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smelliott417
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In the sense that he wanted to return to the Mass of Creation or the Mass of Light or the Celtic Mass and others that the parish been singing for decades.In what sense?
In the sense that he wanted to return to the Mass of Creation or the Mass of Light or the Celtic Mass and others that the parish been singing for decades.In what sense?
I think it was a bit of both, plus I think it was out of his comfort zone.You mean he didn’t like the Greek and Latin and wanted you to return to the English Mass settings you’d been using before?
It’s probably one of two things: he’s one of those who believes that this went out with Vat. II and he’s had enough of what he considers a trip down memory lane or he got a lot of complaints and figures it’s easier to go back to the previous settings than to bother explaining the whys and wherefores of chant.
[/QUOTE]Sure, I could start singing it. And they would cart me out the door and take me straight to the Psych floor at the hospital because apparently I haven’t made it clear-I am just a pianist. I have no right whatsoever to start singing a Latin chant during a Mass in our parish.
So give them accompaniment. The organ works better than the piano though,No problemI certainly understand the ‘authority’ aspect, what I was attempting to address was the ‘ability’ aspect.
So back at you–WHO exactly did you have in mind to sing the chants and teach them to the congregation? And WHEN exactly would you suggest that this person(s) teach these chants to the congregation?Anyone who can sing along with anyone who can play the organ. That is all that is required.You see, we must be practical.
How did the congregation learn their current Mass settings or hymns in the first place?
Cat;6656302:
Sure, I could start singing it. And they would cart me out the door and take me straight to the Psych floor at the hospital because apparently I haven’t made it clear-I am just a pianist. I have no right whatsoever to start singing a Latin chant during a Mass in our parish.
You make some excellent points, Brendan!No problemI certainly understand the ‘authority’ aspect, what I was attempting to address was the ‘ability’ aspect.
Oh, those"old" Mass parts. OK, I misunderstood. Thanks.In the sense that he wanted to return to the Mass of Creation or the Mass of Light or the Celtic Mass and others that the parish been singing for decades.
This is one reason why chant will not be readily accepted in parishes.you don’t need accompaniment, piano, organ or otherwise. Just a pitch fork; or pipe; someone to intone; then chant a capella.
Cat, the Church is the one that states that Gregorian Chant holds pride of place in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. The problem is that this is routinely ignored by publishing houses which continue spew out bad music for the Mass. If people can learn the tawdry and bad stuff (which has too many notes to make it singable), then, they would have no problem learning simple chant like Jubilate Deo.This is one reason why chant will not be readily accepted in parishes.
Many people cannot hear the pitch when sounded on an organ or piano, let alone a pitch pipe. So they won’t start out on the right note and that means they will end up in the stratosphere singing high soprano (even if they’re men), or down in the depths singing contrabass (even if they’re women).
And very, very few people can sight read music, so even with modern notation, people will have a hard time reading Gregorian chant. I don’t think I could do it, and I’m a good sight reader. It’s even harder because there is no regular melody with Gregorian chant–it’s just rambling notes, so it’s hard for a sight-reader to have any idea if they are on the right notes or not.
Or is it permissible not to stick with the written notes, but just go either up or down, depending on whether the notes on the staff go up and down? Yechh. I personally find that very hard to listen to.
So many people seem to think this is just the simplest thing, and I disagree vehemently. You’re talking about changing the ears and the voices of most people, and that is very difficult. To me, this would be the equivalent of trying to switch the native language of the U.S. from English to Spanish–certainly it could be done, but it would be very difficult and take a long time.
Very, very few people in the U.S. know anything about Gregorian chant, so unless it is taught correctly, within a few years, it will sound more like Valley Chant, or Chicago-style chant, or country chant. Is that acceptable?
Listen, everyone, I’m not trying to be a pain in the butt. I’m just trying to make you think about the practicalities of what you are demanding. Several posters on this thread are trying to make it sound like the reason we don’t have chant is because Catholics are disobedient, and I disagree with that. We don’t have chant because people don’t know how to chant and there are very few teachers. Until that issue is dealt with, chant won’t happen no matter how obedient and docile Catholics are.
