Does your parish give "pride of place" to Gregorian chant?

[Bob_Aliano]

This topic is dragging out and straying so allow me one final remark.

I love the “sound” of chants in Greek, Latin and even Russian when done in the traditional Monastic style, unaccompanied and nearly monotone. I used to love the traditional Latin Mass when I was an altar boy and really knew and understood the words. For a variety of reasons, some personal some a result of VII, that knowledge is gone so to go back to it at this point would be more trouble than value.

I don’t object to certain Mass parts in Greek or Latin whether sung or said but I believe it is more for color than substance. Prayers said and sung in the local language are better understood and more meaningful to those praying which I understand was the underlying intent of VII.

By Elitist I meant a situation similar to that in which Latin words and phrases are used as a means of portraying some level of intelligence beyond that which is actually present or to speak down to the audience.

 

[Bluegoat]

It is possible, if Latin is not desirable, to do chant well in English. I have heard it argued that Catholics are not capable of that, but I don’t believe it.

It seems to me that to get over some of the practical problems Cat and some others have mentioned, parishes or preferably diocese need a plan, with clear and realistic goals. The major issue is really that congregations and choirs can’t do even simple chant. If they could, children and new people would learn from the congregations they are in - so the challenge is to bring the knowledge to the congregations.

A diocese could easily set a goal such as “in two years, we would like every congregation to make a good show of chanting the Nicean Creed in English, and we would then like them to do it on a regular basis”. (Or the psalm, or some other part of the liturgy, or perhaps each choir to be able to do a short and simple Latin mass setting. Whatever.)

Then they could decide how to actually proceed. Maybe have a series of very focused workshops to get the music directors and musicians up to speed. Maybe those people would go back and teach the choirs. Perhaps workshops or meetings open to choir members, or a plainchant choir drawing from all parishes so people could practice. Maybe there could be some special events - a choir that was good at the chosen goal could travel to Masses in the diocese so every parishioner could see an example of what would happen. Eventually the parishes would begin to actually do it, led by the choir who had practiced until they were strong.

There would be time-lines to complete each step, and maybe at the end a big special Mass with a mass choir and hot dogs afterward.

 

[roadsend]

Of course they’re intelligent enough, I don’t think anyone would debate that, but the burning question is why bother?

Nobody speaks latin anymore. Nobody.

For those who may be interested, sure, teach them. But should one really be required to learn words in a second language, where few if any will really grasp the meaning of the latin, where English, Spanish, etc, etc. are readily available?

…

Uh, nobody speaks ancient Hebrew or ancient Arabic any more either.
Why do you suppose the Jews and Muslims bother?
Do you suppose it might have something to do with respect for their worship traditions and maybe even a desire to pass them on to future generations?
Even though we have a huge repertoire of what even non-believers describe as the most inspiring sacred music in the world it appears as if many of us Catholics have lost this respect and desire.
For that matter, we appear to be loosing a big percentage of our future generation as well. *Lex orandi, lex credendi.
*

 

[pnewton]

Catholic children are somehow not smart enough to learn to read and sing Latin, even when they have the vernacular on the page right next to the Latin?
Sheesh.

Maybe the attitude is that Catholics are smart enough to realize a language is just a language with no magical properties? Reading the text while another language being used is not the same as being able to understand and think in the same language you are hearing. What* I* do not understand is the need to twist disagreement into a question of intelligence or who is most holy.

 

[roadsend]

Not a question of holiness or magic, but a question of the way we do or do not (mostly do not) honor and respect the worship traditions we have been given by the Church.
I believe that this greed, indifference, and downright laziness has already cost us a large percentage of two generations and will likely cost us more down the road.

 

[Contarini]

Of course they’re intelligent enough, I don’t think anyone would debate that, but the burning question is why bother?

Because it’s the traditional language of the Western Church, as well as a foundational language for Western Civilization as a whole.

Nobody speaks latin anymore. Nobody.

Contradicere te audeo. Saepe vere erro, minimam facilitatem habeo; hanc tamen linguam tam antiquam et tam pulchram moriri non libenter sinebo.

For those who may be interested, sure, teach them. But should one really be required to learn words in a second language, where few if any will really grasp the meaning of the latin, where English, Spanish, etc, etc. are readily available?

I don’t know about required. But it sure seems like a good idea.

Edwin

 

[Newbie2]

So when was the last time you had a conversation in latin with someone outside a classroom?

 

[VociMike]

So when was the last time you had a conversation in latin with someone outside a classroom?

