Dolan: Catholic Church needs better outreach to gays

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Of course they did-they also preached to sinners-with the same message preached to sinners today-repent and sin no more. This is the message they should be evangalized with.
How about “We love you as a human being created in the image and likeness of G-d, then explain the moral teachings of the Church, and finally present the good news: you can repent of your sins and be forgiven, even though you may sin again”? Is this method not tough enough?
 
estesbob,

I don’t think it is being suggested that the truth be watered down, but that the focus not be on the sin, just as none of us would want our sins focused on if we wanted or needed to be led to the Church.

Very often, the welcome comes first and the knowledge/realization of our sinfulness comes second. I agree that it should not be implied that doctrine is not doctrine, but rather the sequence or methodology is what is being discussed. 🤷
I really don’t get this whole welcoming bit. If the Church proclaims the Truth, those who wish to know the Truth will seek it out and come to the Church. Perhaps the Church needs to proclaim that it has the fullness of the Truth and that other philosophies and religions just don’t measure up to Catholicism (well, obviously better worded than that, but you get my drfit). When I was searching for the Truth as a Jew, I didn’t need the Church to welcome me to church.

I think if the Church worrried less about offending others and just proclaimed the Truth unabashadly, people will listen…eventually.
 
How about “We love you as a human being created in the image and likeness of G-d, then explain the moral teachings of the Church, and finally present the good news: you can repent of your sins and be forgiven, even though you may sin again”? Is this method not tough enough?
Do you really think there are homosexuals who dont know the moral teachings of the Church?
 
How about “We love you as a human being created in the image and likeness of G-d, then explain the moral teachings of the Church, and finally present the good news: you can repent of your sins and be forgiven, even though you may sin again”? Is this method not tough enough?
Why would the outreach to homosexuals be any different than the outreach to anyone else living a sinful lifestyle?
 
How about “We love you as a human being created in the image and likeness of G-d, then explain the moral teachings of the Church, and finally present the good news: you can repent of your sins and be forgiven, even though you may sin again”? Is this method not tough enough?
The Church has always said this. The charitable institutions the Church has started alone is good evidence of the goodwill of the Church.
 
I think the whole “welcoming” thing is also tricky. My pastor read a “Welcome” to various people during Christmas (and then easter). It included “whether you are straight or whether you are gay” and I think that could lead others to believe that oh, being (openly) gay is okay …and …I can receive communion. I know this may NOT be what the preist is inferring, but I think it can get tricky.
 
Why would the outreach to homosexuals be any different than the outreach to anyone else living a sinful lifestyle?
Bob, not different in kind, but perhaps in degree since some homosexuals may be more turned off by the Church than are sinners who fit into various other categories. I think this was Cardinal Dolan’s point. But in principle, if not in practice, I agree with you. I surmise that as an egalitarian you don’t believe in affirmative action of any sort.
 
Why would the outreach to homosexuals be any different than the outreach to anyone else living a sinful lifestyle?
It shouldn’t be any different. Jesus said ‘I have not come to call the just; I have come to call sinners to repentance’. The Church outreaches to all sinners. It’s full of sinners. But if you don’t think you are a sinner then you are not going to embrace Christ’s Church.
 
I really don’t get this whole welcoming bit. If the Church proclaims the Truth, those who wish to know the Truth will seek it out and come to the Church. Perhaps the Church needs to proclaim that it has the fullness of the Truth and that other philosophies and religions just don’t measure up to Catholicism (well, obviously better worded than that, but you get my drfit). When I was searching for the Truth as a Jew, I didn’t need the Church to welcome me to church.

I think if the Church worrried less about offending others and just proclaimed the Truth unabashadly, people will listen…eventually.
I want to be very clear that I do not recommend, or support on the part of any of the clergy, a dilution, let alone an apology, for settled doctrine.

