Doug Batchelor: His Catholic Church Attacks

[BibleTruth]

Gabriel of 12;

Very good, your are familiar with the study of typology? Could it be that we are both right then? That the Blessed Virgin Mary gave birth to the Male Child Jesus, and in the next content the Woman (Bride of Christ) the Church who labors by Martyrs, sacrifices, Saints who suffer the persecution and wail aloud in pain as she (Church) labored to give birth to Jesus to all who would hear the Church?

Then Mary is the Woman assumed into heaven clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and on her head a crown of 12 stars. When Revelations is recorded, Mary has already been assumed into heaven both body and soul, John the revelator reveals this in Visions from God of Heaven, where John locates the “Ark of the Covenant” in heaven with the Woman “Virgin Mary” because the Church has not been taken up to heaven yet, until Jesus returns for his Bride.

Peace be with you

Hello Gabriel,

The major flaw that I believe exists in your interpretation is that Mary is not in heaven…she is in her grave, as special of a person as she was. No level of divinity was assigned to her in the Bible…that belief comes from pagan customs that were adopted into Catholic tradition. The Bible clearly states that when we die, we “sleep” until the coming of Christ in either the resurrection of the righteous or the resurrection of the unrighteous.

I’ve said some things in the past in this forum that have not gone over well and I don’t want to be disparaging. However history clearly records that the papacy martyred millions of people who only wanted to follow God’s word as it was written in the Bible. The Bible refers to these individuals as God’s saints and not those who are declared saints by men.

 

[BibleTruth]

Gabriel of 12;

So if we are to search the scriptures as the Bereans did, who is the one to confirm your interpretation is correct?

Jesus after his resurrection “revealed ALL the scriptures” to his disciples. The Catholic church has the interpretation of scriptures from Jesus and the Apostles. Where do SDA’s get their interpretations of scripture? after searching the scriptures?

Peace be with you

I believe the text you’re citing is Luke 24:27 where it states that “He explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself”. It’s interesting that they still didn’t believe that Jesus was the Messiah until He showed them that He was the fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy…that everything in the Old Testament pointed forward to Him so they could see that He was indeed the One they’d waited for. What’s interesting is how Christians today dismiss the Old Testament, suggesting that it’s no longer valid, where we can see clearly here that the Old Testament is how we know that Jesus was, in fact, the Messiah. The underlying message of the Old Testament is alive and well today, in Jesus Christ!

Seventh-day Adventists get their interpretation or understanding of the Bible from the Holy Spirit…the same Spirit Who influenced the minds of the Bible writers. The Holy Spirit is the One who guides us into all truth (John 16:13). We believe that God called Ellen G. White as a prophet in these end days to shed light on areas of the Bible that needed additional clarification however we measure her work the same way we do anyone’s…directly against the Word of God. I know and completely understand that the mere mentioning of her name throws people into a tailspin and incites all sorts of accusations. But please understand that our faith wasn’t founded on her work…it was founded on belief in Jesus Christ and His principles established in the Bible.

If you can tell me in all honesty that the Catholic church’s traditions can be measured against the Holy Bible and still stand, then I will never post on this forum again.

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

I see lots of traditions of men in the Catholic faith, things that are not important for making relationship with our Savior, things implemented by men not by God. For example , Rosary-where did that come from, who needs it, why would I need it, Is it important because the doctrine teachers say so? Repetitive prayers-why that?

Study the Bible for yourself and put to the test what anyone preaches including me and pray directly to Jesus for wisdom and open heart to understand what He tells you.

…if we are the ones who keep the commandments we are that church,that clean church without additions to it,without traditions,without rosary beads,without luxury,without idols and statues,without holy waters and other abominations of pagan origin.

Hi Andrea3710,

You certainly expressed a lot of thoughts in just a few posts! So much of what you said, I, being a former SDA, agreed with in the past. Obviously I don’t agree with all of what you said any more, but you did make some very good points about trusting in Jesus completely and fully as our only means of salvation…and I completely agree with you on that. And you may be surprised to find out that Catholics believe that too!

Many of the points you bring up, I’ve discussed in other threads on here and won’t go into them again. There is much misunderstanding and error in your beliefs about what the Catholic Church teaches, and if you are ever interested in finding out what the Catholic Church truely teaches, you will need to pursue that differently than you have in the past.

Yet one of the things you pointed out that came up more than once was the praying of the Rosary. While I understand that people have doctrinal differences for sincere and valid reasons…I find it very sad that you find, and declare, a person’s form of prayer an abomination of pagan origin. Prayer is such a persoanl expression of a person’s intimate relationship with God, and no one should put down another’s prayer life…even if they do not understand it.

In addition to my daily unstructured prayers and conversations with God, I also pray The Rosary…sometimes I even feel inspired and moved to pray it 2 or 3 times. It has been a blessing and one of the most powerful prayers I’ve prayed by which God sends His blessings of grace.

And it’s origin is not pagan. It begins with the Apostles’ Creed, which I think you would agree with. It contains The Lord’s Prayer, which Jesus taught us to pray in the Bible. And the Hail Mary prayer is taken right from the words of the Angel and Elizabeth in the Bible. The prayer is formed to lead the person praying in meditaion of the life of Jesus from His conception to His resurrection. And the most valuable form of the Rosary for me is the scriptural Rosary, where a scripture is read before the recitation of each Hail Mary. It is one of the most wonderful prayers and meditaions that I have ever prayed…and it based entirely on the Bible, most specifically The Gospels…it is in fact praying the Gospels.