None of this is actually relevant. The Church says Latin is to be preserved in the Latin rite. Actually, I mispoke. The Holy Spirit, speaking through the Ecumenical Council, says says Latin is to be preserved in the Latin rite. So it behooves each of us to try and understand why. I can think of a few reasons, not that I would claim any of these as reasons the Church would claim:

1. Mass in the vernacular actually divides parishes rather than unifying them. I speak from decades of experience. The Vietnamese Mass, the Spanish Mass, the Tagalog Mass, the English Mass. The different language groups ghettoize themselves according to language of the Mass, even when they can also speak the predominant language.
2. Every language group is at the mercy of its translation. As is now widely accepted, the English translation was a botched and banal job which we have had to suffer for almost 40 years. Lex orandi lex credendi.
3. The field of sacred music, “a necessary or integral part of the solemn liturgy,” suffers a tremendous reduction in quality and suitability when the foundation of music for each language group must be reinvented, not over the course of many centuries but over the course of only a few decades. And then must be reinvented again on each new translation (and living languages by their very nature will require ever-new translations). The resulting rupture of liturgical worship is a repetitive disaster.

 

[pnewton]

I believe that this greed, indifference, and downright laziness has already cost …

What are you saying? That a preference for the vernacular is due to greed, indifference or laziness? Do you always assign the worst possible motives to everyone but yourself?

 

[roadsend]

What are you saying? That a preference for the vernacular is due to greed, indifference or laziness? Do you always assign the worst possible motives to everyone but yourself?

No. Actually not. I am just calling a spade a spade. It is what it is.
There is a huge amount of money being made off of the copyrights for the vernacular drivel that passes for sacred music nowadays in many if not most parishes. Don’t take my word for it. See what your parish pays to the publishing houses (such as OCP) for the missalettes, song books, planners, etc. These planners tell parish music planners what to sing each Sunday and, of course, suggest that their own copyrighted songs be sung (which pretty much excludes traditionally Catholic music).
As I see it most Catholics are indifferent to the fact that they have lost their own musical worship traditions which have gradually developed over almost 2000 years. They just don’t care.
As has been brought out by others on this thread, a lot of younger Catholics are barely aware that real Catholic music exists.

 

[elts1956]

For Mass, you can attend at Sainte-Marie-des-Deux-Montagnes, Benedictine women in Deux-Montagnes, on the outskirts of Montreal (near Oka). The women sing very well; Mass is usually presided by Dom André Saint-Cyr, a monk from Saint-Benoît-du-Lac. He sings the Mass and is very good. They use Gregorian chant every day, for the propers and Kyriale and French for the rest, but twice a week they do the entire Mass (OF) in Latin.

Saint-Benoît-du-Lac, near Magog, QC, is a Benedictine men’s abbey, and I am an oblate of there. They sing Gregorian chant (propers and kyriale) every day for Mass as well as Lauds and Vespers. The rest of the Mass is in French plainchant, and the other offices are in French plainchant except for the hymn and short responsories which are in Latin Gregorian chant.

For our choir, it varies, if ever you come to Sherbrooke, QC, I can provide you with our schedule, usually we sing at Saturday vigil Masses. Our next one is for Pentecost, next Saturday evening at 4 pm.

The choirs in Montreal, I don’t know their schedules unfortunately but can find out. There is also a choir I know in Chicoutimi.

Sounds like Heaven. Our Parish is completely NO. Some good people, but mention a Latin Mass to them and they ask, what???

 

[Cat]

No. Actually not. I am just calling a spade a spade. It is what it is.
There is a huge amount of money being made off of the copyrights for the vernacular drivel that passes for sacred music nowadays in many if not most parishes. Don’t take my word for it. See what your parish pays to the publishing houses (such as OCP) for the missalettes, song books, planners, etc. These planners tell parish music planners what to sing each Sunday and, of course, suggest that their own copyrighted songs be sung (which pretty much excludes traditionally Catholic music).
As I see it most Catholics are indifferent to the fact that they have lost their own musical worship traditions which have gradually developed over almost 2000 years. They just don’t care.
As has been brought out by others on this thread, a lot of younger Catholics are barely aware that real Catholic music exists.

Today is my birthday. I’m 53 years old.

I think that entitles me to post my opinion today.

I’m insulted by your post. Completely insulted. Thanks a whole lot.

I play piano well. I’m an educated person (B.S. Biology/Med Tech). I write novels. I work full-time. I’ve successfully raised two children. I am the chair of several community events. I attend several Catholic Bible studies and as many parish activities as I can.

I’m NOT indifferent, greedy, or lazy.

And I happen to LOVE a lot of the music in the OCP publications. So there.

The fact that it is still in the Catholic churches tells me that it is still approved for use in Mass by the Church. So I am not doing something wrong or liturgically incorrect to enjoy this music. Don’t try to tell me that ALL the parishes in the U.S. who use this music are doing something wrong. That’s just nonsense.

