Dolan: Catholic Church needs better outreach to gays

[Tigg]

I don’t identify myself by my sexuality
most people I know don’t either
it sounds like for some people being ‘gay’ is all that matters
aren’t there more important parts to who we are than just our sexuality?
The complete focus on sexual preference (and sex) is what I feel is somewhat ‘disordered’

 

[Tigg]

So… in my view, it may be that Bishop Dolan has a responsibility, he feels on some level, to meld into the general New York and especially New York City mindset.

Others are also picking up on this – but if we reduce the direct affect of church teaching in favor of the popular culture where does that leave the faith?

 

[estesbob]

True, it’s just the foolish laity who get in the way constantly.

In what way?

 

[markeverett49]

True, it’s just the foolish laity who get in the way constantly.

I’m not sure how you mean this.
I didn’t say the laity are foolish. My point was that the Church’s response to homosexual persons exhibits much more evidence of listening than the typical attacks on the Church for being ‘intolerant’ do.

 

[Tigg]

Preaching repentence works best with those who know they are sinners.** It is taken as an insult by those who think their sins are a channel of grace.**

Love it! And those who wish to bring the fullness of life to those who do not have it, alas, become the hated.

 

[estesbob]

I’m not sure how you mean this.
I didn’t say the laity are foolish. My point was that the Church’s response to homosexual persons exhibits much more evidence of listening than the typical attacks on the Church for being ‘intolerant’ do.

Problem is that many Catholics think we should shut up about the issue or start every conversation about the sinfulness of homosexual behavior with “I know Im a homophobic bigot but the Church’s teaching is…”

 

[dailey]

I am sick and tired of it. I’m sick of the sugar coating and denials.

Any sex outside of a marriage between one man and one woman is a mortal sin. PERIOD. It can never be condoned nor accepted. These acts ARE NOT part of God’s Plan and are damnable offenses, unless Confessed before death, nor matter how many feelings are hurt proclaiming the truth and no matter how many people flee the pews. If you are not in a marriage designed by God, you are called to chastity.

God destroyed a city over homosexuality/acts. What doesn’t anyone understand?

Rant over.

Pretty much how I feel…

 

[Tigg]

The following is a note from the president of a Catholic High School, Father Edward Salmon. In his all boys High School two boys want to attend the prom as a couple. Obviously this has caused a stirr. I think his approach to the problem is one that shows compassion (remember that is something all Christians are suppose to show.) The letter is kinda long, but worth the read:

There is a thread on this and it goes much the same direction as this one.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=770506

I find the school’s rationale behind it somewhat naïve when one thinks in terms of adolescent sexuality.

Dance=Date (How do you dance without holding hands?)
Date=Being with someone you really like and is normal hetero sexuality.
Date=a possible future relationship

You see where this is going…at a Catholic school…setting precedents to de-senitize the issue?

 

[jwinch2]

The “New” Tone of U.S. Bishops Sounds Very Familiar

crisismagazine.com/2013/the-new-tone-of-u-s-bishops-sounds-very-familiar

In a frank interview with the Wall Street Journal last year, Cardinal Timothy Dolan conceded that the post-Vatican II Church in America has “gotten gun-shy” on hot-button moral issues. The Church’s encyclical on artificial birth control, Humanae Vitae, “brought such a tsunami of dissent, departure, disapproval of the Church, that I think most of us—and I’m using the first-person plural intentionally, including myself—kind of subconsciously said, ‘Whoa. We’d better never talk about that, because it’s just too hot to handle.’”

The soft-pedaling started, he said, “when the whole world seemed to be caving in, and where Catholics in general got the impression that what the Second Vatican Council taught, first and foremost, is that we should be chums with the world, and that the best thing the church can do is become more and more like everybody else.”

Dolan also traced the softness to squandered moral authority over the sex abuse scandal, which “intensified our laryngitis over speaking about issues of chastity and sexual morality, because we almost thought, ‘I’ll blush if I do…. After what some priests and some bishops, albeit a tiny minority, have done, how will I have any credibility in speaking on that?’”

So, a year ago the Bishops had not been speaking out enough and were afraid to preach the Truth of the evil of homosexual acts and the inherent wrongness of “gay marriage” and now all of a sudden, they have been too harsh? We barely heard a peep from Cardinal Dolan when “gay marriage” was being pushed through in New York until the 11th hour, and now all of a sudden the the tone has been too strident? This simply does not add up.

I am not suggesting attacking people with SSA or demeaning them in any way. However, we must also proclaim the truth boldly and with clarity. Suggesting that we have been mean or harsh when the reality is that the overwhelming majority of bishops and priests never talk about this issue creates a false narrative and plays right into the hands of those pushing this agenda.

 

[Ender]

Not to what but to who. Cardinal Dolan said listen more to people. And people are human beings created by God. Since he was speaking about outreach to gay and lesbian Catholics, I have to conclude he means listening more to them.

Perhaps he meant that the church should speak out less about the issue so as not to offend anyone, although since it is virtually never brought up on Sunday now it might not be possible to speak about it even less. I guess his comments rule out an outreach to his flock to actually explain to them church teaching on the issue. There is no telling how upset people would get if they thought the church actually believed what she teaches on the subject. This issue is taking on the form of the contraception issue of the 70’s where everyone knew what the church taught but no one took it seriously and assumed, with the tacit approval of the bishops, that dissent on the issue was acceptable.

