Dolan: Whoever thinks he could be next Pope must be on dope

[Lucky7]

First of all you were talking about mortal sin…of which we can never be sure if someone is in a state of.

As far as the rest…I guess that would depend on if you are more interested in the black/white of it then in the state of her soul…

To which I would then ask, why does the Church have these rules in the first place? If the state of one’s soul is the main focus (which I agree would be) then why have automatic excommunication at all?

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

To which I would then ask, why does the Church have these rules in the first place? If the state of one’s soul is the main focus (which I agree would be) then why have automatic excommunication at all?

I believe that NewEnglandPriest answered that for you already…did he not? What good comes from excommunicating some who is dead???

 

[JamesCaruso]

To which I would then ask, why does the Church have these rules in the first place? If the state of one’s soul is the main focus (which I agree would be) then why have automatic excommunication at all?

Maybe as a warning to anyone contemplating an abortion?

 

[Cojuanco]

Maybe as a warning to anyone contemplating an abortion?

To warn the recipient that they’re in a bad place, as far as us mortals can tell, and they ought to retreat to safer ground.

 

[Lucky7]

Maybe as a warning to anyone contemplating an abortion?

But, as it has been repeated numerous times, the woman was dead, so why not disregard sending that warning to others?

Honestly, part of me gets the idea that we disregard the rule since she was dead already. However, it also makes the warning of automatic excommmunication unclear and confusing to others. If the priest can always choose to override it, people think, “how serious can it really be”?. Where do we draw the line? Let’s say someone was excommunicated years ago and dies. Do we always give that person a Funeral Mass despite the fact that the person had years to repent and return to the Church? Are Funeral Masses the only way to pray for this person’s soul? I know Paul and NEP have talked about this a little bit, but they seem to have left the conversation. I am still questioning how we balance this.

So, when a politician such as Ted Kennedy promotes abortion for YEARS and then is given a Funeral Mass, what message does that send? If he repented, why wasn’t he (as a public figure) made to make it public as canon law also requires? If he didn’t, why couldn’t Church leaders have said something along the lines of “unfortunately we are unable to give Senator Kennedy a Funeral Mass due to his unwavering support of abortion which automatically excommunicated him from the life of the Church. However, we will pray for his soul”? That would show mercy, but it would also still send the message of the seriousness of supporting abortion until the day you die.

 

[PaulinVA]

I believe that NewEnglandPriest answered that for you already…did he not? What good comes from excommunicating some who is dead???

No, the person DIED while committing an act that incurs automatic excommunication. So, they were excommunicated the second the baby died, not when they died.

But, I’m not sure the timing is that important. The question that Lucky7 and I have is does the Church mean what she says, or does she provide so many loopholes and provisions for “pastoral care” that the clear black and white isn’t really clear?

So, contrasting two recent current event topics here - a priest in suburban Maryland denies communion to a lady who introduces herself at her mother’s funeral as an active lesbian with a “wife” and the priest is sanctioned. A woman kills her 33 week gestation baby, incurring automatic excommunication, and the Church publicly prays for her and gives her a Catholic burial.

As you can see, people can rightly become confused at these things.

 

[Lucky7]

So, contrasting two recent current event topics here - a** priest in suburban Maryland denies communion to a lady who introduces herself at her mother’s funeral as an active lesbian with a “wife” and the priest** is sanctioned. A woman kills her 33 week gestation baby, incurring automatic excommunication, and the Church publicly prays for her and gives her a Catholic burial.

As you can see, people can rightly become confused at these things.

Oh, yes. I had forgotten about that.

 

[Lucky7]

And does anyone know how we got on this topic? I can’t remember. LOL Because we have clearly veered off the OP topic.

 

[PaulinVA]

And does anyone know how we got on this topic? I can’t remember. LOL Because we have clearly veered off the OP topic.

To put us back on topic - I read a very interesting piece somewhere that basically said a quickly-convened conclave favors the Cardinals who are stationed in Rome in the Curia. Everyone knows them and visits with them when they visit Rome. The non-Roman Cardinals don’t know each other well and a longer period of pre-conclave meetings helps them to look at each other and non-Curia Cardinals perk towards the top of the list.

So, to look at Cardinal Dolan’s chances, or Sean O’Malley, look to when the conclave starts.

 

[maltmom]

To put us back on topic - I read a very interesting piece somewhere that basically said a quickly-convened conclave favors the Cardinals who are stationed in Rome in the Curia. Everyone knows them and visits with them when they visit Rome. The non-Roman Cardinals don’t know each other well and a longer period of pre-conclave meetings helps them to look at each other and non-Curia Cardinals perk towards the top of the list.

So, to look at Cardinal Dolan’s chances, or Sean O’Malley, look to when the conclave starts.

Good point. I hadn’t thought about it this way.

I would have thought that once he made the announcement that he was stepping down that they would use the two week notice to start the pre-conclave meetings. Is there a rule that they can’t do that until there isn’t a sitting Pope?

