Does what we know about transgender people throw a wrench at Catholic teaching on sex and marriage?

[RobbyS]

Yes and yes, as evidenced by responses you have received so far.

It’s a scientific fact that transsexuals have brain structure matching their psychological gender. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_transsexualism#Brain_structure So it’s not a mere psychological disorder which can be cured through psychotherapy (as many here would like to believe), these people are literally hardwired to think like the other sex.

Also, I find the following sentiment among Catholics to be very disturbing:

This view basically asserts that a person is completely defined by their DNA. Of course, this conveniently ignores: epigenetics, influence of hormones on embryonic and fetal development (ever heard of CAIS - XY females?) and influence of environmental factors (pseudo-estrogens in drinking water, anyone?).

As evidenced by the post quoted above, some Catholics today hold dearly to a mindset where a person is defined by DNA. I’d find that rather amusing, if such mindset wasn’t downright scary. First off, if you believe that all your traits are in DNA, then the logical conclusion is that you could eliminate unwanted traits from the population by removing them from the gene pool. Oh, we’ve just invented eugenics. You have Catholics that decry eugenics, but somehow hold dearly to (scientifically inaccurate) idea it is based on. Second, Catholics believe that a human is made of body and soul. Yet, if everything is in DNA, then there is really no place for immaterial soul, is it? That “DNA is everything” view is pure materialism.

That’s a fundamentally anti-Catholic, anti-Christian idea. It has been picked up because it makes a nice anti-abortion argument, without realizing the amount of damage it carries.

A transsexual is a female soul in a male body (or vice versa), but you will never hear a Catholic saying that, since they’ve abandoned the concept of the soul in favor of genetic determinism.

Well, DNA is just a starting pojnt, but what a starting point! An incomprehensive amount of information. Of course our personality is something develops from that, but the DNA shapes that experience as well as being shaped by it, but in ways about which we now cannot predict or even properly hypothesize. But biology provides a better look into things than psychology, which remains a half-science.

 

[CaliLobo]

The Reginator:

Don’t be fooled by fools.
Regardless of psychological considerations, we are born either male or female. The body we received at the moment of conception defines our gender. To say otherwise is not ‘scientific’ … it is nonsense.

No. The only reason we’re born male or female is because doctors assign it upon looking at the genitals when the baby is born. But what if the baby is intersex? Throws a wrench at the idea that we’re born male or female.

In the Hijra people group of India, a third gender is recognized for this reason.

huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/23/nepal-third-gender-ids_n_2533316.html

LittleDeb:

While we are called as Catholics to prevent all unjust forms of discrimination, we are not required to buy into junk science. In countries where those who are born with intersexed or ambiguous genitalia are allowed to grow up naturally, the individuals will express a binary sex.

Edward H:

No…anytime you see “concepts” like this being overlaid onto biology challenge the concepts ruthlessly…drill into words like “expression” and “identity” with vigor. How, when, where, why? You’ll find defenders start to arm wave, just before they start dismissing or ridiculing you, because the new ideas they have don’t stand up to rigorous interrogation.

Not true. Some people are unsure of what gender to express, and some alternate their gender expression by the day. And how about the Hijra third gender?

And what is so junk science about the 4 variables I discussed in the original post? You resist because you’re not used to these newer ideas; instead you let yourself be grossed out. Gender “expression” and “identity” are true concepts. With open minds, we study these topics and improve our understanding of what gender is. Do you want peer reviewed studies? Go on Google Scholar and look for “transgender”. There are hundreds, if not thousands. There are entire scientific journals dedicated to sexuality.

Here is a portal to transgender research resources from the Univ of Indiana:
studentaffairs.iub.edu/glbt/library/library-resources/academic-research/transgender-research/

Here are some sources I recommend that introduce the concepts I’m talking about:
Sexual Orientation And Gender Expression in Social Work Practice:
Working With Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, And Trandgender People
Chapter 5 discusses the topic and the four variables I discussed above, on page 108-109.