Ender

 

[Cathy]

The thing is, we are ALL objectively disordered. None of us is without sin. I think the problem in this debate is that we are calling out the sin of homosexual acts while ignoring our own sin…

Here again the orientation is confused with the sin. You are so right: we are ALL objectively disordered because of original sin. We are all inclined to sin, and that is an objective disorder. The Church is clear, in the Catechism and other documents, that the inclination to homosexuality is NOT a sin, just as the inclination to gluttony, lust, avarice, etc. is not a sin. But if we act on these inclinations and satisfy our disordered desires to gluttony, lust, avarice, etc., we will be more miserable, more depressed, more unhappy than before, because we have filled our desire for God with an illusion. “Our hearts are restless until we find our rest in Thee.” (St. Augustine, in Confessions) Like St. Augustine, I speak from sad experience with gravely disordered acts. In my first confession at age 45, I felt a huge weight lift off my body. I felt as if I could float. What a tremendous grace! Like St. Augustine, I have found my rest in God’s infinite mercy and love. All of us can if we allow Him to love us.

 

[markeverett49]

Problem is that many Catholics think we should shut up about the issue or start every conversation about the sinfulness of homosexual behavior with “I know Im a homophobic bigot but the Church’s teaching is…”

One reason this issue is before us—not the whole reason but a part—is that so many priests (and others who knew the truth) “shut up” about the twin evils of artificial contraception and abortion. Had that not happened, few indeed would see the quest for same-sex ‘marriage’ as reasonable, let alone inevitable!

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

In what way?

Just look at the poll numbers, most Catholic don’t know or care what the Church teaches when it comes to gay marriage. Of the remainder many are hysterically conservative and they don’t even have the guts to be an honourable reactionary. The latter group tend to act like absurd Fundamentalist Protestant instead of the rational and compassionate Catholics we should be. On this forum I have seen particularly charming things like that “gays are slaves of Satan”, “gays are devil worshippers” “gays are out to destroy civilization”, “we should make sodomy a capital offense” when these are all rationally and theologically utter tosh.

 

[estesbob]

Just look at the poll numbers, most Catholic don’t know or care what the Church teaches when it comes to gay marriage. Of the remainder many are hysterically conservative and they don’t even have the guts to be an honourable reactionary. The latter group tend to act like absurd Fundamentalist Protestant instead of the rational and compassionate Catholics we should be. On this forum I have seen particularly charming things like that “gays are slaves of Satan”, “gays are devil worshippers” “gays are out to destroy civilization”, “we should make sodomy a capital offense” when these are all rationally and theologically utter tosh.

Actually I’ve seen the much more of the opposite-Catholics who believe a greater sin than homosexuality is believing homosexuality is a sin.

But again-what do you the church needs to improve in their outreach to those who enggae in homosexual behavior

 

[fix]

Actually I’ve seen the much more of the opposite-Catholics who believe a greater sin than homosexuality is believing homosexuality is a sin.

But again-what do you the church needs to improve in their outreach to those who enggae in homosexual behavior

Not only that but large numbers claim to be Catholic while nuancing Church teaching. Claiming to accept Church teaching but watering it down so that it is not recognizable.

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

Actually I’ve seen the much more of the opposite-Catholics who believe a greater sin than homosexuality is believing homosexuality is a sin.

But again-what do you the church needs to improve in their outreach to those who enggae in homosexual behavior

See the first sentence in that post

Gag the ignorant laity.

 

[jwinch2]

Just look at the poll numbers, most Catholic don’t know or care what the Church teaches when it comes to gay marriage. Of the remainder many are hysterically conservative and they don’t even have the guts to be an honourable reactionary. The latter group tend to act like absurd Fundamentalist Protestant instead of the rational and compassionate Catholics we should be. On this forum I have seen particularly charming things like that “gays are slaves of Satan”, “gays are devil worshippers” “gays are out to destroy civilization”, “we should make sodomy a capital offense” when these are all rationally and theologically utter tosh.

You are exactly correct in my view. The first problem is simple to understand. Our Bishops and Priests have not taught on this with any conviction and when they have, it has been drowned out by them teaching on area where they have no competence such as endorsing specific solutions to things like (the economy, crime, illegal immigration, etc.). When they teach in specifics on things which are not their purview, it only leads people to ignore them in other areas.

As for the second, if every Bishop and Priest out there took a page out of Archbishop Salvatore Cordileone’s book, we would get our point across and be compassionate at the same time.
usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/03/21/archbishop-cordileone-gay-marriage-catholic-church/2001085/

 

[jwinch2]

Claiming to accept Church teaching but watering it down so that it is not recognizable.

http://ts4.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.5040827938112703&pid=1.7

 

[Tigg]

Our Bishops and Priests have not taught on this with any conviction and when they have, it has been drowned out by them teaching on area where they have no competence such as endorsing specific solutions to things like (the economy, crime, illegal immigration, etc.). When they teach in specifics on things which are not their purview, it only leads people to ignore them in other areas.

Yes, we have sown the wind. And now comes the whirlwind. Enter the “gay” community.
~ Monsignor Charles Pope ~

 

[rossum]

Perhaps he meant that the church should speak out less about the issue so as not to offend anyone, although since it is virtually never brought up on Sunday now it might not be possible to speak about it even less. I guess his comments rule out an outreach to his flock to actually explain to them church teaching on the issue. There is no telling how upset people would get if they thought the church actually believed what she teaches on the subject. This issue is taking on the form of the contraception issue of the 70’s where everyone knew what the church taught but no one took it seriously and assumed, with the tacit approval of the bishops, that dissent on the issue was acceptable.

Perhaps Cardinal Dolan meant that the Church should speak out, but adjust what it speaks out about. “The Catholic Church is strongly opposed to homophobic bullying in schools and universities,” is perfectly good Catholic doctrine, and is far more likely to attract homosexuals towards the Catholic Church than to repel them.

The Church has a wide range of stances on an equally wide range of subjects. It is possible to be more flexible about what is emphasised, especially when reaching out to non-Catholics.

rossum