Dolan: Catholic Church needs better outreach to gays

[markeverett49]

I am wondering if there has been a call for a special outreach to blasphemers? Adulterers? Liars? Those who dishonor their parents?

I am so tired of this act getting “most favored sin” status. sigh

If you amended that to “most often publicly denied sin” you’d be closer to the truth. Pornography harms more people, and the Church preaches against that too, but few who use pornography insist the Church must STOP saying there’s anything wrong with it. Big difference.

If fewer people tried to “re-define” this sin, more energy could be devoted to other moral faults. (That said, the Church hammers on against greed and corruption and adultery and…)

 

[Luigi_Daniele]

If you amended that to “most often publicly denied sin” you’d be closer to the truth. Pornography harms more people, and the Church preaches against that too, but few who use pornography insist the Church must STOP saying there’s anything wrong with it. Big difference.

If fewer people tried to “re-define” this sin, more energy could be devoted to other moral faults. (That said, the Church hammers on against greed and corruption and adultery and…)

I once saw a sign at a Catholic parish advertising a “Gay Mass”. Made me sick to my stomach.

 

[CopticChristian]

Just how is Homosexuality intrinsically disordered or unnatural when it does occur in nature see attached article. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals

Seeker,

Please go to this thread…

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=757904

Those Homosexual Animals

it will allow you to rethink this…

 

[CopticChristian]

And that’s where liberals get those who are not in favor of gay marriage. I’m sorry if there are those of liberal leanings on this message board as I do not mean to lump all of you together, but I have seen this tactic play out time and time again. If you do not support gay marriage then you are automatically intolerant and bigoted. As for me? I’m guilty as sin of trying to avoid homosexuals because I sometimes have a hard time separating the person from the sin. But there are many Catholics and other Christians out there who do not do this and I need to strive to better live by their example.

Bottom line…we need to somehow better communicate just what we believe. Jesus said to love all people, including sinners. We saw this in his ministry. He didn’t hang out with the righteous. He spent his time on earth hanging out with some of the biggest sinners in all of Judea. With this example in mind we need to love homosexuals just as we love all other people. It’s just a sin to act on those tendencies.

Roll,

But, at the same time, we need to point out the sinfulness of their lifestyle. It’s not a sin to be gay.

Can you imagine one person that may be struggling with SSA and you post…“it is not a sin to be gay” and that person is wondering…“all I have is SSA, does that mean I am gay?..I don’t want to be gay…I just have this attraction”…

Are you really aiding the conversation by saying this?

 

[JimG]

“With this decision I am not contradicting the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church with regard to human sexuality; I am not encouraging nor am I condoning homosexual activity just as I do not encourage or condone heterosexual activity at a dance.”
This is a little puzzling to me. Isn’t a dance a sort of courting activity? To the extent that it is, it is of course a heterosexual activity.

 

[Luigi_Daniele]

Roll,

Can you imagine one person that may be struggling with SSA and you post…“it is not a sin to be gay” and that person is wondering…“all I have is SSA, does that mean I am gay?..I don’t want to be gay…I just have this attraction”…

Are you really aiding the conversation by saying this?

But it’s true. It is not a sin to have homosexual attraction, as long as one does not act on it (yes, I realize that this is a bit of an oversimplification, but I am sure that you catch my meaning).

Now obviously, those with SSA must “avoid the near occasion of sin” just as I, you and all of us must with regards to our “favorite” sins.

 

[CopticChristian]

But it’s true. It is not a sin to have homosexual attraction, as long as one does not act on it (yes, I realize that this is a bit of an oversimplification, but I am sure that you catch my meaning).

Now obviously, those with SSA must “avoid the near occasion of sin” just as I, you and all of us must with regards to our “favorite” sins.

LD,

You are correct…reference the statement and reframe your answer please…

But, at the same time, we need to point out the sinfulness of their lifestyle. It’s not a sin to be gay.

There is a difference in understanding for someone to say…

I suffer from SSA
I suffer from Homosexuality
I suffer from being Gay

If you had a problem like Adultery, which do you prefer

I suffer from the temptation to be an Adulterer
I suffer as an Adulterer
I suffer in my Adultery

Do you see the difference?