Theoretically, you are correct: And in support of your premise, the Church does take somewhat of a “hard” (unyielding) position on non-validated heterosexual marriages, remarriages after divorce, and other objectively forbidden situations in which people have chosen to estrange themselves from the Church. I think what Dolan is suggesting has to do with pragmatics – again, method & approach.

Let me put a difference case to you:
I had a friend many years ago who had been, in the past, in some kind of marriage situation which I learned did not prevent her from receiving Communion (her current marriage was valid), yet she had been made to feel guilty about whatever the canonical circumstances were. (I honestly forget the details, but I knew at the time.) So she operated with an overabundance of caution and attended Mass but refrained from Eucharist. It came out little by little that she felt unwelcome. Later (fast forward to today) the Church has realized that it needs to take more initiative in the realm of people in ambivalent situations like hers. That includes outreach to the divorced, which the Church has acknowledged She has been lacking in.

It’s not a matter of softening doctrine. Hopefully you understand that I am in conplete agreement with you about that. I seriously doubt that Dolan intends to soft-pedal objectively sinful matters. It’s a matter of embracing “the lost sheep” through positive rather than negative means, as a method. It’s about communication.

Some people in the Church are very confused about the mere attraction to homosexuality, and assume that such attraction prevents them from ever being equal members of the Body of Christ, regardless of their behavior. Naturally, they’re wrong, but the hyper-awareness is often there, on the part of those attracted, and on the part of some who are in the Church. As long as the message does not further confuse, I see no problem with it. OTOH, I very much see a problem (scandal) created by admittedly active homosexual couples attending Mass, bringing their lovers to Mass, and receiving Communion together. This has happened often in my region, and occasionally still does.

Tolerance for the attraction does not translate to tolerance for the behavior. Two very different animals. Some parishes (pastors) have not at all been clear about that.. Such pastors act afraid to reiterate Church teachings along with the “tolerance” and “welcome.” Such leaders are not doing anyone any favors, including the homosexual couples involved.
 
By She I was referring to the Church.

If people are confused they can seek clarification. We tend to presume ill will immediately. It is unfortunate.
I agree. It’s a tough nut to crack. I do believe it is incumbent upon the person seeking truth (whatever the issue may be…and in this case of course God’s plan regarding sexuality) to investigate the issue and make an informed decision. Our job is to express the truth with love.

Peace.
 
Since I am myself a scripture scholar who has studied this issue widely, conversing with other scholars in that regard, no I do not respect the faulty methodology employed by all of those I have read with rogue ideas (which include the above) about the Mosaic Code and Jesus’ adherence to it. It’s about their academic approaches, which are severely lacking, and mine is the majority opinion, I hate to tell you. Correct, I don’t “have to agree,” because the basis of agreement would be faulty methodology, judged by the consensus of unanimously respected scripture scholars on this issue..
Yes I heard your opinion the first time. You and the scholars you converse with, unanimously don’t respect them. And your opinion is majority opinion. I’m certainly not going to lose any sleep over your or their opinion though. Because for starters those scholars today of various other faiths who disagree with you and with those scholars who you do respect, might not be unanimous in agreeing with you on who is respected. 🤷 But you can keep repeating it if it makes you feel better.
 
Yes I heard your opinion the first time. You and the scholars you converse with, unanimously don’t respect them. You can keep repeating it if it makes you feel better. I’m certainly not going to lose any sleep over your or their opinion though.
I think it’s a case of Uh-huh Yourself.

It’s an entire body of scholars, CMatt: It’s the majority opinion, by far, on this issue. It’s not a private circle of “my” colleagues, so you actually should be concerned if you do care about what the Roman Catholic Church teaches, which is not what UCC, United Methodist, Unitarian Universalist, or some maverick lone Episcopalian radical deduces about scripture, without basis, which you keep repeating on the forum to try to convince educated Catholics that they must or even might be wrong on the issue, when they are not. You are in the minority, as is your tiny circle of rogue rationalizers, and it is you who keep repeating the same song on CAF, and have for years: Hear Ye, Hear Ye: radical theologians support homosexuality as a holy lifestyle; Come, all Ye doubting Catholics and join me in my effort to draw you away from the magisterium.

