Does what we know about transgender people throw a wrench at Catholic teaching on sex and marriage?

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+JMJ+

DaddyGirl, I would appreciate it if you would answer out of quotes, as it would be much easier to answer.
So…are you saying if a person does feel or think they are another gender, it will affect church doctrine? I was saying that would not affect it as far as I can see. But you are saying it will indeed affect it?
Yes it would affect church doctrine subjectively (how it applies to a person), not objectively (what those doctrines are exactly).
I believe your are incorrect here.
From what I have read here and in the catechism about annulments, you can’t just get an annulment because you don’t “feel” in love with someone or you don’t “feel” attracted to them or you don’t “think” you are in love with them.
(Others, correct me if I’m wrong here).
You have to meet the grounds that the marriage was not “valid” from the start…and those grounds don’t mention anything about feelings or thoughts or physical attraction. I can’t count how many times I’ve heard people, including apologists, say on this forum that “love is not a feeling, it’s a choice.”
Your exact words were: “For example, if you marry one person in the church when you are very young and you don’t make a wise choice.” If the Church finds that the parties involved in a marriage were of insufficient maturity to have fully consented to a marriage, then she would declare the marriage “annulled” (that is, there actually wasn’t a valid marriage in the first place).
If that were the case, (name removed by moderator)my–the poster last week who was refused an annulment of her first marriage-- would not be in so much anguish and have to now leave the Catholic church for Greek Orthodox just so that she can be married to the man she loves and has children with.
We are not privy to the FULL details of that case so I do not think that is a good example to use.
I think you are incorrect here as well.
Apologists and priests have said many times that even if, for example, homosexuality is proven to be genetic/DNA based…it still would not change church doctrine that same sex marriages can be performed in the Catholic church or that same-sex would not be considered “an abomination”.
The medical findings would not change how a person is supposed to behave, according to doctrine.
Are you saying…it would?
It would, again, change the subjectivity of the doctrine, not objectivity. Case in point: masturbation.

CCC 2352 By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. “Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action.” “The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose.” For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of “the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved.”

To form an equitable judgment about the subjects’ moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety or other psychological or social factors that lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability.
So by the same token, even if what the OP is posting about transgenders is correct and proven by medical experts…are you saying it would change Church doctrine? That the Church would embrace sex change operations? I am saying it would not. Are you saying it would?
I thought one of the the main points about the religion is that the doctrine stays the same.
Addiction also changes the brain structure of a person, but does that lessen the objective moral depravity of it? And if pedophilia was shown to have an organic cause (i.e. there is a difference in the brain structures of pedophiles compared to other people), will that lessen its moral depravity?
 
No. The only reason we’re born male or female is because doctors assign it upon looking at the genitals when the baby is born. But what if the baby is intersex? Throws a wrench at the idea that we’re born male or female.

In the Hijra people group of India, a third gender is recognized for this reason.

huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/23/nepal-third-gender-ids_n_2533316.html

Not true. Some people are unsure of what gender to express, and some alternate their gender expression by the day. And how about the Hijra third gender?

And what is so junk science about the 4 variables I discussed in the original post? You resist because you’re not used to these newer ideas; instead you let yourself be grossed out. Gender “expression” and “identity” are true concepts. With open minds, we study these topics and improve our understanding of what gender is. Do you want peer reviewed studies? Go on Google Scholar and look for “transgender”. There are hundreds, if not thousands. There are entire scientific journals dedicated to sexuality.

Here is a portal to transgender research resources from the Univ of Indiana:
studentaffairs.iub.edu/glbt/library/library-resources/academic-research/transgender-research/

Here are some sources I recommend that introduce the concepts I’m talking about:
Sexual Orientation And Gender Expression in Social Work Practice:
Working With Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, And Trandgender People

Chapter 5 discusses the topic and the four variables I discussed above, on page 108-109.