A lot of my Catholic friends and acquaintances, including several knowledgeable priests who are musically-trained, love this music, too. And they are not indifferent, greedy, or lazy! In fact, most of them know more than I do about the Catholic Church and most of them have a deep and loving relationship with Our Lord Jesus Christ.

I actually converted from evangelical Protestantism to Catholicism, and the OCP music played a part in that process. I loved these songs. I had NEVER heard ANY of the OCP songs in all my 47 years in evangelical Protestant churches. OK? These are NOT Protestant songs.

To this day, the song Here I Am, Lord can bring me to tears, and yet I’ve heard people on this board say horrible things about this beautiful song. This makes me so upset.

I happen to like traditional hymns as well.

I do not like hymns in Latin–the words are gibberish to me, and the melodies are usually non-existent, which I personally have a hard time with due to the fact that I have lived all my life in the Western part of the world, in the U.S., and my ears are accustomed to regular melody and meter. During the few times a year when it is sung in our parish, I always sing (softly) the English translation.

But I will not make insulting comments about others who enjoy Latin music. If your ears can tolerate the non-melody and irregular rhythm, more power to you.

My personal feeling is that a Mass should include a variety of music. And it seems that the GIRM supports this opinion, even though some of you want to prove that all music except the old music is “bad.” You’re wrong.

Here is my personal opinion. I personally think that a return to use of a great deal of Latin in the Mass would be an utter disaster for the Catholic Church in the U.S. Catholics are ignorant and uncatechized enough about their faith and the Church right now, when the Mass is in English. Heaven help us if the Mass is in a language that they have to read a Missal to understand! RIGHT NOW, Catholics don’t bother to use the Missallette to follow the readings or sing the hymns! Most Catholics just stand there–I try to assume the best, that they are listening hard and praying in their souls. But I suspect in my heart that many of them are just zoning out. They would zone out even more with Latin! And since most Catholics do NOT attend Bible studies and religious classes, or listen to Catholic radio or TV, or read any books written about Catholicism, the result of a mainly-Latin Mass would be a spreading of the ignorance and probably attrition away from the Catholic Church to Christian fellowships where the language in speech and music is understood.

There are missionaries who spend their entire lives translating the Bible into the vernacular of various tribes and peoples. Some of these missionaries have been martyred. It is important for people to hear the Gospel and learn about Jesus in their own heart-language. The very idea that teaching the whole world Latin hymns or a Latin Mass would help them to know Jesus and go to heaven is just not logical. Maybe it worked in the past, but that was the ONLY OPTION back then. Nowadays, I think it would not work.

Certainly we keep up Latin because it is a “tradition” of the Church and we have to keep it up to understand many of the ancient documents of the Church. I respect that.

Those of you who believe differently–well, good luck with all that. Let’s make a deal–I won’t call you lazy and greedy and indifferent if you don’t call me lazy and greedy and indifferent. Let’s just accept that different people like different music, and the Catholic Church, at this time in history, allows for these differences in the Mass.

 

[roadsend]

The truth is still the truth, even if you are insulted.
Gregorian Chant and Latin are our musical tradition, even if you
“do not like hymns in Latin–the words are gibberish to me, and the melodies are usually non-existent”.

And I don’t believe that I said that all the OCP songs are Protestant. (although many of them certainly are)
I did say that many of them were not in the Catholic Tradition. (and they clearly are not)

Cool off and have a happy birthday.

 

[Newbie2]

None of this is actually relevant. .

Actually, it is quite relevant. You’re making the point, are you not, that there can be problems in translation in which the meaning and significance of words can be lost. That’s what I’m saying as well. When we don’t speak conversational or even ecclesial latin, we cannot fathom the meaning as well as if it were in our own native language.

Now I’ll agree that there is something to be desired in the Latin-English translations which we’ve been given. Better, methinks, to improve that than to go back to a required mass in Latin. Sure, make it available for those who like it, but it would take away a lot from most modern Catholics, methinks.

Same with music. The reality is, if we went back to the Gregorian chant as the required norm in the United States, there would be a mass exodus.

 

[VociMike]

Actually, it is quite relevant. You’re making the point, are you not, that there can be problems in translation in which the meaning and significance of words can be lost. That’s what I’m saying as well. When we don’t speak conversational or even ecclesial latin, we cannot fathom the meaning as well as if it were in our own native language.

Now I’ll agree that there is something to be desired in the Latin-English translations which we’ve been given. Better, methinks, to improve that than to go back to a required mass in Latin. Sure, make it available for those who like it, but it would take away a lot from most modern Catholics, methinks.

Same with music. The reality is, if we went back to the Gregorian chant as the required norm in the United States, there would be a mass exodus.

So you’re saying we need to save the Church by disobeying the Church (and the Holy Spirit)? You’re saying that you know better what’s good for the Church than does the Magisterium which is guided by the Holy Spirit?