Of course I do believe that the prayers…“Jesus help me”, “God help me”, “Thank you God”…or even a one word prayer, prayed in sincere faith, is more valuable than any large volume of prayers or beautifully worded prayers prayed without sincere faith.

I understand doctrinal differeces between people…But to criticize something as intimate and personal between someone and God seems a little devilish to me.

Here is a link to the scripural Rosary. Take a look at it and read it…it won’t bite you. Even take some time and meditate upon the scriptures and pray the Lord’s prayer. I can understand that you wouldn’t want to pray the Hail Mary, but take a look at it. It has been around for about 800 years I believe…longer than you, or me, or even the SDA church.

It is not as bad as you might believe it to be…in fact it has been one of the biggest blessings in my prayer life…because it is about Jesus and His life, death, and resurrection!

ainglkiss.com/ros/so.htm

God bless all!!!

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

It was necessary to include the entire chapter to cover the context of the point the vision was making, so thank you for bearing with me. In light of this passage, I think it speaks to your point of the differences in interpretations. I know that it may be frustrating to hear many variations of prophetic interpretations because, even though there are dual applications to many prophecies, not everyone can be right. The bottom line however is not understanding prophetic times and symbols…the bottom line is obedience to God. Satan’s objective is to distract our worship and our obedience to God because in doing so, he (Satan) receives it which he’s wanted all along. Obedience to God only happens through faith in and surrender to Jesus Christ, allowing Him to work within us. It’s not about legalism…it’s about our love for God (“If you love me, keep my commandments.” John 14:15). Through the power that comes only from Christ, we’re able to defeat Satan the same way Jesus did on the cross so long ago.

Hi Andrew,

I just want to thank you deeply from the bottom of my heart for your forthright, clear, honest, and intelligent presentation of these verses in your posts above!! Thank you!!! I really want to continue this discussion with you but do not have time this morning…so keep checking here and we will continue our discussion. You strike me as a true Christian gentleman and scholar.

I agree with many of your thoughts and of course disagree with some, but your tone and willingness to “put it all out there” make me, at least, very happy! And I completely agree with your quote above as to what is most important for us dispite our differences.

So I promise you, God willing, that I will be back to discuss this with you further!

God bless you!

If you can tell me in all honesty that the Catholic church’s traditions can be measured against the Holy Bible and still stand, then I will never post on this forum again.

I can tell you in all honesty that the Catholic Church’s traditions and scriptural teachings can indeed be measured against the Holy Bible and still stand.

BUT PLEASE DON’T LEAVE THE FORUM NOR STOP POSTING. STAY HERE AND KEEP POSTING!!!
God bless all!!!

 

[BibleTruth]

And it’s origin is not pagan. It begins with the Apostles’ Creed, which I think you would agree with.

Hey Patrick,

I know you didn’t address this to me but when I read it, I felt compelled to respond. Before doing so, I wanted to let you know I appreciate the kind words expressed in your response to my post on Revelation 12, but I can’t take the credit for my behavior or insight…I give all the glory to God. If it were not for Christ in my life, I would not have a desire to spread His gospel; in fact, there’s no telling what I would be doing with my life right now. I also want to add that although I believe that the system ran by the papacy is the first beast power of Revelation 13, I wouldn’t be surprised if the majority of the worshipers in that system, yourself included, are sincere believers in Jesus Christ. Only God knows how judgment will be rendered in the end, but whenever I try to think that He will only judge the sincerity of our hearts, I revert back to the passage of Matthew 7:21-23 where sincere Christians who called on Jesus’ name and did many things in His name were excluded from entering into His kingdom.

The key thing we have to realize is that Satan is crafty and it’s not beyond his modus operandi to set up a system of worship where people think they’re serving Christ, but in reality, they’re indirectly serving Satan. Recall in Matthew 4:9 that Satan wanted Christ to worship him. I continue to elude to this point because it is the reason he was expelled from heaven; he wants our worship because he wanted to be like God. It’s because of this that he’s created ways to make us think we’re worshiping God by instituting practices into Christianity that have their roots in paganism. Rosary beads are but one example of this “baptized paganism”.

Rosary beads were used by ancient Mexicans, the Brahmins of Hindustan and Tibetan priests of Tartary. They were also used in cults from Greece and Rome and were buried with the pharaohs of Egypt and used by pagan cults of the East. They’re also used by Moslems and Buddhists today. The point is, there is nothing Christian about them, but they’ve been subtly incorporated into Christianity through the Catholic church. But it doesn’t stop or start with Rosary beads. Christ taught us how to pray in Matthew 6:5-14. Notice in verse 7 that He says, “And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words”.

Following are but a handful more examples of pagan practices that have crept into Christianity through the same system: solar symbols (including blazes, discs and halos), eating the gods, nature gods (fauns or satyrs), the Crescent, December 25th (birth of Tammuz, the child of the sun god, Nimrod), Easter (Ishtar, the Fertility Goddess of Babylon hence the bunny and the eggs), Madonna and child, the lightning bolt, the Crosier, the Trident, Votive hands, the Fleur-de-lis, the Keys of Peter, the Pine Cone, the Fish-god, the Fish Mitre, the Sun-god (Nimrod)…which ultimately is why “the Church” instituted Sunday worship, the Solar Wheel (that is located in the court of St. Peter at the Vatican)…and the list goes on and on.