ChibiViolet:

We as people, are not born with an “assigned” gender, but are born either as a boy or a girl and we then grow up to be men and women. Sometimes there is a disorder in a person causing them to believe that they are in fact the opposite gender, or that they should be the opposite gender. Society today is more and more encouraging such disorders–mostly out of good intentions, but the result is a bunch of people being deceived about who God made them to be. Science has shown that the disorder exists and people are taking it the wrong way.

edwest2:

I urge everyone to read the following:

ncregister.com/daily-news…dered-persons/

It’s not a disorder or a mental illness, because treatments do not cure it. And that is why it has been removed from the DSM, much like homosexuality, because we now know that it is normal for 2-5% of people to be gay, and 0.25-1% of people to be transgender. They cannot be “cured”, and there’s nothing to cure, because these people naturally turned out that way. We don’t need to know why; it just is, and that’s the scientific reality of humans. We now know that gender is naturally a continuum between male and female and not binary. It’s continuous, not discrete.

Edwest, the article you post only discusses the failures and tragedies of gender reassignment surgery. Much like how pro-lifers only discuss the failures of abortion procedures, how “dangerous” it supposedly is. But much like with abortion, some people get gender reassignment surgery and are happy with the results. Besides, the most common treatment is hormone treatment, not genital surgery. Some transgender people don’t choose to get genital surgery, or even hormones.

It’s all very individual how people wish to deal with their own gender. And the Bible was written at a time when transgender concepts were relatively unknown, and genital and hormone treatments did not exist. Since there is no Biblical prohibition against being transgender or changing your gender, the only reason why this is a “moral” issue is due to the Magisterium, right?

 

[Elizabeth502]

Ah-ah. There is no male or female in Christ means that gender does not matter in Christ. Why are we obsessing over something which doesn’t matter, then?

No. That is not what the passage means. A scripture scholar clearly you are not. It does not mean that gender is insignificant, interchangeable, or of no consequence. As a matter of fact, our personal journeys our through our birth gender as essential to our personhood.

Each particular soul is connected to a particular, gendered body.

I’m not “obsessing,” but it appears that you are? (Speak for yourself.)

 

[St_Francis]

It is not immoral to *be *in this category of people, but certain actions in reaction are immoral. The confusion of sex (gender identity) renders it impossible for the Church to accept the person to a role differentiated by gender. Certain actions would ciolate modesty, and surgery and possibly hormonal treatment would ciolate the probibition against mutilating one’s body.

Bit God loves each of us and wants each of us to be with Him. The Catholic Church accepts everyone who wants to live for Christ.

No. The only reason we’re born male or female is because doctors assign it upon looking at the genitals when the baby is born. But what if the baby is intersex? Throws a wrench at the idea that we’re born male or female.

In the Hijra people group of India, a third gender is recognized for this reason.

huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/23/nepal-third-gender-ids_n_2533316.html

Not true. Some people are unsure of what gender to express, and some alternate their gender expression by the day. And how about the Hijra third gender?

And what is so junk science about the 4 variables I discussed in the original post? You resist because you’re not used to these newer ideas; instead you let yourself be grossed out. Gender “expression” and “identity” are true concepts. With open minds, we study these topics and improve our understanding of what gender is. Do you want peer reviewed studies? Go on Google Scholar and look for “transgender”. There are hundreds, if not thousands. There are entire scientific journals dedicated to sexuality.

Here is a portal to transgender research resources from the Univ of Indiana:
studentaffairs.iub.edu/glbt/library/library-resources/academic-research/transgender-research/

Here are some sources I recommend that introduce the concepts I’m talking about:
Sexual Orientation And Gender Expression in Social Work Practice:
Working With Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, And Trandgender People
Chapter 5 discusses the topic and the four variables I discussed above, on page 108-109.

It’s not a disorder or a mental illness, because treatments do not cure it. And that is why it has been removed from the DSM, much like homosexuality, because we now know that it is normal for 2-5% of people to be gay, and 0.25-1% of people to be transgender. They cannot be “cured”, and there’s nothing to cure, because these people naturally turned out that way. We don’t need to know why; it just is, and that’s the scientific reality of humans. We now know that gender is naturally a continuum between male and female and not binary. It’s continuous, not discrete.

