preventive war to deal not just with imminent threats, but with merely potential or gathering dangers…
Justifying preventive war in this way would represent a sharp departure from just war norms. As Cardinal Ratzinger, head of the Vatican Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, has noted, the concept “does not appear in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.” (11*: “Cardinal Ratzinger Says Unilateral Attack on Iraq Not Justified,” ZENIT News Agency, September 22, 2002.)
http://www.usccb.org/issues-and-act...war-against-iraz-by-gerard-powers-2002-12.cfm

11*Then-Cardinal Ratzinger noted: "One cannot simply say that the catechism does not legitimize the war. But it is true that the catechism has developed a doctrine that, on one hand, does not exclude the fact that there are values and peoples that must be defended in some circumstances; on the other hand, it offers a very precise doctrine on the limits of these possibilities.”) Cardinal Ratzinger Says Unilateral Attack on Iraq Not Justified - ZENIT - English)

In other words, it does not wash to lower the bar of what constitutes a just war so that it justifies whatever warfare our President happens to want to wage, whether or not anyone else has been consulted concerning whether the situation is so compelling as to warrant it. It isn’t even reasonable that it would. It does not matter if that President is George Bush or Barack Obama or Donald Trump. There was no threat so imminent that he had no choice but to send a drone in and kill that man, let alone to do so solely on his own authority and with no defiance ever sent. To say otherwise makes just war theory no more than a very broad rationalization for the US to do whatever she likes to any party that makes her feel threatened.

 

[PetraG]

Yeah what’s up with that? Why wouldn’t he warn a terrorist leader that he intends to kill him? Like how Obama warmed Bin Laden!! Hang on, let me think…

CANDIDATE TRUMP: “You guys hear how stupid our leaders are? They send out these flyers to warn ISIS terrorist truck drivers that ‘hey! this truck will be bombed in an hour!’ And then I read Obama saying he didn’t want to bomb ISIS oil trucks cause it would hurt the environment, I mean how stuuupid is this guy?”

Well, (a) bin Laden actually was warned frequently by both Bush and Obama that the US intended to capture or kill him because he had been responsible for an attack on US soil, so they actually had given notice of their intention and (b) Candidate Trump was attacking a straw man and you and I both know it.

We went into a foreign country and carried out an assassination. To the best of my knowledge, neither the target nor the host country was ever given notice of our intention to do this. I really don’t know how anybody has a moral defense for this.

I cannot believe that Christians are defending this. This is something a Caesar would do. That’s the way Trump talks: as if the US were some imperial power that intends to do what she wants when she wants to do it and who can stop her? The so-called “Bush Doctrine” was opposed on the grounds that it would weaken existing moral norms to the point of obliteration. I would say it certainly seems to have done that.

 

[Psalms62]

You said the key phrase “in the military.” We don’t assassinate heads of state. This man was a black ops general who wanted to see and I quote “Tel Aviv” under a mushroom cloud

Tel Aviv! And, isn’t the Mossad a national intelligence agency of Israel. It’s one of the main entities in the Israeli Intelligence Community, along with Aman and Shin Bet. Mossad is responsible for intelligence collection and covert operation to make the decision on their end. Why should the US be the responsible party for this airstrike?

And by the way, since when has it been military strategy that notify your target you are going to kill them before you attack, or in this case, counter attack? There was a UN sanction on the man not to leave Iran. Good Grief.

Then get congress to approve it accordingly! Why go around congress? Any reason not to go for an approval? If the reports would have been substantiated then justification “like Trump’s impeachment process” would have been approved. Did you hear Nancy Pelosi on this subject!

We are asking ourselves “after the fact and not before hand”. The decision was made now then we wait. If this action was a direct violation of our religious codes of law under “Just Wars” the act has been done. We’re just waiting for the reaction.

The distance between Tehran, Iran and Baghdad, Iraq is 693 kilometers (431 miles)