All of these emblems preceded Christianity but were incorporated long ago as part of an effort to ease rifts between pagans and Christians (and to affect control over those in the system). Paganism goes back to the tower of Babel, where on the plains of Shinar, the people began studying astrology and sought to “reach heaven” by doing so (i.e. become like God). This is why God confounded their speech and is the reason we’re to not buy into the nonsense of horoscopes and various forms of mythology and astrology. In fact, the astrological charts that were designed back then were based on the 7 planets that they knew about at the time and had a numbering system that, in every direction, totaled the number 666. This is the origin of this number and it’s what identifies this practice as devil worship. All of this was instituted by Satan and has lived on in one form or fashion throughout history to where we are now.

We do have to realize that the devil isn’t stupid and he knows the Bible better than we do. We know he wants God’s worship by studying the examples provided in the Bible. He wouldn’t just come on the scene after Christ’s death and declare, “I’m Satan, worship me”. Instead, he would go about it in a subtle manner to make people believe they’re worshiping God and the best way to do that would be to assimilate into Christianity. This is the meaning of the second half of Daniel 9:27 (as well as Daniel 11:31 & 12:11) and what Christ was referring to in Matthew 24:15.

So again, I’m sure you’re sincere in your worship of Christ, but these are real issues we have to consider and I’m certainly not here to judge you. I imagine that God will judge us by the light we’ve all received, but once being made aware of these things, we should question their origins and why they’re in the Christian church since they’re not in the Bible. Idolatry is explicitly banned throughout the Bible, but ask yourself why it’s not in the Catholic version of the Ten Commandments and why the tenth commandment was broken into two separate ones (remember that in Daniel 7:25, the little horn / Antichrist power would “think to change times and laws”). Saying they were instituted under the authority of tradition is exactly what Christ spoke out and warned against in Mark 7:9. If it’s not in the Word of God, it’s wrong…plain and simple.

We can be sincere in what we’re doing, but if it’s not right according to God’s Word, it’s sincerely wrong and nothing more. God bless you.

In Christ,

Andrew

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

The message gave birth to Christ (“the Word became flesh” - John 1:14) who was the fulfillment of the Old Covenant but where everyone in the OT failed, Christ prevailed. Christ came to defeat Satan, free us from sin and to vindicate God in the process. Our only chance of victory over sin is through an abiding relationship with Him; the good news is that it is possible. 1 John 3:4 gives us a clear definition of what sin is.

Aaron’s staff and a pot of manna was also in the ark. The staff was there to remind the rebellious Israelites to trust God. The interesting thing about the manna is that it was never fell on the Sabbath. They were to collect a double portion on Preparation Day (the 6th day) as test to see if they would follow God’s (eternal) instructions (Exodus 16:4-5).

Take it easy,

Andrew

Hi Andrew!

Yes there were three things contained in the Ark…Aaron’s staff (that put forth a living bud), the 10 Commandments, and manna.

I bring up the ark and its contents, since we are discussing the typology of the OT and its fulfillment in anti-type of the NT. In Rev. 11:15-18 John writes about the seventh trumpet being blown, and then goes on in Rev. 11:19 to describe what he sees when the temple in heaven is opened, and the great and wonderous sign that appeared in heaven.

It would seem that what John is seeing in heaven from Rev.11:19 through the beginning of Rev. 12 is related (I feel very safe to assume that you are aware that the chaper and verses divisions were not part of the original manuscripts of the scriptures).

**Rev. 11:19Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant. And there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and a great hailstorm.

Rev. 12:1A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. 3Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads. 4His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that he might devour her child the moment it was born. 5She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter. And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. 6The woman fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.**

May I ask you what your thoughts are regarding John seeing the Ark in heaven, particularly based on the typology of the Ark, and its contents, in the temple in the OT?

Thanks!

God bless all!!!

 

[BibleTruth]

Yes there were three things contained in the Ark…Aaron’s staff (that put forth a living bud), the 10 Commandments, and manna.

I bring up the ark and its contents, since we are discussing the typology of the OT and its fulfillment in anti-type of the NT. In Rev. 11:15-18 John writes about the seventh trumpet being blown, and then goes on in Rev. 11:19 to describe what he sees when the temple in heaven is opened, and the great and wonderous sign that appeared in heaven.

It would seem that what John is seeing in heaven from Rev.11:19 through the beginning of Rev. 12 is related (I feel very safe to assume that you are aware that the chaper and verses divisions were not part of the original manuscripts of the scriptures).

May I ask you what your thoughts are regarding John seeing the Ark in heaven, particularly based on the typology of the Ark, and its contents, in the temple in the OT?

Hey Patrick,

It was revealed to me that, in Revelation, a new prophetic vision was identified by words indicating it was “seen”. As you may already be well aware, the prophecies are not all in chronological order. This seems to be the case between the ending of what we call Revelation 11 and the beginning of Revelation 12 (your assumption is correct by the way).

The word “appeared” in Revelation 12:1 is the Greek word, “optanomai”, and is defined as “to look at, behold” or “to allow one’s self to be seen, to appear”. So my thoughts on what you’ve asked is that Revelation 12 is a new vision and not a continuation of Revelation 11.

Many Adventists who study/teach prophecy believe that Revelation 11:15-19 is a vision that starts in 1844 (when the cleansing of the heavenly sanctuary began). However, when I read and study it, I can’t help but think it’s a vision that starts at the Second Coming of Christ, includes the 1000 years in heaven and culminates with the judging of the dead (compare verse 18 with Revelation 20:12). I haven’t heard this same interpretation from anyone else and I understand there’s a chance that I could be wrong, but it’s something I’m still studying. It’s another example of one of those things that has less to do with our salvation (unlike the third angel’s message of Revelation 14:9-10 which has dire consquences) as much as it does a desire to understand prophecy. Revelation 1:3 says, “Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.”