BTW, the Church has had a mass exodus already. It coincided with the introduction of the vernacular. I don’t claim those are related, because a great many other things were going on at the same time, but it makes your own mass exodus argument a real uphill climb.

 

[Newbie2]

So you’re saying we need to save the Church by disobeying the Church (and the Holy Spirit)?

No, where do you get that? I’m saying we aren’t required to nor is a good idea to return to all latin all the time.

You’re saying that you know better what’s good for the Church than does the Magisterium which is guided by the Holy Spirit?

Nope.

BTW, the Church has had a mass exodus already. It coincided with the introduction of the vernacular. I don’t claim those are related, because a great many other things were going on at the same time, but it makes your own mass exodus argument a real uphill climb.

You don’t think going “all latin” would cause an exodus? Do you think changing back would bring back those who left due to a change to the vernacular?

 

[VociMike]

You don’t think going “all latin” would cause an exodus? Do you think changing back would bring back those who left due to a change to the vernacular?

Well the topic here is giving Gregorian chant the council-specified “pride of place.” It’s not going “all latin” in the music, much less in the rest of the Mass. Nobody other than a fanatic would suggest “pride of place” means that every Mass in a parish needs to be all Gregorian chant.

 

[kinderbueno]

The original Latin term in Sacrosanctum Concilium (Vatican II’s Constitution) is principem locum. It seems “pride of place” is selling short what should be closer to reading as “first/principal place.”

Chant does not always have to be in Latin, check with the good folks at the Church Music Association of America (musicascra.com), chants CAN be adapted to the vernacular – many of their composers are quite versed on what the Church calls for.

Chant focuses more on the text than pretty melodies (though I personally find them quite beatiful). For a quick example in Credo III, when it comes to “He ascended into Heaven” or “Ascendit in Caelum”, the melody actually ascends!

Chant is not bound by meter…like the eternal Liturgy that we have the privilege to participate in, it can seem outside of time.

Pop music is for dance clubs.
Marches are for the military.
Showtunes are for Broadway.
CCM is for fellowship.
Gregorian Chant is for Mass.

Chant also doesn’t have to be switched in wholesale – or you will have a mass exodus. Add the Introit one year, the Communion antiphon the next, followed by some polyphony… Asking the congregation what they think they want to hear IMO is a bit like asking one of my 8th grade CCD students what he wants to learn in class.

Before dismissing what the VII fathers and subsequent Holy Fathers have said on the matter, consider that they may know a thing or two about context. For all chant haters, even our beloved Pope John Paul II (I think he might be a little qualified to make these statements ) had words on the matter:

“12. With regard to compositions of liturgical music, I make my own the “general rule” that St Pius X formulated in these words: "The more closely a composition for church approaches in its movement, inspiration and savour the Gregorian melodic form, the more sacred and liturgical it becomes; and the more out of harmony it is with that supreme model, the less worthy it is of the temple”" (Tra Le Sollectitudini, November 22, 2003)

Now enforcement is a whole other topic altogether. But in God’s time and his Church’s time, not mine. Notice I haven’t quoted anything from before VII (but I can, if you like).

Of course, that same VII Constitution calls for the preservation of Latin (36, 54) – a unifying characteristic of the LATIN Rite. But I digress…

Peace, -Mike

 

[Phemie]

I think I just died and went to Heaven! We have a seminarian here for the summer. Today we were discussing incense and after hearing what he had to say I asked
“So, where do you stand on Gregorian Chant?”

“Come out into the church and I’ll show you.”

Once in the nave he chanted “Salve Regina”. I think I’m in love.

 

[kinderbueno]

Whoops didn’t mean to derail the thread…to answer the OP’s question:

In my parish, it’s getting there, but we have a way to go (IMO). It’s strange that our primary music director knows the texts to which I alluded in my previous post as we’ve talked about them at length, but every once in a while, he throws in a Spiritual or some African freedom song. A contradiction for sure! He has implemented some chants in English for the Introit, and even a polyphonic motet once or twice a month. Now a couple of our other Masses, however, are a different story – guitar, piano, bongo drums, and often songs that are theologically lacking (some OCP drivel) or have, at best, nothing to do with the scriptures of the day.

I don’t actually sing at my parish, but rather, with a choir that does the OF Latin Mass once a month at another parish. I prefer sacristan duties at the home parish.

My girlfriend says that the music at her parish sounds like The Fray with Colbie Calliat as the front-woman performing. Of course, it’s an '80s built structure with the choir section about as prominent as the altar itself. I believe that has a lot to do with it, too.

But I think it primarily depends on the pastor’s priestly formation and administrative skills (and his bishop’s, too) to enforce what the Church calls for. Hopefully the next generation will be more faithful – and having a couple of seminarian friends, I’m pretty optimistic.

Peace, -Mike