It’s not a disorder or a mental illness, because treatments do not cure it. And that is why it has been removed from the DSM, much like homosexuality, because we now know that it is normal for 2-5% of people to be gay, and 0.25-1% of people to be transgender. They cannot be “cured”, and there’s nothing to cure, because these people naturally turned out that way. We don’t need to know why; it just is, and that’s the scientific reality of humans. We now know that gender is naturally a continuum between male and female and not binary. It’s continuous, not discrete.

Edwest, the article you post only discusses the failures and tragedies of gender reassignment surgery. Much like how pro-lifers only discuss the failures of abortion procedures, how “dangerous” it supposedly is. But much like with abortion, some people get gender reassignment surgery and are happy with the results. Besides, the most common treatment is hormone treatment, not genital surgery. Some transgender people don’t choose to get genital surgery, or even hormones.

It’s all very individual how people wish to deal with their own gender. And the Bible was written at a time when transgender concepts were relatively unknown, and genital and hormone treatments did not exist. Since there is no Biblical prohibition against being transgender or changing your gender, the only reason why this is a “moral” issue is due to the Magisterium, right?
Social scientists manufacture concepts all the time…it’s really how they get tenure. Not so in the physical sciences.

A valid concept must reveal more than it conceals, and it must be given by the inventing social scientist a set of ways or methods that it can be tested to the point of being refuted; that is to say, there is no other way that a phenomenom can be so, unless the MECHANICS of the concept proposed are present and work as theorized.

One principle in science is parsimony…and it’s rarely applied in the social sciences.

Now take anyone of your favorite little new terms…gender expression, gender identity, etc…and look deeply at the literature for any evidence of a real test to disprove its existence. You won’t find it.

What you find in th e social science feed is an ever enlarging field of largely non intersecting “followings”…one professor proposes an idea…produces papers with graduate students…the grad students then go off and start sub stains in other universities.

If you study the proliferation of “terms” inthe social sconces over the last 30 years, it really is a very littered, self feeding profession.
 
+JMJ+

DaddyGirl, I would appreciate it if you would answer out of quotes, as it would be much easier to answer.

Yes it would affect church doctrine subjectively (how it applies to a person), not objectively (what those doctrines are exactly).

Your exact words were: “For example, if you marry one person in the church when you are very young and you don’t make a wise choice.” If the Church finds that the parties involved in a marriage were of insufficient maturity to have fully consented to a marriage, then she would declare the marriage “annulled” (that is, there actually wasn’t a valid marriage in the first place).

We are not privy to the FULL details of that case so I do not think that is a good example to use.

It would, again, change the subjectivity of the doctrine, not objectivity. Case in point: masturbation.

CCC 2352 By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. “Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action.” “The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose.” For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of “the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved.”

To form an equitable judgment about the subjects’ moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety or other psychological or social factors that lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability.
Nuntym,
Addiction also changes the brain structure of a person, but does that lessen the objective moral depravity of it? And if pedophilia was shown to have an organic cause (i.e. there is a difference in the brain structures of pedophiles compared to other people), will that lessen its moral depravity?
Addiction changes brain structure while drugs are being used but the changes revert when the addictive substance is discontinued. Alcohol can cause damage to many parts of the body that is unrelated to the time while addicted.
 
+JMJ+
Nuntym,

Addiction changes brain structure while drugs are being used but the changes revert when the addictive substance is discontinued. Alcohol can cause damage to many parts of the body that is unrelated to the time while addicted.
If I am not mistaken, most (if not all) of the changes in the brain caused by addiction do not go back to the way they were before, which is why addiction is so dangerous.
 
+JMJ+

If I am not mistaken, most (if not all) of the changes in the brain caused by addiction do not go back to the way they were before, which is why addiction is so dangerous.
Nuntym,

And you believe you are not mistaken based on what?

There is truly no way to know what addiction does to the brain unless you do a Pathologic study…
 
Doesn’t this also add ammunition to the idea that Catholic teaching is losing relevance in modern society, because the Catholic Church, with its insistence on upholding tradition, becomes hostage to its doctrines and cannot change according to what we now know scientifically?
When one believes the Church teaching that the God-designed purpose of sex is uniative AND procreative, nothing but Church teaching makes sense.