Learn a new song, please. We’ve heard it far more than we’ve heard you support the genuine theology from the Church.
 
I think it’s a case of Uh-huh Yourself.

It’s an entire body of scholars, CMatt: It’s the majority opinion, by far, on this issue. It’s not a private circle of “my” colleagues, so you actually should be concerned if you do care about what the Roman Catholic Church teaches, which is not what UCC, United Methodist, Unitarian Universalist, or some maverick lone Episcopalian radical deduces about scripture, without basis, which you keep repeating on the forum to try to convince educated Catholics that they must or even might be wrong on the issue, when they are not. You are in the minority, as is your tiny circle of rogue rationalizers, and it is you who keep repeating the same song on CAF, and have for years: Hear Ye, Hear Ye: radical theologians support homosexuality as a holy lifestyle; Come, all Ye doubting Catholics and join me in my effort to draw you away from the magisterium.

Learn a new song, please. We’ve heard it far more than we’ve heard you support the genuine theology from the Church.
No you are very mistaken. My intent has never been to try to convince Catholics they are wrong or to lead them away from the Magisterium by simply discussing other faith or political beliefs that differ from Catholicism. But I wasn’t aware CAF is only allowing Catholic beliefs to be discussed now on for instance the news and non Catholic subforums.
 
MODERATOR NOTICE

This thread is wandering. Please return to the topic of the original post
 
I want to be very clear that I do not recommend, or support on the part of any of the clergy, a dilution, let alone an apology, for settled doctrine.

Theoretically, you are correct: And in support of your premise, the Church does take somewhat of a “hard” (unyielding) position on non-validated heterosexual marriages, remarriages after divorce, and other objectively forbidden situations in which people have chosen to estrange themselves from the Church. I think what Dolan is suggesting has to do with pragmatics – again, method & approach.

Let me put a difference case to you:
I had a friend many years ago who had been, in the past, in some kind of marriage situation which I learned did not prevent her from receiving Communion (her current marriage was valid), yet she had been made to feel guilty about whatever the canonical circumstances were. (I honestly forget the details, but I knew at the time.) So she operated with an overabundance of caution and attended Mass but refrained from Eucharist. It came out little by little that she felt unwelcome. Later (fast forward to today) the Church has realized that it needs to take more initiative in the realm of people in ambivalent situations like hers. That includes outreach to the divorced, which the Church has acknowledged She has been lacking in.

It’s not a matter of softening doctrine. Hopefully you understand that I am in conplete agreement with you about that. I seriously doubt that Dolan intends to soft-pedal objectively sinful matters. It’s a matter of embracing “the lost sheep” through positive rather than negative means, as a method. It’s about communication.

Some people in the Church are very confused about the mere attraction to homosexuality, and assume that such attraction prevents them from ever being equal members of the Body of Christ, regardless of their behavior. Naturally, they’re wrong, but the hyper-awareness is often there, on the part of those attracted, and on the part of some who are in the Church. As long as the message does not further confuse, I see no problem with it. OTOH, I very much see a problem (scandal) created by admittedly active homosexual couples attending Mass, bringing their lovers to Mass, and receiving Communion together. This has happened often in my region, and occasionally still does.

Tolerance for the attraction does not translate to tolerance for the behavior. Two very different animals. Some parishes (pastors) have not at all been clear about that.. Such pastors act afraid to reiterate Church teachings along with the “tolerance” and “welcome.” Such leaders are not doing anyone any favors, including the homosexual couples involved.
I agree, tact doesn’t mean watering down the theology.
 
People who dislike the Churches’ firm biblical doctrines are free to start their own lukewarm denomination. The sheep will vote with their feet.