 

[Luigi_Daniele]

LD,

You are correct…reference the statement and reframe your answer please…

There is a difference in understanding for someone to say…

I suffer from SSA
I suffer from Homosexuality
I suffer from being Gay

If you had a problem like Adultery, which do you prefer

I suffer from the temptation to be an Adulterer
I suffer as an Adulterer
I suffer in my Adultery

Do you see the difference?

Yup Thanks for the clarification

 

[Pulvis]

Lets keep it simple:
Epistle of Saint Paul to the Romans; Ch. 1
"[16] For I am not ashamed of the gospel. For it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth, to the Jew first, and to the Greek. [17] For the justice of God is revealed therein, from faith unto faith, as it is written: The just man liveth by faith. [18] For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and injustice of those men that detain the truth of God in injustice: [19] Because that which is known of God is manifest in them. For God hath manifested it unto them. [20] For the invisible things of him, from the creation of the world, are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made; his eternal power also, and divinity: so that they are inexcusable.

[21] Because that, when they knew God, they have not glorified him as God, or given thanks; but became vain in their thoughts, and their foolish heart was darkened. [22] For professing themselves to be wise, they became fools. [23] And they changed the glory of the incorruptible God into the likeness of the image of a corruptible man, and of birds, and of fourfooted beasts, and of creeping things. [24] Wherefore God gave them up to the desires of their heart, unto uncleanness, to dishonour their own bodies among themselves. [25] Who changed the truth of God into a lie; and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

[26]** For this cause God delivered them up to shameful affections**. For their women have changed the natural use into that use which is against nature. [27] And, in like manner, the men also, leaving the natural use of the women, have burned in their lusts one towards another, men with men working that which is filthy, and receiving in themselves the recompense which was due to their error. [28] And as they liked not to have God in their knowledge, God delivered them up to a reprobate sense, to do those things which are not convenient; [29] Being filled with all iniquity, malice, fornication, avarice, wickedness, full of envy, murder, contention, deceit, malignity, whisperers, [30] Detractors, hateful to God, contumelious, proud, haughty, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

[31] Foolish, dissolute, without affection, without fidelity, without mercy. [32] Who, having known the justice of God, did not understand that they who do such things, are worthy of death; and not only they that do them, but they also that consent to them that do them."

I can find no wiggle room here. No grey area to be debated, messaged or interpreted.
If we cannot stand and defend The Truth, why do we bother being Christian?
True Charity is to convince the sinner to quit sinning, to save their immortal Soul!

 

[CopticChristian]

Lets keep it simple:
Epistle of Saint Paul to the Romans; Ch. 1
"[16] For I am not ashamed of the gospel. For it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth, to the Jew first, and to the Greek. [17] For the justice of God is revealed therein, from faith unto faith, as it is written: The just man liveth by faith. [18] For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and injustice of those men that detain the truth of God in injustice: [19] Because that which is known of God is manifest in them. For God hath manifested it unto them. [20] For the invisible things of him, from the creation of the world, are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made; his eternal power also, and divinity: so that they are inexcusable.

[21] Because that, when they knew God, they have not glorified him as God, or given thanks; but became vain in their thoughts, and their foolish heart was darkened. [22] For professing themselves to be wise, they became fools. [23] And they changed the glory of the incorruptible God into the likeness of the image of a corruptible man, and of birds, and of fourfooted beasts, and of creeping things. [24] Wherefore God gave them up to the desires of their heart, unto uncleanness, to dishonour their own bodies among themselves. [25] Who changed the truth of God into a lie; and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

[26]** For this cause God delivered them up to shameful affections**. For their women have changed the natural use into that use which is against nature. [27] And, in like manner, the men also, leaving the natural use of the women, have burned in their lusts one towards another, men with men working that which is filthy, and receiving in themselves the recompense which was due to their error. [28] And as they liked not to have God in their knowledge, God delivered them up to a reprobate sense, to do those things which are not convenient; [29] Being filled with all iniquity, malice, fornication, avarice, wickedness, full of envy, murder, contention, deceit, malignity, whisperers, [30] Detractors, hateful to God, contumelious, proud, haughty, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

[31] Foolish, dissolute, without affection, without fidelity, without mercy. [32] Who, having known the justice of God, did not understand that they who do such things, are worthy of death; and not only they that do them, but they also that consent to them that do them."