The ark was made to hold the Testimony (the Ten Commandments). I believe John saw the ark in heaven to represent that God’s Law is eternal and will still exist after Jesus comes again. The manna and the staff served a specific purpose to future generations of Israelites, but are not listed at the time Deuteronomy 10:5 was written. If that doesn’t answer your question, please let me know. Thanks.

Take care,

Andrew

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

I know you didn’t address this to me but when I read it, I felt compelled to respond.

Rosary beads are but one example of this “baptized paganism”.

Idolatry is explicitly banned throughout the Bible, but ask yourself why it’s not in the Catholic version of the Ten Commandments and why the tenth commandment was broken into two separate ones (remember that in Daniel 7:25, the little horn / Antichrist power would “think to change times and laws”). Saying they were instituted under the authority of tradition is exactly what Christ spoke out and warned against in Mark 7:9. If it’s not in the Word of God, it’s wrong…plain and simple.

We can be sincere in what we’re doing, but if it’s not right according to God’s Word, it’s sincerely wrong and nothing more. God bless you.

In Christ,

Andrew

Hi Andrew!

Once again…WOW…you really pack a lot into one post! And I’m not quite sure that you are calling me a pagan, or simply that I’m deceived by the anti-christ (which is what I would have thought, when I was a SDA, of someone who was once a SDA but converted to Catholicism)…but you are so eloquent in your posts that I don’t feel the least bit offended by you…and maybe I should…but I don’t.

Perhaps it is because your presentation of your beliefs is very similar to the way I presented those same beliefs when I was a SDA. And once again I am in awe of your forthright honesty of your beliefs and opininions on this forum, when so many of the SDAs I’ve talked with on here are not. So once again thank you!! I am really enjoying talking with you…but I just never know where to begin in my responses.

Just a couple points however. The Catholic Church teaches against idolatry, horoscopes, communication with the dead, occult, etc. We’re all on the same page there!!

I’ve looked at the 10 Commandments in at least 3 different Catholic Bibles, and I assure you that there is no Catholic version of the 10 Commandments. They are the same in every Catholic Bible I’ve checked (in both Ex. and Deut.) as in the KJV, NIV, etc.

As for the Rosary beads…well…I’m not asking you to pick up any, but have you at least read (not prayed) the scriptural Rosary that I linked to above?

Also, I see in your profile that you live in Maryland…so do I. I would really love to get together with you for lunch or supper sometime!

Again…we disagree on a few things…but I sincerely appreciate your honesty!

God bless all!!!

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Hey Patrick,

It was revealed to me that, in Revelation, a new prophetic vision was identified by words indicating it was “seen”. As you may already be well aware, the prophecies are not all in chronological order. This seems to be the case between the ending of what we call Revelation 11 and the beginning of Revelation 12 (your assumption is correct by the way).

The word “appeared” in Revelation 12:1 is the Greek word, “optanomai”, and is defined as “to look at, behold” or “to allow one’s self to be seen, to appear”. So my thoughts on what you’ve asked is that Revelation 12 is a new vision and not a continuation of Revelation 11.

I hope this answers your question, but if not, please let me know.

On a side note, many Adventists who study/teach prophecy believe that Revelation 11:15-19 is a vision that starts in 1844 (when the cleansing of the heavenly sanctuary began). However, when I read and study it, I can’t help but think it’s a vision that starts at the Second Coming of Christ, includes the 1000 years in heaven and culminates with the judging of the dead (compare verse 18 with Revelation 20:12). I haven’t heard this same interpretation from anyone else and I understand there’s a chance that I could be wrong, but it’s something I’m still studying. It’s another example of one of those things that has less to do with our salvation (unlike the third angel’s message of Revelation 14:9-10 which has dire consquences) as much as it does a desire to understand prophecy. Revelation 1:3 says, “Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.”

Take care,

Andrew

Hi Andrew,

What are your thoughts about John seeing the Ark in heaven?

Thanks!

God bless all!!!

 

[BibleTruth]

Hi Andrew!

Once again…WOW…you really pack a lot into one post! And I’m not quite sure that you are calling me a pagan, or simply that I’m deceived by the anti-christ (which is what I would have thought, when I was a SDA, of someone who was once a SDA but converted to Catholicism)…but you are so eloquent in your posts that I don’t feel the least bit offended by you…and maybe I should…but I don’t.

Perhaps it is because your presentation of your beliefs is very similar to the way I presented those same beliefs when I was a SDA. And once again I am in awe of your forthright honesty of your beliefs and opininions on this forum, when so many of the SDAs I’ve talked with on here are not. So once again thank you!! I am really enjoying talking with you…but I just never know where to begin in my responses.

Just a couple points however. The Catholic Church teaches against idolatry, horoscopes, communication with the dead, occult, etc. We’re all on the same page there!!

I’ve looked at the 10 Commandments in at least 3 different Catholic Bibles, and I assure you that there is no Catholic version of the 10 Commandments. They are the same in every Catholic Bible I’ve checked (in both Ex. and Deut.) as in the KJV, NIV, etc.

As for the Rosary beads…well…I’m not asking you to pick up any, but have you at least read (not prayed) the scriptural Rosary that I linked to above?

