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markeverett49
Guest
Who does this? How can it NOT be disordered for a man with a penis to believe he is a woman? It’s a terrible disorder and I feel for those who suffer from it.
Does what we know about transgender people throw a wrench at Catholic teaching on sex and marriage?
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Stephanie_Pauls
Guest
The disorder is the brain"mind" is not congruent with the body.
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aux1
Guest
Hi Coptic,
Come on, are you asserting these guys made a basic error by not randomizing the groups correctly? It’s first year of grad school…
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aux1
Guest
Is – or should be – a person defined by its genitals?
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aux1
Guest
But that’s not the topic of the thread.
The topic of the thread is that Catholic Church lacks ontology to correctly describe the disorder in question.
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CopticChristian
Guest
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CopticChristian
Guest
Aux,
You bring up a good point. We are not our thoughts, not our behaviors, not our arm, leg, nose, genitals…and this is true…
Men have male genitals
Women have female genitals
This is the way it is.
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CopticChristian
Guest
Aux,
There is no lack of Ontology…
Male and Female He created them…
Gay men are homosexual
Gay women are homosexual
Men that think, desire, prefer to be other than what they are created as are homosexual
Wome that think desire, prefer to be other than what they are create as are homosexual
Homosexuals are Homosexuals…pretty clearly an Ontologic understanding as far as I see…
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pnewton
Guest
Should sexual desires be a gender classification? Should we also accept pedosexuals and grant them the same rights?
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fix
Guest
Their sex should be defined by external appearance unless there is some congenital anomaly that can be identified. Is there some reason why all of sudden we no longer look to the obvious?
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markeverett49
Guest
I’m glad you acknowledge it to be a disorder but I’m not sure how to read " the brain ‘mind’ is not congruent with the body’ First, most secular thinkers deny there is anything more to the mind than the brain itself. Thus (for them) the mind is the brain and the brain is part of the body, so the mind is part of the body. I’m glad you acknowledge that mind is more than the brain. (As Mortimer Adler put it, “We don’t think with the brain though we can’t think without it.” I highly recommend his book “Intellect: Mind Over Matter.”)
But you know, if the problem is that the mind is at odds with the body, changing the body (SRS) doesn’t address the disorder in the mind…
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markeverett49
Guest
aux1;10544342 said:
the disorder in question.
Ugh, no, that isn’t the topic of this thread. The topic of this thread is ‘Does what we know bout transgender people throw a wrench at Catholic teaching on sex and marriage?’ The answer to that question is no.
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ephesians4
Guest
^ Excellently put, sir.
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aux1
Guest
How often do you see other person’s genitals outside sexual situations?
In societal interactions, gender is identified by secondary characteristics, such as hair, face and body shape, not genitals or genes. With some effort, one can pass themselves off as a person of the opposite sex just fine. As Coptic noted, some MtF transsexuals can be so convincing that they manage to seduce men…
Genitals (or genes) are largely irrelevant except for sex, reproduction, and state or Church bureaucracy…
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aux1
Guest
Homosexual = person who likes sex with the same gender
Transsexual = person who believes to be the opposite gender
There’s a large group of very masculine homosexuals
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JohnTomHoc
Guest
That’s completely wrong from both a philosophical perspective – wanting to be a not-man does not mean being an anatomical male who is satisfied being an anatomical male & wants to have sex with men – which is what homosexuality is.
It’s also wrong based on my personal experience as someone who has severe gender dysphoria but is NOT transsexual nor homosexual.
My first therapist badly misdiagnosed me because she was badly trained & my case is very severe. I later encountered a friend’s therapist, who was expert, who recognized instantly that I was not; and when my first lost their license for mispractice, this was confirmed by another.
The difference between me and actual transsexuals is that a true transsexual always asserts “I’m a girl” from the time they can talk, and never acts any other way, even if they conform to gender norms for a time… Mere strong aversion to being considered male is not sufficient – there has to be a positive, definite sense of being female.