Edwest, the article you post only discusses the failures and tragedies of gender reassignment surgery. Much like how pro-lifers only discuss the failures of abortion procedures, how “dangerous” it supposedly is. But much like with abortion, some people get gender reassignment surgery and are happy with the results. Besides, the most common treatment is hormone treatment, not genital surgery. Some transgender people don’t choose to get genital surgery, or even hormones.

It’s all very individual how people wish to deal with their own gender. And the Bible was written at a time when transgender concepts were relatively unknown, and genital and hormone treatments did not exist. Since there is no Biblical prohibition against being transgender or changing your gender, the only reason why this is a “moral” issue is due to the Magisterium, right?

 

[LittleDeb]

No. The only reason we’re born male or female is because doctors assign it upon looking at the genitals when the baby is born. But what if the baby is intersex? Throws a wrench at the idea that we’re born male or female.

In the Hijra people group of India, a third gender is recognized for this reason.

huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/23/nepal-third-gender-ids_n_2533316.html

Not true. Some people are unsure of what gender to express, and some alternate their gender expression by the day. And how about the Hijra third gender?

And what is so junk science about the 4 variables I discussed in the original post? You resist because you’re not used to these newer ideas; instead you let yourself be grossed out. Gender “expression” and “identity” are true concepts. With open minds, we study these topics and improve our understanding of what gender is. Do you want peer reviewed studies? Go on Google Scholar and look for “transgender”. There are hundreds, if not thousands. There are entire scientific journals dedicated to sexuality.

Here is a portal to transgender research resources from the Univ of Indiana:
studentaffairs.iub.edu/glbt/library/library-resources/academic-research/transgender-research/

Here are some sources I recommend that introduce the concepts I’m talking about:
Sexual Orientation And Gender Expression in Social Work Practice:
Working With Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, And Trandgender People
Chapter 5 discusses the topic and the four variables I discussed above, on page 108-109.

It’s not a disorder or a mental illness, because treatments do not cure it. And that is why it has been removed from the DSM, much like homosexuality, because we now know that it is normal for 2-5% of people to be gay, and 0.25-1% of people to be transgender. They cannot be “cured”, and there’s nothing to cure, because these people naturally turned out that way. We don’t need to know why; it just is, and that’s the scientific reality of humans. We now know that gender is naturally a continuum between male and female and not binary. It’s continuous, not discrete.

Edwest, the article you post only discusses the failures and tragedies of gender reassignment surgery. Much like how pro-lifers only discuss the failures of abortion procedures, how “dangerous” it supposedly is. But much like with abortion, some people get gender reassignment surgery and are happy with the results. Besides, the most common treatment is hormone treatment, not genital surgery. Some transgender people don’t choose to get genital surgery, or even hormones.

It’s all very individual how people wish to deal with their own gender. And the Bible was written at a time when transgender concepts were relatively unknown, and genital and hormone treatments did not exist. Since there is no Biblical prohibition against being transgender or changing your gender, the only reason why this is a “moral” issue is due to the Magisterium, right?

CaliLobo,
This post is showing that your original post was disingenuous. Your projection of your own issues on to me further illustrate that fact. You have absolutely no idea of my life experiences, or what might cause me to “gross out”. If these are your idea of peer-review, and you continue to use the junk science term of gender, we likely will not get very far in a discussion. I was hoping that I had found another kindred spirit in discussing the fascinating scientific phenomenon of intersexed persons. Sadly, I have not. I wish you well.

 

[CaliLobo]

LittleDeb:

This post is showing that your original post was disingenuous. Your projection of your own issues on to me further illustrate that fact. You have absolutely no idea of my life experiences, or what might cause me to “gross out”. If these are your idea of peer-review, and you continue to use the junk science term of gender, we likely will not get very far in a discussion. I was hoping that I had found another kindred spirit in discussing the fascinating scientific phenomenon of intersexed persons. Sadly, I have not. I wish you well.