Also, I see in your profile that you live in Maryland…so do I. I would really love to get together with you for lunch or supper sometime!

Again…we disagree on a few things…but I sincerely appreciate your honesty!

God bless all!!!

I would hope you’re not offended by anything I’ve written. It’s not my intent to be offensive or to remotely sound offensive…only to share what I believe is biblical truth in a loving way. In either case, please don’t take what I say to be offensive. All I’m stating is that the practices instituted by the papacy are of pagan origin. Of course, they’re not going to tell you that so you wouldn’t consider it to have anything to do with paganism. Without knowing you, I would think you’re a sincere Christian. Remember what I presented before in Revelation 18:4…God has His people in that system, but He’s calling them out before it’s too late.

I went to that site you posted and I don’t know how to respond except to ask what’s the purpose of saying “hail Mary”? She’s not divine, so why would anyone hail her? We should pray from our heart to God through Jesus.

Also, if you look at this link, you’ll see what I was referring to when talking about the Ten Commandments being changed: vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/command.htm. You’ll see here that the second commandment is omitted and the tenth is split into two. You’ll also see that the word “Sabbath” in the forth commandment is changed to “Lord’s Day”.

A few former Catholics (now Seventh-day Adventists) I know have told me that they were taught mainly from the Catechisms. I also read in the Catholic encyclopedia that “the Church” esteems traditions over Scripture. Is that the case now? Please let me know…thanks.

Where in MD do you live? I’m in Montgomery County.

Andrew

 

[BibleTruth]

Hi Andrew,

What are your thoughts about John seeing the Ark in heaven?

Thanks!

God bless all!!!

After realizing I hadn’t answered your question, I tried to edit my post, but I guess you caught it before I got the chance to finish. Below is what I added to the post:

“The ark was made to hold the Testimony (the Ten Commandments). I believe John saw the ark in heaven to represent that God’s Law is eternal and will still exist after Jesus comes again. The manna and the staff served a specific purpose to future generations of Israelites, but are not listed at the time Deuteronomy 10:5 was written. If that doesn’t answer your question, please let me know. Thanks.”

What are your thoughts on what you asked?

 

[happilycatholic]

Wow. There has been some serious interpretation of Revelation going on here. I’m looking forward to hearing what you have to say Patrick. As always, you are a charitible steward of the catholic faith and I for one value your (name removed by moderator)ut.

---

~HC

 

[djconklin]

They are the same in every Catholic Bible

Now compare them with the Hebrew, or in English: Young’s Literal Translation.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Hello Gabriel,

The major flaw that I believe exists in your interpretation is that Mary is not in heaven…she is in her grave, as special of a person as she was. No level of divinity was assigned to her in the Bible…that belief comes from pagan customs that were adopted into Catholic tradition. The Bible clearly states that when we die, we “sleep” until the coming of Christ in either the resurrection of the righteous or the resurrection of the unrighteous.

I’ve said some things in the past in this forum that have not gone over well and I don’t want to be disparaging. However history clearly records that the papacy martyred millions of people who only wanted to follow God’s word as it was written in the Bible. The Bible refers to these individuals as God’s saints and not those who are declared saints by men.

Gabriel of 12;

Interesting you should call not my interpretation of Mary, but all of 2000 years of Christian existance belief flawed? Your going up against some heavy weight bible theologians here; But then again, you dont know this because SDA’s did not get invented till the 18th century, and again SDA belief’s have changed since then.

So when the Divine Angel Gabriel addressed Mary as “Full of Grace” or as you may wish to prefer “Highly favored one of God”. So when God’s law states Honor your Mother and Father, Jesus did no such thing for his Mother Mary? And when God himself states in the Protoevangelium “I will put enmity between you (Satan) and the Woman’s Seed” meaning Mary and Jesus, Mary has no special attributes given her by God himself? If someone has decieved you in teaching you that Catholics believe Mary is a god, Someone has lied to you, because that is not Catholic teaching. I hope you dont continue on being decieved by such false teachings.

Thirdly; Your soul sleep new invention was never heard of in Christian teachings since the first century, until the adventist groups invented it as a christian belief of their own. Beside’s this is not a Gospel teaching of Jesus. I call your attention to the transfiguration; Jesus was seen by eyewitnesses conversing with Moses and Elijah, What? did these give birth to the Messiah so that dont get to soul sleep as you teach, yet the scriptures contradict this new teaching of yours.

The God I serve is the God of the living not the dead (soul sleepers) for God is the God of Isaac, Jacob, Moses etc. God could not be the God of these if they were as you believe dead. Maybe your Jesus does cannot raise the dead in Lazarous? yet the Jesus I believe in did raise the dead before he went to his passion.

As far as Mary being assumed into heaven, Did not God take up Elijah, did not God assume Enoch from this earth while alive? Why do you doubt what can do? If God chose to take on flesh and be born of a “Virgin”, die and resurrect for your and mine salvation, where is your faith?, that John saw Martyrs, Virgin men, Saints under the altar of God in heaven, these are not dead, but John testifies that they are alive and well praying on our behalf. Let no one decieve you anymore.

I have not been offended by your posts, so long “Truth” be spoken, and deceptions or misconceptions be corrected and addressed.