Cat, I’m sorry, but you sound like those scientists who supposedly claimed that it was impossible for a bumblebee to fly. The bumblebees didn’t know that, not being up on their scientific literature, so they just flew.This is one reason why chant will not be readily accepted in parishes.
Many people cannot hear the pitch when sounded on an organ or piano, let alone a pitch pipe. So they won’t start out on the right note and that means they will end up in the stratosphere singing high soprano (even if they’re men), or down in the depths singing contrabass (even if they’re women).
And very, very few people can sight read music, so even with modern notation, people will have a hard time reading Gregorian chant. I don’t think I could do it, and I’m a good sight reader. It’s even harder because there is no regular melody with Gregorian chant–it’s just rambling notes, so it’s hard for a sight-reader to have any idea if they are on the right notes or not.
Or is it permissible not to stick with the written notes, but just go either up or down, depending on whether the notes on the staff go up and down? Yechh. I personally find that very hard to listen to.
So many people seem to think this is just the simplest thing, and I disagree vehemently. You’re talking about changing the ears and the voices of most people, and that is very difficult. To me, this would be the equivalent of trying to switch the native language of the U.S. from English to Spanish–certainly it could be done, but it would be very difficult and take a long time.
Very, very few people in the U.S. know anything about Gregorian chant, so unless it is taught correctly, within a few years, it will sound more like Valley Chant, or Chicago-style chant, or country chant. Is that acceptable?
Listen, everyone, I’m not trying to be a pain in the butt. I’m just trying to make you think about the practicalities of what you are demanding. Several posters on this thread are trying to make it sound like the reason we don’t have chant is because Catholics are disobedient, and I disagree with that. We don’t have chant because people don’t know how to chant and there are very few teachers. Until that issue is dealt with, chant won’t happen no matter how obedient and docile Catholics are.
As I stated before my parish has been doing it for many years A capella. And I joined last year…I am not so musical; but grew up pre Vat II singing in choir throughout all my school years perhaps that’s been helpful. Our director reads the notations well and does a fine job in leading us. If your interested I put up the link to our website in my other post. I wasn’t thinking it helpful to anyone as no one has responded to my post; but maybe it would be helpful to you especially since you have a background in music.This is one reason why chant will not be readily accepted in parishes.
Many people cannot hear the pitch when sounded on an organ or piano, let alone a pitch pipe. So they won’t start out on the right note and that means they will end up in the stratosphere singing high soprano (even if they’re men), or down in the depths singing contrabass (even if they’re women).
And very, very few people can sight read music, so even with modern notation, people will have a hard time reading Gregorian chant. I don’t think I could do it, and I’m a good sight reader. It’s even harder because there is no regular melody with Gregorian chant–it’s just rambling notes, so it’s hard for a sight-reader to have any idea if they are on the right notes or not.
Or is it permissible not to stick with the written notes, but just go either up or down, depending on whether the notes on the staff go up and down? Yechh. I personally find that very hard to listen to.
So many people seem to think this is just the simplest thing, and I disagree vehemently. You’re talking about changing the ears and the voices of most people, and that is very difficult. To me, this would be the equivalent of trying to switch the native language of the U.S. from English to Spanish–certainly it could be done, but it would be very difficult and take a long time.
Very, very few people in the U.S. know anything about Gregorian chant, so unless it is taught correctly, within a few years, it will sound more like Valley Chant, or Chicago-style chant, or country chant. Is that acceptable?
Listen, everyone, I’m not trying to be a pain in the butt. I’m just trying to make you think about the practicalities of what you are demanding. Several posters on this thread are trying to make it sound like the reason we don’t have chant is because Catholics are disobedient, and I disagree with that. We don’t have chant because people don’t know how to chant and there are very few teachers. Until that issue is dealt with, chant won’t happen no matter how obedient and docile Catholics are.