We’re getting sensitive really quickly, aren’t we? If you are so sensitive, what are you doing participating in these debates?

You still haven’t answered my question. What is so “junk science” about the 4 theories I mentioned above??

Have you looked at Google Scholar yet? Have you clicked on my links? If that’s not peer-reviewed, what is?

The only explanation is that you are uncomfortable with modern liberal academia, because it threatens Catholicism.

It seems like every time I post an argument that has some merit, I get ad hominem attacks, or attacks of my whole argument as junk or garbage, with no backing.

Is this what Catholics are all about?

I’m sorry if I made you uncomfortable, but if you can’t handle vigorous debate, please walk away. Otherwise, let’s have a discussion with the understanding that this isn’t personal, since I don’t know you personally.

 

[CopticChristian]

So at work we had a seminar on transgender people and etiquette when meeting a transgender person.

And that is what explains the existence of gays (#1 not correlated with #2), transgender (#1 not correlated with #3 and #4), and intersex people (#1 is blurred and not correlated with #3 and #4). #2 can be blurred (bisexuality, transgender attraction), and #3 and #4 can be blurred (genderqueer, crossdressing, switching gender identity in one’s mind, etc.) And transgender people can also be gay or straight (all four variables not correlated).

My question then is,** if it’s scientifically very evident that our concept of gender, which we long thought of as binary, instead is expressed by a wide range of values for the four variables above, and humans do exhibit this wide range of values, then doesn’t that throw a wrench into Catholic teaching on sex, gender, and marriage?**

Doesn’t this also add ammunition to the idea that Catholic teaching is losing relevance in modern society, because the Catholic Church, with its insistence on upholding tradition, becomes hostage to its doctrines and cannot change according to what we now know scientifically?

Lobo,

So you were educated by whom?

What I learned was honestly fascinating. We have long thought of gender as binary (male vs female), but it is scientifically very clear that gender is an analysis of four variables:

1. Assigned gender upon birth
2. Sexual orientation
3. Gender identity
4. Gender expression

What is also scientifically very clear is that these four variables can all be blurred, and have NO correlation with one another.

Now that you believe this based on teaching show me the science that proves that a transgender is anything but someone that wishes, desires, prefers, imagines to be something that they are not.

 

[CopticChristian]

Yes and yes, as evidenced by responses you have received so far.

 

[CopticChristian]

.
Oh! That’s a very clear way of explaining what is going on in the minds and bodies of people who feel this way! Thank you for that! I’d never really explored this issue before and it’s amazing how logically your workplace just described it in two paragraphs, makes sense.
Did you have doctors who are specialists in this area come in and explain this? Biologists and psychologists?

I think as far as the Catholic church is concerned, this new information wouldn’t change anything to their doctrine…because physical, psychological, mental, and emotional feelings and senses are not to be followed at any cost if they go against doctrine, even if they are natural and organic. As far as I can see.

Even in the heterosexual world this is true.
For example, if you marry one person in the church when you are very young and you don’t make a wise choice…you don’t really “feel” love or physical attraction to them and maybe you don’t even know what those feelings are yet…and then a few years later you meet a person for whom you DO feel that for in spades and who is better suited to you in every way and you feel euphoric with this new person…it doesn’t matter.

You are not supposed to pay attention to those feelings and senses as being “valid” (right?).
You are supposed to believe that if God put you together with the first person, that is who you are meant to be with despite the fact that you don’t feel you want to be with them and you feel this way for the rest of your life.

So I think the Catholic position is…even if all the above about trans-gender is true (and it sounds as tho it is), it doesn’t matter.
Well, it doesn’t matter in the belief system of the Catholic church, anyway. So in a way, yes, you are right…the doctrines in the Church won’t have relevance to a modern society that listens and embraces the medical information you listed, above.

But it will certainly have a lot of relevance and it will matter a lot to a lot of other people, and laws and understanding of this issue will adapt accordingly to our new information and testing and research on it as we move forward.

.