Peace be with you

Lets not be decieving in your attacks on the body of Jesus Christ. History records Apostles, disciples of the Apostles, successors to the Apostles in the Catholic bishops, and Popes died for the Apostolic Catholic faith since the first century after the resurrection. Your sources have decieved you again. What they falsely assuse of being Catholic, your sources are combining “caesaro-papism” which is the Pagan Roman Emperor, and confusing your Latin-Greek (language of ) history, and distort or a better term “Lie” to you of actual historical record and eyewitness accounts.

You have been exposed here. Please if your going to make up these large “Lying” accusations about the Catholic church, please provide your sources that the “papacy” killed millions of people?

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

I believe the text you’re citing is Luke 24:27 where it states that “He explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself”. It’s interesting that they still didn’t believe that Jesus was the Messiah until He showed them that He was the fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy…that everything in the Old Testament pointed forward to Him so they could see that He was indeed the One they’d waited for. What’s interesting is how Christians today dismiss the Old Testament, suggesting that it’s no longer valid, where we can see clearly here that the Old Testament is how we know that Jesus was, in fact, the Messiah. The underlying message of the Old Testament is alive and well today, in Jesus Christ!

Gabriel of 12;

Yes Jesus revealed all these sciptures to his disciples, in other words Jesus taught his disciples how to interpret the bible. What you missed in my above statement was the Catholic church gets her teachings from Jesus “AND HIS APOSTLES” meaning the New Testament interpretation as well. The Catholic church possess the full deposit of the Christian faith, from the Apostles Oral teachings, Sacred Scritpure (by apostolic letter) teachings, Sacred Apostolic Traditions handed down to the Catholic church because biblical, secular and religous history confirms the One Holy Catholic Apostolic church came from Jesus and his apostles.

Bible Truth;
Seventh-day Adventists get their interpretation or understanding of the Bible from the Holy Spirit…the same Spirit Who influenced the minds of the Bible writers. The Holy Spirit is the One who guides us into all truth (John 16:13). We believe that God called Ellen G. White as a prophet in these end days to shed light on areas of the Bible that needed additional clarification however we measure her work the same way we do anyone’s…directly against the Word of God. I know and completely understand that the mere mentioning of her name throws people into a tailspin and incites all sorts of accusations. But please understand that our faith wasn’t founded on her work…it was founded on belief in Jesus Christ and His principles established in the Bible.

Gabriel of 12;

I know you probably have a response for this; but here goes fact; If adventist groups get their interpretations or understanding of the bible directly from the Holy Spirit? Then why did not the World end when the adventist groups predicted and or prophecied that Jesus was coming on a certain date that never came? Is one to trust your interpretation, when the bible states to run from such false teachers as “Adventist Groups” who misinterpreted the bible for the second coming of Jesus Christ. Now in the 21st century, “Adventis” groups want another second chance of interpreting the bible and prophecies again? Never mind your femal founder “Ellen” I was more interested in the “Sailor” character who started the Seventh day Adventist Movement before Ellen did.

Bible Truth;
If you can tell me in all honesty that the Catholic church’s traditions can be measured against the Holy Bible and still stand, then I will never post on this forum again.

Gabriel of 12;

I would not want you to never post here on this forum, you are very welcome here to do so. I would be very happy to entertain you about Apostolic Traditions that the Catholic church follows, and can be revealed in Sacred Scripture to support such Apostolic Traditions handed down to the Catholic church. But you name the Apostolic Tradition and I will do my best to answer with sacred Scripture. Now dont confuse Apostolic Tradition with Church discipline. Such as Priestly “Celibacy” which is taught in the bible but this is taught as a Church discipline. Besides do you have “Celibate” Pastors as we Catholics have? I sure like learning from them, because they have not wife, or kids to look after Just the body of Jesus Christ his Catholic church he built upon Peter and the apostles.

Peace be with you

 

[BibleTruth]

You have been exposed here. Please if your going to make up these large “Lying” accusations about the Catholic church, please provide your sources that the “papacy” killed millions of people?

Gabriel of 12,

Just because millions of people have believed something for 2000 years doesn’t make it right. The Seventh-day Adventist faith wasn’t “invented”…it is the remnant of those who held onto original truth of God’s word. Recall from Revelation 12 that the “woman” was in the wilderness for 1260 prophetic days (1260 literal years), indicating that it would surface again after that time and keep God’s commandments amongst other things.

Genesis 3:15 states, “And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.” Please tell me where in this text that there’s any license to honor Mary in any way.

The Bible repeatedly refers to death as a sleep (as in the story of Lazarus you referenced in John 11:11-14). It also refers to the fact that the breath of God added to our bodies makes us a soul (Genesis 2:7). We don’t have a disembodied soul that continues on after we die. Believing that is believing what Satan said in Genesis 3:4 where Satan told Eve, “You will not surely die”. Ezekiel 18:4 says, “The soul who sins is the one who will die”. There is so much evidence to support this fact but I suspect that no matter how much biblical evidence I provide, you’ll still find fault with it (because it’s already there in the Bible and you don’t yet believe it). The understanding that when we die, we go to “sleep” until the resurrection, is one that was existent in the Old Testament (for example, see Job 14:11-15). Why would Paul write about the resurrection the way he does in 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thessalonians 4 if the dead weren’t “asleep” in their graves? With so many passages to this affect, the fact that you believe something else is just an indicator that you haven’t seen these truths for yourself…or you’ve chosen to ignore them. I’d encourage you to read/study these passages for yourself and not believe the traditions that have been handed down by uninspired (by the Holy Spirit at least) men.