 

[Lucky7]

To put us back on topic - I read a very interesting piece somewhere that basically said a quickly-convened conclave favors the Cardinals who are stationed in Rome in the Curia. Everyone knows them and visits with them when they visit Rome. The non-Roman Cardinals don’t know each other well and a longer period of pre-conclave meetings helps them to look at each other and non-Curia Cardinals perk towards the top of the list.

So, to look at Cardinal Dolan’s chances, or Sean O’Malley, look to when the conclave starts.

Given they are just meeting to discuss the date on Monday, I don’t expect this to happen quickly. And as much as I want a Pope in place for Holy Week, I’d rather we take our time getting it right.

 

[jediliz]

Has anyone watched Card. Dolan’s shows on EWTN? His insight to the spiritual life is amazing, his delivery captivating, his insight penetrating & his love for Jesus & Mary engulfs him.

He isn’t afraid of anyone, except maybe Shirley Dolan, his mom!!! He seems comfortable in his own skin; seems to be his own man. He was voted president of US Cath Bishops conference last go round: USCCB which was unexpected.

We need in a new Pope a great people person, who has the smarts, humility, holiness, determination to forge ahead. Humor helps with a bumpy road.

Dolan keeps his eyes riveted to Jesus Christ. You can tell that. He just might be a long shot but so was Pope JP2.

That would be cool to have a Pope whose mother is still alive…but yes, it won’t happen…can you imagine all the haters (even MORE haters)? The types that thought that Kennedy would be answering to the Vatican when he was elected.

Maybe the Al Smith dinner should stop inviting the presidential candidates in an election year.

 

[JamesCaruso]

But, as it has been repeated numerous times, the woman was dead, so why not disregard sending that warning to others?

Honestly, part of me gets the idea that we disregard the rule since she was dead already. However, it also makes the warning of automatic excommmunication unclear and confusing to others. If the priest can always choose to override it, people think, “how serious can it really be”?. Where do we draw the line? Let’s say someone was excommunicated years ago and dies. Do we always give that person a Funeral Mass despite the fact that the person had years to repent and return to the Church? Are Funeral Masses the only way to pray for this person’s soul? I know Paul and NEP have talked about this a little bit, but they seem to have left the conversation. I am still questioning how we balance this.

So, when a politician such as Ted Kennedy promotes abortion for YEARS and then is given a Funeral Mass, what message does that send? If he repented, why wasn’t he (as a public figure) made to make it public as canon law also requires? If he didn’t, why couldn’t Church leaders have said something along the lines of “unfortunately we are unable to give Senator Kennedy a Funeral Mass due to his unwavering support of abortion which automatically excommunicated him from the life of the Church. However, we will pray for his soul”? That would show mercy, but it would also still send the message of the seriousness of supporting abortion until the day you die.

If a person knows that abortion is a grave offense against God, and if that person after giving sufficient reflection to what she is doing, decides to have an abortion anyway and dies in the doing so, then, all things being equal, that is, no last moment change of heart, no temporary insanity, no mitigating circumstances, and so forth, then the person is condemning themselves to hell, and yes, the Church is right in saying that their excommunication is automatic. But that’s a lot of ifs. That’s why it is all right for the priest to not assume eternal damnation in her case, or any case, for that matter. God is the final judge.

 

[Erich]

I would have thought that once he made the announcement that he was stepping down that they would use the two week notice to start the pre-conclave meetings. Is there a rule that they can’t do that until there isn’t a sitting Pope?

I suspect most of the rules assume that the period of “there isn’t a sitting Pope” begins when the previous sitting Pope has died. One doesn’t normally get a two week notice of the exact time of death

 

[Deerslyr]

I suspect most of the rules assume that the period of “there isn’t a sitting Pope” begins when the previous sitting Pope has died. One doesn’t normally get a two week notice of the exact time of death

I would also think the delay was out of respect for the remaining pontificate of Benedict XVI. Technically speaking, there was no Sede Vacante until 8:00 p.m. yesterday, thus no condition existed allowing the Cardinals to have pre-Conclave meetings.

 

[Jennifoo]

I’m going to defend Dolan here. The Holy Spirit worked through his ministries to bring me back to the Catholic Church. His work on the New Evangelism is real. So what if he has a sense of humor? This is the type of man who has the experience leading Catholics, rather than being an administrator. He has the acumen to draw Catholics back to the Church and move forward from there. If you somehow feel he is not conservative enough, I challenge you to demonstrate where he is “liberal”.

He is certainly being humble about it, but he is well poised to be an excellent pontiff. While I know the Holy Spirit will reveal a Pope is able to lead the Catholic Church in the right direction, I do say prayers that the Holy Spirit leads the Conclave to Dolan.

Excellent post. I honestly don’t understand why some CAF members think it’s okay to tear him to pieces. I could listen to Dolan for hours. I pray for him all the time and thank God for him.

 

[Jennifoo]

If you are referring to the Al Smith Dinner prior to the election, that is specifically a time when the church and candidates put aside their differences for one night to come together for a good cause. This has been the case every four years.