DaddyGirl,

Not so fast, blind leading the blind here…

 

[CopticChristian]

If there is no male or female in Christ, then why does the transsexuality issue matter to the Church at all? Also, if there is no male or female in Christ, then there is no problem with gay marriage or ordaining women… not so.

You can’t have it both ways.

Aux,

Since your faulty analysis of the science is wrong your analysis here also is wrong.

 

[CopticChristian]

That’s the point. You wrote:

 

[CopticChristian]

This sums up the issue rather well in my opinion: saladbingo.wordpress.com/2010/08/25/transsexuals-in-the-catholic-church/

Aux,

Lesbians are Homosexuals
Gay men are Homosexuals
Bisexuals are Homosexuals in Transition
Transgenders are Homosexuals…

It is pretty simple…

 

[CopticChristian]

No.
In the Hijra people group of India, a third gender is recognized for this reason.

huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/23/nepal-third-gender-ids_n_2533316.html

Not true. Some people are unsure of what gender to express, and some alternate their gender expression by the day. And how about the Hijra third gender?

Here is a portal to transgender research resources from the Univ of Indiana:
studentaffairs.iub.edu/glbt/library/library-resources/academic-research/transgender-research/

Chapter 5 discusses the topic and the four variables I discussed above, on page 108-109.

It’s not a disorder or a mental illness, because treatments do not cure it. And that is why it has been removed from the DSM, much like homosexuality, because we now know that it is normal for 2-5% of people to be gay, and 0.25-1% of people to be transgender. They cannot be “cured”, and there’s nothing to cure, because these people naturally turned out that way. We don’t need to know why; it just is, and that’s the scientific reality of humans. We now know that gender is naturally a continuum between male and female and not binary. It’s continuous, not discrete.

Edwest, the article you post only discusses the failures and tragedies of gender reassignment surgery. Much like how pro-lifers only discuss the failures of abortion procedures, how “dangerous” it supposedly is. But much like with abortion, some people get gender reassignment surgery and are happy with the results. Besides, the most common treatment is hormone treatment, not genital surgery. Some transgender people don’t choose to get genital surgery, or even hormones.

It’s all very individual how people wish to deal with their own gender. And the Bible was written at a time when transgender concepts were relatively unknown, and genital and hormone treatments did not exist. Since there is no Biblical prohibition against being transgender or changing your gender, the only reason why this is a “moral” issue is due to the Magisterium, right?

Lobo,

The Hijra were the people looked at when Transgender was introduced into the DSM…

DSM - IIIR
Transsexualism (302.50)
The essential features of this disorder are a persistent discomfort and sense of inappropriateness about one’s assigned sex in a person who has reached puberty. In addition, there is persistent preoccupa tion, for at least two years, with getting rid of one’s primary and secondary sex characteristics and acquiring the sex characteristics of the other sex. Therefore, the diagnosis is not made if the disturb ance is limited to brief periods of stress. Invariably there is the wish to live as a member of the other sex. In the rare cases in which physical intersexuality or a genetic abnormality is present, such a condition should be noted on Axis III.

People with this disorder usually complain that they are uncomfortable wearing the clothes of their assigned sex and therefore dress in clothes of the other sex. Often they engage in activities that in our culture tend to be associated with the other sex. These people often find their genitals repugnant, which may lead to persistent requests for sex reassignment by hormonal and surgical means.

To varying degrees, the behavior, dress, and mannerisms become those of the other sex. With cross-dressing and hormonal treatment (and for males, electrolysis), some males and some females with the disorder will appear relatively indistinguishable from members of the other sex. However, even after sex reassignment, many people still have some physical features of their originally assigned sex that the alert observer can recognize.
Cross-culturally, the Hijra of India and the corresponding group in Burma may have conditions that, according to this manual, would be diagnosed as male-to-female Transsexualism. The Hijra, however, tra ditionally undergo castration, not hormonal and surgical feminization (creation of a vagina).