Of course the disciples saw Elijah and Moses in the transfiguration. 2 Kings 2:11 records Elijah being carried up to heaven in a chariot. Genesis 5:24 tells us that Enoch went to heaven without him seeing death. Jude 1:9 talks about the dispute that took place between Satan and Michael over Moses’ body, so it’s no surprise that he was seen in the transfiguration. If you’ve studied Revelation, you’ll see that there were 24 elders in heaven before Jesus’ Second Coming. This would indicate that there were some humans in heaven (and more than the three I’ve highlighted) and when you look at Matthew 27:52-53 you can see that “many holy people” were resurrected when Jesus was resurrected. The point is that the vast majority of people who have ever lived are asleep right now, waiting for Jesus to come with His reward (or punishment). If you read Acts 2:29 & 34, you’ll see that this includes King David.

I could take the time to use the Bible and pick apart everything you’ve stated, but I’m not going to. I’ll just quickly address the “virgin men” you mentioned as I assume you’re talking about the 144,000 in Revelation 14:4. If you think this means men who are literal virgins then you’ve got a lot of studying/learning to do. This means that those who are included in this symbolic number are those who didn’t drink the wine of abominations/fornication (i.e. acceptance of the false doctrines) of the great prostitute of Revelation 17. Their experience will lead a “great multitude” to Christ as is seen in Revelation 7:9. I pray you’re a part of that great multitude who will some day accept God’s truth over man’s tradition.

Lastly, history is the source you’re looking for with respect to the Inquisitions of the Middle Ages where anyone who didn’t accept Catholicism and papal authority was accused of and convicted of heresy. Check the experience of the Waldensians or the Huguenots and see some examples of this for yourself. I’m not here to bash Catholics; I’m here to present the truth. I know it’s not comfortable to hear, but it doesn’t change the fact that it’s truth.

Andrew

 

[BibleTruth]

Gabriel of 12;

I would not want you to never post here on this forum, you are very welcome here to do so. I would be very happy to entertain you about Apostolic Traditions that the Catholic church follows, and can be revealed in Sacred Scripture to support such Apostolic Traditions handed down to the Catholic church. But you name the Apostolic Tradition and I will do my best to answer with sacred Scripture. Now dont confuse Apostolic Tradition with Church discipline. Such as Priestly “Celibacy” which is taught in the bible but this is taught as a Church discipline. Besides do you have “Celibate” Pastors as we Catholics have? I sure like learning from them, because they have not wife, or kids to look after Just the body of Jesus Christ his Catholic church he built upon Peter and the apostles.

Peace be with you

Your history of the Adventist church is not accurate. The Great Disappointment in 1844 was a misunderstanding of the Millerites, the followers of William Miller. He was not a Seventh-day Adventist but instead was a baptist. After the disappointment of 1844, people who were still faithful to Christ searched deeper into the Scriptures to realize that the 2300 prophetic day (literal year) prophecy of Daniel 8 didn’t speak to Jesus’ Second Coming but instead, referred to when the heavenly sanctuary would be cleansed…in other words, the anti-typical Day of Atonement. If you read Revelation 10, you can actually see how this bitter-sweet experience was prophesied about. Within this same prophecy is the 490-year prophecy of Daniel 9:24-27, so to dispute its relevance would be to dispute the arrival of the Messiah, which I don’t think you do. After all, you’re not Jewish, right?

From these events (in 1844) came the believers who ultimately formed the Seventh-day Adventist church in 1863. From what I’ve learned, they didn’t want to even have a formal name but had to do so in order to own property and so on. It would be difficult for you to learn this in Catholicism because, to my understanding, they don’t believe in the heavenly sanctuary (although it’s referenced in the Bible). They believe in an earthly priesthood where the Bible clearly states in Hebrews 8 that Jesus is now our High Priest and He is ministering on our behalf in the Most Holy Place of the heavenly sanctuary and has been doing so since 1844.

As I’ve stated in this forum before, God called Ellen White as a prophet to prepare God’s people for the end days. Prophets were removed from Christianity after the early Christian age because false teachers and prophets began corrupting the gospel and for centuries, the truth was suppressed (something the NT Bible writers said would happen after they departed the scene in the first century). The same thing happened to the ancient Israelites as can be seen in Jeremiah 7:23-29 among other places throughout the major prophetic books of Isaiah, Ezekiel and Jeremiah.

I don’t want to address your last comment because I’m not exactly sure that you meant to say some of the things that you wrote. In light of the unfortunate things done by Catholic priests to children, I don’t think bringing them into the discussion helps your argument in any way.

Thank you for the offer to teach me Catholic tradition, but I respectfully decline. Jesus warns us against following man’s traditions over God’s word.

Take care,

Andrew

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Just because millions of people have believed something for 2000 years doesn’t make it right. The Seventh-day Adventist faith wasn’t “invented”…it is the remnant of those who held onto original truth of God’s word. Recall from Revelation 12 that the “woman” was in the wilderness for 1260 prophetic days (1260 literal years), indicating that it would surface again after that time and keep God’s commandments amongst other things.

Gabriel of 12;
Here is the case; your soul sleep invention in Christian theology did not come around since your founders founded your mixture of Ancient Hebrew belief who did not have a revelation yet of after death in fact some Jewish Traditions today still dont have an understanding of the after life today as SDA’s dont, of which you subscribe to these ancient texts.