None of this makes sense to people without any kind of gender dysphoria. For those of us who have it, it’s like they live in a kind of flatland, while we live by navigating in an oddly warped social space. No wonder some people come to the false conclusion that there are multiple genders.
I never had any ambiguity about my sexual orientation: it was towards women, not men. But I couldn’t have emotional relationships with women, because in any one on one situation, they discovered, apart from necking, that something was not quite right with me. I did not have any overtly effeminate behaviors; I was just behaved in a mostly introverted manner in most social situations I could only relate to girls or women from the interior identification as one. It wasn’t the sort of behavior of the “let’s braid each other’s hair” which IS common among gay men; I didn’t realize that I was basically trying to relate as a lesbian.
I was able to simulate male friendships; but they were problematic too, because I was basically acting the part of a pal. I didn’t have any sexual attraction towards those friends; but unlike the girls, they didn’t notice.
None of this meant that my brain sex was actually female. It meant that I never socialized successfully as either male or female.
The idea that just wanting to be “other than you are” means one is “homosexual” is silly. My sexual orientation is that of any heterosexual male; but I lack any sense of being male.
I live now with the condition as a cross to bear but also a singular gift, since it allows me to be impartial . I do NOT consider myself a third or fourth or fifth gender: I don’t try to act male or female, masculine or feminine. I don’t appear to be androgynous.
The only reason I make this public avowal is that there are a lot of Catholics struggling with this, and I think it’s important for them, if they come across these discussions, to recognize that, yes, it happens to Catholics, and no, strong gender dysphoria is not necessarily addressable by the means offered by the transgender community. Those who ARE really transsexual, who have never felt they were anything BUT girls, will know that; those who have not always had that feeling but have never been comfortable with being designated as males will know that too.
I affirm “male and female he created them”. I do not think homosexual practice is morally conformable to Church teaching, and that God’s grace is abundantly available for anyone who can’t quite fit into what appear to be simple categorizations from people who assume that, because they are unable to imagine it, they can understand what it is.
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jonathan_hili
Guest
Haha okay, now I feel like a bit of a dolt!
I completely agree with you, Coptic. I thought you were arguing that transgender identity is legitimate (that is, there’s nothing wrong with it) because the body can’t tell us about our real identity.
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jonathan_hili
Guest
People who support gender reassignment surgery seem to honestly believe that the body is a tablet on which you can inscribe any sexual identity (or otherwise) preference.
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jonathan_hili
Guest
Ummm if you’re asking should someone’s personality be defined by their genitals, well obviously not. But a person’s sex should definitely be defined by their genitals. I mean, what are they there for! Unless you want to posit a radical disconnect between the body and mind, I can’t see how it can be any other way.
Besides, a person’s sex is a physical attribute. Whether a person thinks he is male or female is frankly irrelevant to the brute facticity of their physical sex.
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CopticChristian
Guest
JTC,
I appreciate your openness. You are not coming to the forum as we have seen…
Transgender in love…
You state you have gender dysphoria and as you know there are children with GD that outgrow it and then there are adults that say they have GD and they are not the same entity.
You point out that difference when you say that there are some that state this GD in childhood. So you would not be that person and you should know that there is still lots to be discovered about this.
You are fortunate because you identify something you suffer with that you don’t understand.
Any attempt to aid someone with a problem demands…
Identification of something that is not desired
Motivation to do something about that
Creating a plan to do something about it
Feedback as to what has been done and what works
Solidifying that plan, continuing the motivation and working towards that end…
These aforementioned points are unavailable to someone that says…
I am a woman trapped in a man’s body and want to be castrated to be fulfilled…this does not equate to someone believing that this is not desired…
Most comments about GD have to do with those that are not troubled and believe, wish, desire, prefer…etc…unlike the picture you portray and I agree those comments are not directed towards you and I agree there is lack of understanding…
Accept that we don’t understand and accept that you are looking to do something about it…this thread is not about you…
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