I’m not knocking these things, benedictgal, although I know that you know that I dislike chant. But I readily accept that my personal preference is not the issue. I am not trying to oppose the Church’s dictum that Gregorian chant should hold “pride of place” in the Mass.Cat, the Church is the one that states that Gregorian Chant holds pride of place in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. The problem is that this is routinely ignored by publishing houses which continue spew out bad music for the Mass. If people can learn the tawdry and bad stuff (which has too many notes to make it singable), then, they would have no problem learning simple chant like Jubilate Deo.
Have you even picked up a copy of Jubliate Deo? It is not that hard. If Brendan’s children can pick it up, if the Cathedral’s children’s choir can pick it up (and they had no formal training in music), then why can’t the others? It is not rocket science. Furthermore, there are some chant settings in English. Again, have you seen the ICEL settings for the new parts of the Mass? These are done in chant-style, but, in English. Furthermore, O Come, O Come Emmanuel is actually chant, as are O Sun of Justice and the Attende Domine. These are much easier to sing than what is circulating today from the publishing houses.
With all due respect, before we start knocking things, especially those that the Church holds as important, we need to see the whole picture and look at what is out there.
I am inclined to agree with you on this one. One thing is certain, there will never be a shortage of advice here, even arm-twisting. Yet let us remember that the Church holds to the principle of subsidiarity, making long-distance control and advice undesirable. What is being inserted into the document by default, yet is not there is that this “place of pride” is to be in each parish, as this thread questions. Yet this is not necessary for Gregorian chant to be given a place of pride within the Church’s liturgy universally. Let us also remember that other music “is by no means” excluded. That too is rather emphatic.Gregorian chant is not happening in most parishes, other than the ones that VociMike visits.
Heck, I totally agree. I totally agree that for whatever reasons, most parishes are not doing what the Council Fathers and subsequent popes have asked for.Gregorian chant is not happening in most parishes, other than the ones that VociMike visits.
And where else would it be? Cathedrals only? Then why did the Council state that “It is desirable also that an edition be prepared containing simpler melodies, for use in small churches”?One thing is certain, there will never be a shortage of advice here, even arm-twisting. Yet let us remember that the Church holds to the principle of subsidiarity, making long-distance control and advice undesirable. What is being inserted into the document by default, yet is not there is that this “place of pride” is to be in each parish, as this thread questions.
It would be interesting to see you try and support that claim.Yet this is not necessary for Gregorian chant to be given a place of pride within the Church’s liturgy universally.
Yes, “especially polyphony”. I could start another thread if you like.Let us also remember that other music “is by no means” excluded. That too is rather emphatic.
Cat, is somebody judging you here?I am sure that Cat’s parish appreciates her effort and service. If she is doing her best, then no one here is in any position to judge her.
Cat, there are a few practical things I would suggest for your parish if you want to move forward with this.I’m not knocking these things, benedictgal, although I know that you know that I dislike chant. But I readily accept that my personal preference is not the issue. I am not trying to oppose the Church’s dictum that Gregorian chant should hold “pride of place” in the Mass.
Stop thinking the worst of me! In case some of you can’t see it, I’m trying with all my strength to figure out a way to make the Church’s dictum that “Gregorian chant should have pride of place in Mass” become a reality. I’m trying to spur us on to come up with an action plan to make Gregorian chant in Mass a consistent reality. I’m trying to make you stop bemoaning and bewailing and criticizing Haugen, Haas, and Cat, and instead, think of practical, down-to-earth, REAL ways to make this Church dictum happen. Complaints won’t make it happen. Essays about disobedience and “cafeteria Catholicism” won’t make it happen. Colorful and pejorative descriptions of CCM won’t make it happen.
What will make Gregorian chant happen in Masses all over the U.S. is an action plan, blessed by the Holy Spirit. Very seldom does the Holy Spirit do something outside of human action. The Holy Spirit could tell everyone in the world the Gospel and baptize people, but He chooses to use HUMANS to do the actual work. I think that the Holy Spirit will expect people to do the work of re-establishing Gregorian chant in Mass. I don’t think He’ll just “make it come to pass.” It will be people like me and benedictgal, work-horses, who will bring about the dictums of the Church.
I am not going to be the one to do the training because I need the training myself. But I am very willing, as I always have been, to use my God-given piano skills to help out.