Our society’s crumbling foundation, the family, is proof enough that the Church’s teachings are correct, and disintegrated families are in large part the cause of homosexuality. Stop blaming God.
 
+JMJ+

If I am not mistaken, most (if not all) of the changes in the brain caused by addiction do not go back to the way they were before, which is why addiction is so dangerous.
Nuntym,

HBO has a special on addiction that shows brain scans while addicted to Methamphetamine and after. When Methamphetamine use is stopped the brain reverts to normal…and here…

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23474013

Neuropharmacology. 2013 Mar 6. pii: S0028-3908(13)00075-0. doi: 10.1016/j.neuropharm.2013.02.018. [Epub ahead of print]
Intact inhibitory control processes in abstinent drug abusers (I): A functional neuroimaging study in former cocaine addicts.
Bell RP, Foxe JJ, Ross LA, Garavan H.
SourceThe Cognitive Neurophysiology Laboratory
Abstract
Neuroimaging studies in current cocaine dependent (CD) individuals consistently reveal cortical hypoactivity across regions of the response inhibition circuit (RIC). Dysregulation of this critical executive network is hypothesized to account for the lack of inhibitory control that is a hallmark of the addictive phenotype, and chronic abuse is believed to compound the issue. A crucial question is whether deficits in this circuit persist after drug cessation, and whether recovery of this system will be seen after extended periods of abstinence, a question with implications for treatment course and outcome. Utilizing functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI), we examined activation in nodes of the RIC in abstinent CD individuals (n = 27) and non-using controls (n = 45) while they performed a motor response inhibition task. In contrast to current users, these abstinent individuals, despite extended histories of chronic cocaine-abuse (average duration of use = 8.2 years), performed the task just as efficiently as non-users. In line with these behavioral findings, no evidence for between-group differences in activation of the RIC was found and instead, robust activations were apparent in both groups within the well-characterized nodes of the RIC. Similarly, our complementary Electroencephalography (EEG) investigation also showed an absence of behavioral and electrophysiological deficits in abstinent drug abusers. These results are consistent with an amelioration of neurobiological deficits in inhibitory circuitry following drug cessation, and could help explain how long-term abstinence is maintained. Finally, regression analyses revealed a significant association between level of activation in the right insula with inhibition success and increased abstinence duration in the CD cohort suggesting that this region may be integral to successful recovery from cocaine addiction.
 
In other English-speaking countries, professionals write about “sex differences” but in the US, “sex” is changed to “gender.” I think the reason is that “sex” is objective while “gender” can be regarded as wholly subjective (-with the added gloss that all subjective experiences are equally valid.)

Be that as it may, nothing in the OP makes me think Church teaching should change. If a man believes he is a woman, I don’t think he should marry a man OR a woman; I think that such a person should not marry at all.
 
+JMJ+
Nuntym,

HBO has a special on addiction that shows brain scans while addicted to Methamphetamine and after. When Methamphetamine use is stopped the brain reverts to normal…and here…

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23474013

Neuropharmacology. 2013 Mar 6. pii: S0028-3908(13)00075-0. doi: 10.1016/j.neuropharm.2013.02.018. [Epub ahead of print]
Intact inhibitory control processes in abstinent drug abusers (I): A functional neuroimaging study in former cocaine addicts.
Bell RP, Foxe JJ, Ross LA, Garavan H.
SourceThe Cognitive Neurophysiology Laboratory
Well, then I am very glad to be mistaken in this.
 
If a man believes he is a woman, I don’t think he should marry a man OR a woman; I think that such a person should not marry at all.
See, this is what I don’t understand: If man #1 thinks he is a woman, then he would search for a man, but man #1 would be looking for a straight man. The straight man would not be interested in man #1. So, man #1 needs to find another man (man #2) who ALSO thinks he’s a woman, in which case it makes more sense that both man #1 and man #2 are actually male lesbians. Those genuinely seeking the opposite sex would be straight, and we wouldn’t be having this conversation. I wonder if fear or rejection by the opposite gender has anything to do with it.
 