I can find no wiggle room here. No grey area to be debated, messaged or interpreted.
If we cannot stand and defend The Truth, why do we bother being Christian?
True Charity is to convince the sinner to quit sinning, to save their immortal Soul!

Pulvis,

Keep it simple, what is the point?

 

[Stylteralmaldo]

No person is objectively disordered. Some inclinations are objectively disordered. The inclination toward homosexuality is objectively disordered. Heterosexuality is not disordered. Only in these relativistic, effete times would anyone need to parse out in pedantic detail what is common sense and rational.

Isn’t it common sense and rational to state that someone who has homosexual feelings is in fact a disordered person due to their inclination? Not sure why stating this is considered relativistic.

 

[CopticChristian]

Isn’t it common sense and rational to state that someone who has homosexual feelings is in fact a disordered person due to their inclination? Not sure why stating this is considered relativistic.

Style,

No, this makes as much sense as saying I am disordered because I am sexually attracted to women…The attraction is not disordered, the action is disordered…

It is disordered to copulate with someone elses wife
It is disordered to Masturbate
It is disordered to copulate with your girlfriend
It is disordered to produce pornography

 

[Lormar]

I am wondering if there has been a call for a special outreach to blasphemers? Adulterers? Liars? Those who dishonor their parents?

I am so tired of this act getting “most favored sin” status. sigh

Agreed. This is not a good way to win support and friends.

 

[Edward_H]

“With this decision I am not contradicting the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church with regard to human sexuality; I am not encouraging nor am I condoning homosexual activity just as I do not encourage or condone heterosexual activity at a dance.”
This is a little puzzling to me. Isn’t a dance a sort of courting activity? To the extent that it is, it is of course a heterosexual activity.

Well put.

 

[Stylteralmaldo]

Why do you assume that you have to start talking about “objective disorder” in any such “conversation?” Let alone, that you should talk about it. Let alone, that sexuality of any kind must be a conversation-starter or -sustainer between and among people of goodwill and charity?

It isn’t “a subject” in my conversations, at least not one that I ever bring up. I also wouldn’t bring it up with single heterosexuals, as that is gauche, and therefore also uncharitable.

If you can’t receive and love people without examining their sins and disordered attractions, then you aren’t worthy of being a follower of Christ – unless such people demand that you affirm their sins and disorders as a condition of any kind of conversation, let alone a sustained relationship. The whole premise is frankly absurd.

If the premise were applied to me, I would have zero friends, quite simply.

My comment was in jest. If I had a conversation with someone who is homosexual and the conversation happened to discuss homosexuality and how it relates to God’s plan for salvation, I would express God’s revelation as expressed by the Catholic Church. The jest part was that ‘by the way you’re objectively disordered’ would come up at some point. Of course it is the inclination towards homosexuality that is disordered, and not the essence of the person in question. The point is, we as a Church are failing to get the point across to the homosexual community and it’s getting more difficult now that more and more of the mainstream is accepting the lifestyle as somehow normal.

 

[Stylteralmaldo]

This is not correct. When a man has sexual desires toward a woman that is objectively rightly ordered. It only becomes disordered if the desire is for a woman who is not his wife or if other conditions are met such as lust, objectification, etc.

When a man has sexual desires for another man, that is objectively disordered. There is **no condition **that would make it ordered rightly to the faculty of human sexuality.

BTW, to you and to Marie, the Church takes great pains to **never **refer to a person as disordered. A person suffering from homosexual desires is bearing the burden of a disorder in much the same way that a person who cannot see is bearing the disorder of blindness.

I stated that the condition is disordered when the married heterosexual person has sexual desires for someone who is not his wife.