I would like to have some suggestions of reasonable action plans. Step 1 is… Step 2 is… etc. all the way up to “enjoy Gregorian chant in most Masses in your parish.”
I’m just trying to put the nuts and bolts together, OK? I’m not railing and ranting. I’m thinking. I’m planning. I’m designing. I’m working.
Gregorian chant is not happening in most parishes, other than the ones that VociMike visits. Perhaps he gravitates towards very traditional parishes where there are more people who have some training and/or experience doing chant, and that’s why these parishes are able to do it during Mass? But we have several “traditional” parishes (not just the TLM parish) in our diocese, very close to our city, and as far as I know, Gregorian chant doesn’t happen in those parishes either. So I stand by my guns and insist that without someone to lead it and teach it, people won’t sing it. If that “SomeOne” is the Holy Spirit, wonderful.
There have been a few pathetic attempts in my parish by one of the priests to lead the people in chant. I don’t think it was Gregorian chant; I suspect it was plainchant. It was simply awful. People didn’t know what was going on, and very few people joined in.
I had no clue, so I just stood there and listened. But since it wasn’t repeated (after all, the Mass is not the time to teach anyone anything), I didn’t pick it up, and neither did most of the others. It’s possible that some of the older folks knew the chant, but just didn’t have the chops to sing it anymore. I happen to know that quite a few of the “older” folks present that evening were converts, just like me, with no background in any kind of chant (unless you count the “na nas” from Hey Jude).
It was really, really awful. I’m not exaggerating or using hyperbole. Perhaps if Father did the chant week after week, people would pick it up and start learning it. But I’m a skeptic, folks. Like I said in an earlier post, this parish can’t seem to sing Amazing Grace and stay on the right melody. I have stood next to people who can’t even find the melody to the Catholic standard (and Protestant standard, too) “Holy God, We Praise Thy Name.”
So, sorry, but I’m really really skeptical. I think there needs to be a systematic and deliberate action plan in most parishes, or it won’t happen. I’ve been involved in a lot of theatrical productions, and I know from experience that the shows that turn out well are those that are well-planned and well-directed in an organized way, while those that bomb or nearly bomb are those that are thrown together with a hope and a prayer. Music is a lot of work, a lot of nuts and bolts.
I can’t support the claim, nor do I need to. I just read the document. My opinion is in keeping with a literal interpretation of the document. Nothing states that this is to be applied to each parish in the two documents I have read. If the Church ever gives a mandate to apply to each parish, or to each Mass, the language is usually clear. In fact, such mandates are included in the General Instruction.And where else would it be? Cathedrals only? Then why did the Council state that “It is desirable also that an edition be prepared containing simpler melodies, for use in small churches”?
It would be interesting to see you try and support that claim.
I wish I could remember what it was, but I remember reading one of these documents where it stated specifically that there were cases where Latin and chant, etc, would NOT be appropriate, though it didn’t define what they might be.I can’t support the claim, nor do I need to. I just read the document. My opinion is in keeping with a literal interpretation of the document. Nothing states that this is to be applied to each parish in the two documents I have read. If the Church ever gives a mandate to apply to each parish, or to each Mass, the language is usually clear. In fact, such mandates are included in the General Instruction.
As to why we have Jubilate Deo, it is for use in parishes that can handle simple Gregorian chant. Small parishes are always a luck of the draw as to the talent you get. My parish has 1200 families and not one pianist, organist or profession musician in the lot. Such things happen.
Pride of place in litrugcal services. The Mass is a liturgucal service. The document does not say only in certain parishes etc.I can’t support the claim, nor do I need to. I just read the document. My opinion is in keeping with a literal interpretation of the document. Nothing states that this is to be applied to each parish in the two documents I have read. If the Church ever gives a mandate to apply to each parish, or to each Mass, the language is usually clear. In fact, such mandates are included in the General Instruction.
As to why we have Jubilate Deo, it is for use in parishes that can handle simple Gregorian chant. Small parishes are always a luck of the draw as to the talent you get. My parish has 1200 families and not one pianist, organist or profession musician in the lot. Such things happen.