So basically the Transgendered should just undergo castration and be done with it…

And what is so junk science about the 4 variables I discussed in the original post? You resist because you’re not used to these newer ideas; instead you let yourself be grossed out. Gender “expression” and “identity” are true concepts. With open minds, we study these topics and improve our understanding of what gender is. Do you want peer reviewed studies? Go on Google Scholar and look for “transgender”. There are hundreds, if not thousands. There are entire scientific journals dedicated to sexuality.

You brought the Junk science, you should provide the proof…

DSM II
302.0 Sexual orientation disturbance [Homosexuality]
This is for individuals whose sexual interests are directed primarily
toward people of the same sex and who are either disturbed by, in
conflict with, or wish to change their sexual orientation. This diagnostic
category is distinguished from homosexuality, which by itself
does not constitute a psychiatric disorder. Homosexuality per se is
one form of sexual behavior, and with other forms of sexual behavior
which are not by themselves psychiatric disorders, are not
listed in this nomenclature.

It is a diagnosis based on wish, desire, preference, imagination…and nothing more.

Your support for your point of view will not change what is…preference, imagination, desire and wish…perhaps rendering them as the Hjira as you point out would be best…but you brought it up I did not…

 

[CopticChristian]

No. The only reason we’re born male or female is because doctors assign it upon looking at the genitals when the baby is born. But what if the baby is intersex? Throws a wrench at the idea that we’re born male or female.

In the Hijra people group of India, a third gender is recognized for this reason.

huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/23/nepal-third-gender-ids_n_2533316.html

Not true. Some people are unsure of what gender to express, and some alternate their gender expression by the day. And how about the Hijra third gender?

And what is so junk science about the 4 variables I discussed in the original post? You resist because you’re not used to these newer ideas; instead you let yourself be grossed out. Gender “expression” and “identity” are true concepts. With open minds, we study these topics and improve our understanding of what gender is. Do you want peer reviewed studies? Go on Google Scholar and look for “transgender”. There are hundreds, if not thousands. There are entire scientific journals dedicated to sexuality.

Here is a portal to transgender research resources from the Univ of Indiana:
studentaffairs.iub.edu/glbt/library/library-resources/academic-research/transgender-research/

Here are some sources I recommend that introduce the concepts I’m talking about:
Sexual Orientation And Gender Expression in Social Work Practice:
Working With Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, And Trandgender People
Chapter 5 discusses the topic and the four variables I discussed above, on page 108-109.

Edwest, the article you post only discusses the failures and tragedies of gender reassignment surgery. Much like how pro-lifers only discuss the failures of abortion procedures, how “dangerous” it supposedly is. But much like with abortion, some people get gender reassignment surgery and are happy with the results. Besides, the most common treatment is hormone treatment, not genital surgery. Some transgender people don’t choose to get genital surgery, or even hormones.

It’s all very individual how people wish to deal with their own gender. And the Bible was written at a time when transgender concepts were relatively unknown, and genital and hormone treatments did not exist. Since there is no Biblical prohibition against being transgender or changing your gender, the only reason why this is a “moral” issue is due to the Magisterium, right?

Lobo,

It’s not a disorder or a mental illness, because treatments do not cure it. And that is why it has been removed from the DSM, much like homosexuality, because we now know that it is normal for 2-5% of people to be gay, and 0.25-1% of people to be transgender. They cannot be “cured”, and there’s nothing to cure, because these people naturally turned out that way. We don’t need to know why; it just is, and that’s the scientific reality of humans. We now know that gender is naturally a continuum between male and female and not binary. It’s continuous, not discrete.

The DSM I, II, III, IV and V still have Transgender in there and in fact the rub is that the DSM V is being changed…because of Science…no Politics…

advocate.com/politics/transgender/2012/07/23/dsm-replaces-gender-identity-disorder-gender-dysphoria

But in other cases, a GID diagnosis justifies insurance coverage for gender reassignment surgery and other medical procedures that sometimes accompany a transition. Having a diagnosis is the difference between a necessary medical procedure and something that can be perceived as cosmetic surgery that insurance won’t cover, Drescher says.