There is a time and a place for everything, the mark of a good statesman (yes, a Cardinal and a Pope are statesmen) is knowing when and how to engage those who oppose you. I believe Cardinal Dolan understands this quite well.

If this is your hangup, then you need to get over yourself and understand the history of the Al Smith event a lot better. Cardinal Dolan, after the event, went right back on the offensive on this matter.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

But, as it has been repeated numerous times, the woman was dead, so why not disregard sending that warning to others?

Honestly, part of me gets the idea that we disregard the rule since she was dead already. However, it also makes the warning of automatic excommmunication unclear and confusing to others. If the priest can always choose to override it, people think, “how serious can it really be”?. Where do we draw the line? Let’s say someone was excommunicated years ago and dies. Do we always give that person a Funeral Mass despite the fact that the person had years to repent and return to the Church? Are Funeral Masses the only way to pray for this person’s soul? I know Paul and NEP have talked about this a little bit, but they seem to have left the conversation. I am still questioning how we balance this.

So, when a politician such as Ted Kennedy promotes abortion for YEARS and then is given a Funeral Mass, what message does that send? If he repented, why wasn’t he (as a public figure) made to make it public as canon law also requires? If he didn’t, why couldn’t Church leaders have said something along the lines of “unfortunately we are unable to give Senator Kennedy a Funeral Mass due to his unwavering support of abortion which automatically excommunicated him from the life of the Church. However, we will pray for his soul”? That would show mercy, but it would also still send the message of the seriousness of supporting abortion until the day you die.

Perhaps because the view looks very different from a priest’s stand point then you or I’s. We always want rules to be followed…until it’s for us–then we want mercy.

The purpose of excommunication is the correction and redemption of the person who has chosen to separate himself or herself from the Church.

Now if someone has died while having an abortion…there is no point in excommunicating them is there? Because its about the correction AND redemption of THAT person…not others. Others have their own warning…and the Church to listen to…don’t they?

So…for excommunication to occur…for this women…which by the way excommunication does not happen for the dead…she would have had to been fully free, known it was a grave offense, known that she was excommunicated, and did it anyway. Can any of us say for certain the this occured? Also any priest would have had the right to remove the excommunication. Do you know everything about this case? No you do not.

In the case of Kennedy…I don’t read where it is a case of automatic excommunication. As you have to procure a completed abortion. Certainly his support of abortion was awful and I suspect he has his own penalties to pay for that in the next life…don’t you?

This all fits into the thread…as bottom line…the view for the next Pope will be different then for you and I. I read somewhere that Cardinal Ratiznger and a fellow priest used to talk about all the things they might change if they were Pope. When he became Pope, he was asked why he did not do all those things by his priest friend. He simply stated, “the view looks different from here.” So we may think people would not make a good pope or we want so and so to go in and clean house…but is that what we really need? Is that God’s will for us as a faith? I pray that the Holy Spirit helps to guide our cardinals to a new leader for us…a new shepard…who will bring about God’s will.

 

[Lucky7]

No, the person DIED while committing an act that incurs automatic excommunication. So, they were excommunicated the second the baby died, not when they died.

But, I’m not sure the timing is that important. The question that Lucky7 and I have is does the Church mean what she says, or does she provide so many loopholes and provisions for “pastoral care” that the clear black and white isn’t really clear?

So, contrasting two recent current event topics here - a priest in suburban Maryland denies communion to a lady who introduces herself at her mother’s funeral as an active lesbian with a “wife” and the priest is sanctioned. A woman kills her 33 week gestation baby, incurring automatic excommunication, and the Church publicly prays for her and gives her a Catholic burial.

As you can see, people can rightly become confused at these things.

Annabelle, you seem bent on responding (and finger wagging) only to my posts. What do you say to what Paul says in this post? Since I’m not the only one who thinks this way.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

Annabelle, you seem bent on responding (and finger wagging) only to my posts. What do you say to what Paul says in this post? Since I’m not the only one who thinks this way.

I don’t mean to be finger wagging at you per se…and I’m truly sorry if you took it that way. I work with a Catholics Can Come Home program and have seen so many Catholics truly hurt by someone throwing the rule book at them…many times unjustified. Not that this is why I think you are doing…I’m just trying to challenge you to move beyond the black/white view of things. Again…sorry if you think I’m finger wagging at you…it’s not my intent.

I for one view these as two seperate incidences…and I personally didn’t agree with the priest getting in trouble for withholding communion. But that is my personal opinion and I realize that just because this is all public does not mean that I know all the facts.

As for the lady in question…again we don’t know all the facts…do we. Any priest would have the ability to absolve her of her excommunication…if that in fact is what happened. There might have been multiple reasons for doing so-of which we would not (and should not) be privy to. Regardless…I assure that this lady does not get a totally free ticket in the next life…and I would not want to be her in this instance.

So, while it might seem on face value unjust–we can really never know for sure and should be concentrating on ourselves and our salvation.