Please allow me to update you; Jesus came died and resurrected, revealed the Father, and gave us the Holy Spirit and revealed life after death “LITTERALLY”. Yes, I can use the ancient Hebrew text to prove that this revelation was not revealed yet to them, not to mention the Holy Spirit had not come either to which you claim to. You hold to this former knowledge, and reject the works of Jesus Christ, just as you subscribe to the sabbath law. If Moses was walking the earth today and saw how you honor the sabbath, he would be the first to spill your blood,( for Moses did not spare his own relatives), because you do not keep the sabbath law according to the scriptures you only claim to be doing so. Here is a news flash, Catholics are offering a daily sacrifice to God, every hour on the hour all over the world a fulfillment of the prophet Malachi, this would include your sabbath day also of which Catholics worship God including Saturday’s not conduct a bible study on a saturday

About your 1260 days appears to be adventist’s 20th century interpretation. The 1260 days in Revelation 12:6 is the time from the fall until the coming of the Messiah which would be a Half- time of Testing until Salvation comes, rather than a literal number of days which would have no meaning. This is a first century Jewish/Christian original interpretation of your 1260 days.

So you claim to be the orginal truth of God’s word? Funny, I dont recall Jesus building his church upon “Ellen White” in the Gospels or any Adventist Group? ( "Ellen White your founder or “Visionary” Paul predicted about these false prophets who will come) and Jesus did not give you his teachings personally as he did his apostles.

Bible Truth;
Genesis 3:15 states, “And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.” Please tell me where in this text that there’s any license to honor Mary in any way.

Gabriel of 12;
God himself honors Mary, for she is the new Eve who brings not death as the first Eve did but Life (Jesus Word of God made flesh) from her Virginity( Womb), for only the man carries the seed, but this Woman God speaks of carries her own seed, meaning she will be a Virgin. When God places “enmity” between Satan and the Woman bearing seed (Blessed Virgin Mary) meaning God has Graced Mary fully that Satan will not be able to taint her with sin. And in the original Hebrew text it has the Woman crushing the serpents head with her seed (Jesus). It is God who creates a Woman confirmed by Gabriel the angel as “Full of Grace” "Hailed as the favored one of God. We honor Mary because we are her offspring those who keep God’s commandments and bear witness to Jesus.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

cont’

Bible Truth;
The Bible repeatedly refers to death as a sleep (as in the story of Lazarus you referenced in John 11:11-14). It also refers to the fact that the breath of God added to our bodies makes us a soul (Genesis 2:7). We don’t have a disembodied soul that continues on after we die. Believing that is believing what Satan said in Genesis 3:4 where Satan told Eve, “You will not surely die”. Ezekiel 18:4 says, “The soul who sins is the one who will die”. There is so much evidence to support this fact but I suspect that no matter how much biblical evidence I provide, you’ll still find fault with it (because it’s already there in the Bible and you don’t yet believe it). The understanding that when we die, we go to “sleep” until the resurrection, is one that was existent in the Old Testament (for example, see Job 14:11-15). Why would Paul write about the resurrection the way he does in 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thessalonians 4 if the dead weren’t “asleep” in their graves? With so many passages to this affect, the fact that you believe something else is just an indicator that you haven’t seen these truths for yourself…or you’ve chosen to ignore them. I’d encourage you to read/study these passages for yourself and not believe the traditions that have been handed down by uninspired (by the Holy Spirit at least) men.

Gabriel of 12;
Look at the text you provide? your confusing Old testament thought with fulfillment in the New testament. Yes Jesus speaks of death as sleep in a temporary state, when Jesus died where did he goe to set the captives free? Was he their alarm clock from sleep death? no; he set the captives free and opened heavens gate for those who believed and obeyed God. This is New revelation from God that the old testament pointed to Jesus who would fulfill the Law and the Prophets. Tell me are these captives Jesus set free, still subject to the law of the Sabbath? Remember what Jesus said, If hold to the law and not him, then Moses will be your judge not the merciful Jesus. For Moses did not spare his own kinfolk.

Peace be with you

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Lastly, history is the source you’re looking for with respect to the Inquisitions of the Middle Ages where anyone who didn’t accept Catholicism and papal authority was accused of and convicted of heresy. Check the experience of the Waldensians or the Huguenots and see some examples of this for yourself. I’m not here to bash Catholics; I’m here to present the truth. I know it’s not comfortable to hear, but it doesn’t change the fact that it’s truth.

Andrew

Gabriel of 12;
The problem with your bias history only looks to attack the Catholic church. Lets clarify here; Yes the Waldensians teachings which were the first to introduce “Sola Scriptura”, basically interpreting sacred scripture by personal interpretation leading to many different heresies. Yes these were labeled by the Catholic church as heretical teachings.

Truth be told here, the Catholic church had no authority to excercise captial punishment on a soverign Kings subject. Here is the confusion of your bias history. The Catholic Kings or princess restored ordered not the Catholic church. When you view history, truthfully see without bias towards the Catholic church and see truthfully who is the one restoring order yes, these Kings or princess may have been Catholics, but they were not the Catholic church which is a common misunderstanding from bias historians.

True, the Catholic church had multiple inquisitions, these inquisitions were conducted for her own fold, and yes heretics were sought out, and if they did not recant, the authorites would execute them of her own fold of religous. Now yes there was some injustices, but the Pope put an end to these. That were done by religious quarrels, and Catholic Kings and landowners would take up the cause of the Church and execute their enemies. Each case needs to be looked at, to sum up millions killed by the papacy only reveals ones ignorance of recorded history, and appears to be repeating what someone incorrectly was informed of;

Peace be with you