Others argue that GID should stay in the DSM in some form because it provides a solid legal defense for transgender people who have experienced discrimination based on their gender identity.

So, while voting to take Homosexuality out of the DSM…recall that over 3000 did not agree…there is discussion over leaving Transgender in the DSM V…why…so Insurance, your money and mine can pay for mutilating surgery…

Now Homosexuality is out because this is just normal and Transgender is just normal…but Transgender stays in the DSM???

 

[CopticChristian]

We’re getting sensitive really quickly, aren’t we? If you are so sensitive, what are you doing participating in these debates?

You still haven’t answered my question. What is so “junk science” about the 4 theories I mentioned above??

Have you looked at Google Scholar yet? Have you clicked on my links? If that’s not peer-reviewed, what is?

The only explanation is that you are uncomfortable with modern liberal academia, because it threatens Catholicism.

It seems like every time I post an argument that has some merit, I get ad hominem attacks, or attacks of my whole argument as junk or garbage, with no backing.

Is this what Catholics are all about?

I’m sorry if I made you uncomfortable, but if you can’t handle vigorous debate, please walk away. Otherwise, let’s have a discussion with the understanding that this isn’t personal, since I don’t know you personally.

Lobo,

I read all your stuff. You got eductated by GLBT to see their point of view. They are wrong.

 

[CopticChristian]

.
Transgender sounds suspiciously like God or Faith.
Something that can’t be seen in front of us or scientifically “proven”…but can be felt, imagined, desired, and can be a deep knowing in a person’s heart, body, and soul.

.

DaddyGirl,

God is immutable. Faith is a gift from God.

Homosexuality is not immutable

 

[CopticChristian]

This is not correct.
Transgender is mainly about feeling you are in the wrong gender body…not about wanting to have sex with the same gender as yourself.

DaddyGirl,

We have different opinions and according to the DSM IV…

genderpsychology.org/transsexual/dsm_iv.html

Associated laboratory findings.
There is no diagnostic test specific for Gender Identity Disorder. In the presence of a normal physical examination, karyotyping for sex chromosomes and sex hormone assays are usually not indicated. Psychological testing may reveal cross-gender identification of behavior patterns.

and

Specifiers
For sexually mature individuals, the following specifiers may be noted based on the individual’s sexual orientation: Sexually Attracted to Males, Sexually Attracted to Females, Sexually Attracted to Both, and Sexually Attracted to Neither. Males with Gender Identity Disorder include substantial proportions with all four specifiers. Virtually all females with Gender Identity Disorder will receive the same specifier-Sexually Attracted to Female- although there are exceptional cases involving females who are sexually Attracted to Males.

In my experience, in experience based on those coming to this forum wishing, believing, desiring that they are Transgender…I have yet to see one that is attracted to neither…or neuter…

So they are homosexual…in my opinion…based on what I see as other than science in the DSM…

 

[John_Savage]

Can you cure pedophilia? I think about 3% of men are.

No. The only reason we’re born male or female is because doctors assign it upon looking at the genitals when the baby is born. But what if the baby is intersex? Throws a wrench at the idea that we’re born male or female.

In the Hijra people group of India, a third gender is recognized for this reason.

huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/23/nepal-third-gender-ids_n_2533316.html

Not true. Some people are unsure of what gender to express, and some alternate their gender expression by the day. And how about the Hijra third gender?

And what is so junk science about the 4 variables I discussed in the original post? You resist because you’re not used to these newer ideas; instead you let yourself be grossed out. Gender “expression” and “identity” are true concepts. With open minds, we study these topics and improve our understanding of what gender is. Do you want peer reviewed studies? Go on Google Scholar and look for “transgender”. There are hundreds, if not thousands. There are entire scientific journals dedicated to sexuality.

Here is a portal to transgender research resources from the Univ of Indiana:
studentaffairs.iub.edu/glbt/library/library-resources/academic-research/transgender-research/

Here are some sources I recommend that introduce the concepts I’m talking about:
Sexual Orientation And Gender Expression in Social Work Practice:
Working With Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, And Trandgender People
Chapter 5 discusses the topic and the four variables I discussed above, on page 108-109.