See, this is what I don’t understand: If man #1 thinks he is a woman, then he would search for a man, but man #1 would be looking for a straight man. The straight man would not be interested in man #1. So, man #1 needs to find another man (man #2) who ALSO thinks he’s a woman, in which case it makes more sense that both man #1 and man #2 are actually male lesbians. Those genuinely seeking the opposite sex would be straight, and we wouldn’t be having this conversation. I wonder if fear or rejection by the opposite gender has anything to do with it.
Fire,

You raise an interesting point. What heterosexual male would be attracted to a man that thinks he is a woman and what woman would be attracted to a woman that thinks he is a man. This excludes those in a relationship where the entire situation is clouded by knowing each other…just the run of the mill, I am at Applebees and a guy sits next to me and says he thinks he is a woman…

What clouds the issue is the hormones that are taken. This is dangerous and also changes the mood so that the man taking Estrogen and the woman taking Testosterone is not the person that imagined what they are not prior to the Hormonal influence.

And when the guy who sits next to me at Applebees says he thinks he is a woman…I would say…“Waiter…check please…I have to leave”🙂
 
See, this is what I don’t understand: If man #1 thinks he is a woman, then he would search for a man, but man #1 would be looking for a straight man. The straight man would not be interested in man #1. So, man #1 needs to find another man (man #2) who ALSO thinks he’s a woman, in which case it makes more sense that both man #1 and man #2 are actually male lesbians. Those genuinely seeking the opposite sex would be straight, and we wouldn’t be having this conversation. I wonder if fear or rejection by the opposite gender has anything to do with it.
I see your point and grant that it makes sense, but the problem is that we’re dealing with people whose thinking is clouded. A man who thinks he is a woman is deeply confused. And not just about who he is. It is unintentionally comic that the view of women held by men who think they are women is cloyingly stereotypical. All the people now who wish to emulate June Cleaver (-of “Leave it to Beaver”) are men!)
 
I see your point and grant that it makes sense, but the problem is that we’re dealing with people whose thinking is clouded. A man who thinks he is a woman is deeply confused. And not just about who he is. It is unintentionally comic that the view of women held by men who think they are women is cloyingly stereotypical. All the people now who wish to emulate June Cleaver (-of “Leave it to Beaver”) are men!)
Mark,

It is almost humerous…trapped in a man’s body, this woman, trying to get out…struggles to express comically what they think a woman would be like…if there really was a woman in there…it would be obvious…
 
Mark,

It is almost humerous…trapped in a man’s body, this woman, trying to get out…struggles to express comically what they think a woman would be like…if there really was a woman in there…it would be obvious…
That’s been my contention all along. It’s an imagined sense of what the other gender must be like…
 
That’s been my contention all along. It’s an imagined sense of what the other gender must be like…
Ironically, it isn’t very imaginative! It’s much more of a stereotype, and often a pre-women’s-movement one! (Heels, pearls, dresses, lots of make up, o, and very young because they rarely want to be a woman in the sense of giving birth!)
 
Ironically, it isn’t very imaginative! It’s much more of a stereotype, and often a pre-women’s-movement one! (Heels, pearls, dresses, lots of make up, o, and very young because they rarely want to be a woman in the sense of giving birth!)
Great observation. Real women manifest feminity in an infinite number of ways…vs. play copy cat and dress up.
 
Ironically, it isn’t very imaginative! It’s much more of a stereotype, and often a pre-women’s-movement one! (Heels, pearls, dresses, lots of make up, o, and very young because they rarely want to be a woman in the sense of giving birth!)
…except that what is sad is that they lack a uterus, do they not? (Among other aspects of a complete plumbing system for childbirth)

Oh whoops, I see that you excluded that. Still, that part is sad to me, since it is all so superficial.
 
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