Are you suggesting that we make sure to avoid telling blind people that being blind is not normal? I’m all for being sensitive to these things, but it seems to me that it would be difficult to move forward in the evangelization of convincing homosexual persons to not pursue their disordered desires if we say they are not in fact disordered…perhaps it could be worded to sound less offensive, but someone who desires something that is not natural is disordered would you not agree?

 

[Stylteralmaldo]

Style,

No, this makes as much sense as saying I am disordered because I am sexually attracted to women…The attraction is not disordered, the action is disordered…

It is disordered to copulate with someone elses wife
It is disordered to Masturbate
It is disordered to copulate with your girlfriend
It is disordered to produce pornography

Let me get this straight…it is NOT disordered to have sexual feelings for someone of the same sex?

That doesn’t sound right to me.

I think you may be confusing sin (acting on a disordered desire) and a disordered desire (attraction to someone of the same sex).

 

[3DOCTORS]

I will add to, about the comment on happiness that the only way to happiness is thru marriage between one man and one woman.

I know plenty of gay couples, and they are happy. So not sure how that thought reflects the reality many gay couples experience in all honesty.

Oh boy. I keep telling myself I need to take a break from posting on homosexuality threads.

But here I am, and I don’t intend to sound like Miss Sourpuss, Marie. Nevertheless I feel compelled to point out that “happiness” is not the barometer by which we measure moral rightness or wrongness of something.

Context? I’m a single lady age 50. Never found that wonderful Catholic husband I dreamed of. Spent some years lonely and depressed about it. Maybe at times felt tempted to go meet a guy and get into a sexual relationship just to “have a boyfriend” or even because it seems like men don’t give chaste women credibility, much less a marriage proposal. When you get to my age, you seem like some kind of freak even, for not being “experienced.”

But who cares? My Faith calls me to live as a chaste heterosexual woman, even if that’s till I die. And that I will do. Live that way, I mean.

And guess what - in the last few years, I have been . . . wait for it . . . happy! Happy that I didn’t compromise. Happy not to have wound up in divorce court or living with a drunk or a wife-beater or even somebody who just used me for sexual gratification. As I have seen so many of my girlfriends who did compromise end up.

Even the ones who did choose well, and were blessed to find good husbands, and were able to have children and grandchildren, I no longer envy. I have learned to be happy for them, because I know that God has a plan for me, as the prophet Jeremiah says, to prosper and not harm me, to give me hope and a future. :yup:

Hope I haven’t derailed the thread too much.

 

[MHT32]

Dolan was spot on, the Church really does. I mean, most gays I know dislike the Church. Not because they actually know it, but because they have listened to what others have said about it and assume it to be bigoted and what not. We need a better outreach to gays no doubt

 

[Edward_H]

Oh boy. I keep telling myself I need to take a break from posting on homosexuality threads.

But here I am, and I don’t intend to sound like Miss Sourpuss, Marie. Nevertheless I feel compelled to point out that “happiness” is not the barometer by which we measure moral rightness or wrongness of something.

Context? I’m a single lady age 50. Never found that wonderful Catholic husband I dreamed of. Spent some years lonely and depressed about it. Maybe at times felt tempted to go meet a guy and get into a sexual relationship just to “have a boyfriend” or even because it seems like men don’t give chaste women credibility, much less a marriage proposal. When you get to my age, you seem like some kind of freak even, for not being “experienced.”

But who cares? My Faith calls me to live as a chaste heterosexual woman, even if that’s till I die. And that I will do. Live that way, I mean.

And guess what - in the last few years, I have been . . . wait for it . . . happy! Happy that I didn’t compromise. Happy not to have wound up in divorce court or living with a drunk or a wife-beater or even somebody who just used me for sexual gratification. As I have seen so many of my girlfriends who did compromise end up.

Even the ones who did choose well, and were blessed to find good husbands, and were able to have children and grandchildren, I no longer envy. I have learned to be happy for them, because I know that God has a plan for me, as the prophet Jeremiah says, to prosper and not harm me, to give me hope and a future. :yup:

Hope I haven’t derailed the thread too much.

Well said. Where do we get Catholics like you?! Remarkable truth telling.