It’s not a disorder or a mental illness, because treatments do not cure it. And that is why it has been removed from the DSM, much like homosexuality, because we now know that it is normal for 2-5% of people to be gay, and 0.25-1% of people to be transgender. They cannot be “cured”, and there’s nothing to cure, because these people naturally turned out that way. We don’t need to know why; it just is, and that’s the scientific reality of humans. We now know that gender is naturally a continuum between male and female and not binary. It’s continuous, not discrete.

Edwest, the article you post only discusses the failures and tragedies of gender reassignment surgery. Much like how pro-lifers only discuss the failures of abortion procedures, how “dangerous” it supposedly is. But much like with abortion, some people get gender reassignment surgery and are happy with the results. Besides, the most common treatment is hormone treatment, not genital surgery. Some transgender people don’t choose to get genital surgery, or even hormones.

It’s all very individual how people wish to deal with their own gender. And the Bible was written at a time when transgender concepts were relatively unknown, and genital and hormone treatments did not exist. Since there is no Biblical prohibition against being transgender or changing your gender, the only reason why this is a “moral” issue is due to the Magisterium, right?

 

[fix]

DaddyGirl,

We have different opinions and according to the DSM IV…

genderpsychology.org/transsexual/dsm_iv.html

and

In my experience, in experience based on those coming to this forum wishing, believing, desiring that they are Transgender…I have yet to see one that is attracted to neither…or neuter…

So they are homosexual…in my opinion…based on what I see as other than science in the DSM…

That is the bottom line.

 

[CopticChristian]

That is the bottom line.

Fix,

Supported by propaganda that the unknowing, the unlearned and the decietful swallow and spread…

thenewamerican.com/culture/item/11640-former-apa-president-says-homosexuals-can-change

And it passed the Council of Representatives. And that was the first issue that came up. I also said with that, that the APA, if it passes this resolution, will also vote to continue research that demonstrates whatever the research demonstrates. Unbiased, open research. It was never done.

During this time at the top of APA, Cummings said, the headshrinkers’ group adopted the Leona Tyler Principle, which mandated scientific proof for the organization’s public positions. That principle was “paramount,” he said.

Cummings said the APA “abided by the Leona Tyler principle. All of the sudden things began to change as things became more political than scientific” and the principle “disappeared.” “The principle was never withdrawn,” he said, yet it is nowhere to be found in the “annals” of the APA and “was absolutely forgotten” by the mid 1990s. Politics rule science at APA, he said, with its members “cherrypicking results” to fit their leftist political ideas. A search of the terms “leona tyler” at the APA website does not return results.

He said the “gay rights movement sort of captured the APA.”

and the Catholic Medical Association says this…

catholiceducation.org/articles/sexuality/ho0039.html

The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual IV (APA 1994) of the American Psychiatric Association has defined Gender Identity Disorder (GID) in children as a strong, persistent cross gender identification, a discomfort with one’s own sex, and a preference for cross sex roles in play or in fantasies. Some researchers (Friedman 1988, Phillips, 1992) have identified another less pronounced syndrome in boys — chronic feelings of unmasculinity. These boys while not engaging in any cross sex play or fantasies, feel profoundly inadequate in their masculinity and have an almost phobic reaction to rough and tumble play in early childhood and a strong dislike of team sports. Several studies have shown that children with Gender Identity Disorder and boys with chronic juvenile unmasculinity are at-risk for same-sex attraction in adolescence.(Newman 1976; Zucker 1995; Harry 1989)

The early identification (Hadden 1967) and proper professional intervention, if supported by parents, can often overcome the gender identity disorder (Rekers 1974: Newman 1976). Unfortunately, many parents who report these concerns to their pediatricians are told not to worry about them. In some cases, the symptoms and parental concerns may appear to lessen when the child enters the second or third grade, but unless adequately dealt with the symptoms may reappear at puberty as intense, same-sex attraction. This attraction appears to be the result of a failure to identify positively with one’s own sex.