"Thus did Western Man decide to abolish himself, creating his own boredom out of his own affluence, his own vulnerability out of his own strength, his own impotence out of his own erotomania, himself blowing the trumpet that brought the walls of his own city tumbling down, and having convinced himself that he was too numerous, labored with pill and scalpel and syringe to make himself fewer. Until at last, having educated himself into imbecility, and polluted and drugged himself into stupefaction, he keeled over–a weary, battered old brontosaurus–and became extinct.”
  • Malcolm Muggeridge (The True Crisis of Our Time)
 
People who dislike the Churches’ firm biblical doctrines are free to start their own lukewarm denomination.
Indeed. No one is forced to stay inside the embrace of Holy Mother Church. She invites, does not force, but the invitation is to comply, not live like a libertine and promote libertine values. Everyone is free to leave. No one is free to distort and misrepresent the truths of scripture and the doctrines of the magisterium merely because some other traditions do, or selected individuals in those traditions, do. We are not other traditions. We are the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church. Being part of this church assumes an acceptance of those four marks.

Back to the topic: I have stated my general support for the Cardinal’s general suggestion, which is pastoral, not doctrinal. I also support the concerns of others on this thread that the welcoming should be paired with catechesis and re-introduction to some essentials of the faith, much like what happens with Homecomings, Catholics Come Home, Landings, etc. It is not more true for homosexuals than for others who have drifted off or who perceive that they cannot return. Those others, too (the divorced, the lapsed, the remarried, and more) need to know that the place to convert is not “other religions” but inside the One True Faith, which alone is Home. 🙂 I think it is properly , always, a two- or even three-pronged process of welcoming, evaluating, and becoming educated in what is and is not acceptable to believe, to practice, as well as what it means to be an authentic witness instead of a cause for scandal.
 
I think it’s a case of Uh-huh Yourself.

It’s an entire body of scholars, CMatt: It’s the majority opinion, by far, on this issue. It’s not a private circle of “my” colleagues, so you actually should be concerned if you do care about what the Roman Catholic Church teaches, which is not what UCC, United Methodist, Unitarian Universalist, or some maverick lone Episcopalian radical deduces about scripture, without basis, which you keep repeating on the forum to try to convince educated Catholics that they must or even might be wrong on the issue, when they are not. You are in the minority, as is your tiny circle of rogue rationalizers, and it is you who keep repeating the same song on CAF, and have for years: Hear Ye, Hear Ye: radical theologians support homosexuality as a holy lifestyle; Come, all Ye doubting Catholics and join me in my effort to draw you away from the magisterium.

Learn a new song, please. We’ve heard it far more than we’ve heard you support the genuine theology from the Church.
I can concur 👍
 
Didn’t the Apostles preach to gentiles as well as Jews and weren’t the former not particularly willing to follow Jewish Law first before becoming followers of Christ, as the Apostles soon realized?

How else would you have Cardinal Dolan preach to those who ignore the moral authority of the Church? Would telling them they will go to hell if they don’t obey be more effective than welcoming them into the Church and offering them the hope of redemption? How would you prefer to be evangelized?
I pointed out a difference I think significant: the “God-fearers” among the Gentiles were interested in what Peter and other Apostles had to say. They preached in public, not going door to door. I feel for Cardinal Dolan: he must deal with many Catholics who believe they know better than the magisterium what is right and wrong; he also is called to answer to many non-Catholics who are insulted he dare teach something they find offensive. That’s a tough position to be in.

Hannah Arendt’s essay “What is Authority” is helpful in this light. She pointed out that few moderns appreciate the difference between authority and power. Whenever people–Catholic or not—think a new pope can, say, just change the teaching on abortion and same-sex marriage (or the ordination of women) they are looking at the role of pope as a position of power. (“He’s got the big stick–he could change all this if he wanted to!”) When we read in “Ordinatio Sacerdotalis” that the Church has no authority to ordain women, this is a use of “authority” that few moderns understand.
 
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