Doug Batchelor: His Catholic Church Attacks

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The Sabbath vs Sunday worship thing can be wrapped up pretty easily. The vast majority of Christian churches recognize Sunday as the proper worship day for Christians. The SDA insisting on Saturday worship as the only right way reminds me of something my sainted mother once told me. She said “If ten men tell you you are drunk, you had better go lay down.” It’s time for the SDA to sleep it off!
If we go by the majority and since the majority of the Jews rejected Jesus as the messiah then you should to. Consult a Jew (according to HC–using the rule proposed by HC vs. actually checking Scripture.) to find out who is the Messiah. I don’t care what any church says, nor do I find the right by counting noses, or finding out which way the wind blows, I go by the Bible vs. traditions brought in by the pagans.
 
“We also say that of all Protestants, the Seventh-day Adventists are the only group that reason correctly and are consistent with their teachings. It is always somewhat laughable to see the Protestant Churches, in the pulpit and legislature, demand the observance of Sundays of which there is nothing in the Bible.” The Catholic Extension Magazine (Under the Blessing of Pope Pius XII) 1954
Very interesting quote; you can read it here: centrin.net.id/~rdpnet/index-13-sabbathacknow.htm. The history of the letter is interesting: the guy who asked the question was a Catholic:

“NOTE: Mr. James L. Day, while a member of the Catholic church, wrote to Pope Pius XI. The Papacy sent Mr. Day’s letter to Mr. Tramer, who was the editor of the “Question Box” section of The Catholic Extension Magazine. Mr. Day’s letter and Mr. Tramer’s reply are below. Mr. Tramer’s original letter is stored in the Seventh-day Adventist church’s vaults in Washington, D.C.”

Too bad more Catholics weren’t as well-informed and polite as Mr. Tramer–they could win more people to their cause.

"Notice this admission from the Saint Catherine Catholic Church Sentinel, May 21, 1995:

“Perhaps the boldest thing, the most revolutionary change the Church ever did, happened in the first century. The holy day, the Sabbath, was changed from Saturday to Sunday. ‘The Day of the Lord’ (dies domini) was chosen, not from any direction noted in the Scriptures, but from the Church’s sense of its own power . . . People who think that the Scriptures should be the sole authority, should logically . . . keep Saturday holy.” found online at ucg.org/issues/gn58/titan_bible.htm
 
Whose “rules” are those?

Um, God’s rules as given to Moses.
God gave Moses rules about not driving cars on the Sabbath? That’s news to me…my Bible must be outdated. Maybe it’s in the New and Improved International Version.
 
Christ “broke bread” (in terms of communion) for the first time on a Thursday but that doesn’t give Thursday any spiritual significance. Just so you’re aware, not every time you see the breaking of bread in the Bible does it mean having communion.

God didn’t intend on marriages ever ending, but it was allowed under certain circumstances. Read 1 Corinthians 7 or Matthew 5:31-32 for some insight.

You know, HC, you’ve had a lot to say to us non-Catholics about being mean-spirited, but from what I’ve witnesses here, most of it has come from you. You duck the deeper issues and take pop shots here and there when it’s convenient for you, even speaking negatively about Andrea, who stated that English is not her first language. You haven’t stated anything that can be supported biblically and completely ignore when folks use the Bible (or history for that matter) to refute whatever you’ve said.

You’ve got to be kidding me. What issue have I ducked? We’ve gone back and forth about everything you could think of to challenge a catholic on. What more do you want?

**Andrea has a way of insulting a person under the guise of not knowing the language. I simply don’t buy it. And you, dj, and andrea are the only ones who’ve mentioned satan on here and the whore of babylon and accused my Church of pagan worship. I, Patrick and the others here have done no such thing. **

**I do not ignore you when you use Scripture. I’ve used just as much as anyone. You simply refuse to address when I’ve used it. **

Such as the Scripture I used to explain to dj that not everyone who came into a person’s home was required to “become” a Jew and therefore not proof thta the Sabbath was meant for everyone. They were only required to observe the Sabbath, “become” a Jew. No one responded to that.

I also posted plenty of scripture when you erroneously posted Scripture to try and prove to me that Jesus rebuked believers who had not been baptized by immersion saying that he wouldn’t know them. When what he was saying is that if you don’t act like a Christian, he would not recognize you when the time comes. Which is exactly what you and dj were doing when you tell me my baptism is invalid.

But again, you didn’t respond.

But of all the things you can accuse me of, I have NEVER questioned your relationship with Christ.


**So say what you want. I’m catholic and I’ll die catholic. I would never be part of a church who gets their doctrine from some woman who claims to have visions. I don’t care how you or any other so-called Sabbath-keepers try to show me I’m wrong. **

The fact of the matter is you use Genesis for the beginning of the Sabbath when nowhere in Genesis is the Sabbath mentioned. You quote the Sabbath in Revelation as proof that we are to continue to keep the Sabbath, but nowhere in Revelation is the Sabbath mentioned. The Sabbath isn’t tied to the 7th day until Exodus. The Jews are not told to keep the Sabbath Holy until Exodus. Period. No gentile is ever told to keep the Sabbath holy in Scripture. You are good at saying “where is that in Scripture” until you can’t find it.

All the while you contend to keep the Sabbath when the very people for whom the Sabbath came about wouldn’t say you are “keeping the Sabbath”. You may observe the Sabbath - to a certain extent, but you DO NOT properly keep the Sabbath.


**I don’t need Scripture to tell me that. **

You keep mentioning Sunday and still haven’t responded to the claims of the Catholic church as being the body that attempted to change the observance of God’s holy day to Sunday. If it’s something I missed, maybe you can copy/paste it for me because I’ve searched and haven’t seen anything.

My Church worships everyday, but we keep the Lord’s Day holy. You know all the Scripture for that. It wouldn’t matter if I posted it. You’d still refuse to believe it. Just like the Isrealites. You are mirroring their disbelief and mistrust in God even today. You’re even trying to mirror their Sabbath and doing a poor job of it.

We were challenged to produce information that indicated that people worshiped on the true Sabbath through the 5th century and it’s been provided…without a response by you or “greggy”. Instead, you choose to zero-in on one line about baptism and ignore everything else. Why is that? We’re trying to have a meaningful discussion…maybe we can learn something we didn’t know…but you’re not holding up your end to support it.
Here’s your information:

90AD DIDACHE: “Christian Assembly on the Lord’s Day: 1. But every Lord’s day do ye gather yourselves together, and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure. 2. But let no one that is at variance with his fellow come together with you, until they be reconciled, that your sacrifice may not be profaned. 3. For this is that which was spoken by the Lord: In every place and time offer to me a pure sacrifice; for I am a great King, saith the Lord, and my name is wonderful among the nations.” (Didache: The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles, Chapter XIV)
100 AD BARNABAS “We keep the eighth day [Sunday] with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead” (The Epistle of Barnabas, 100 AD 15:6-8).
100 AD BARNABAS: Moreover God says to the Jews, ‘Your new moons and Sabbaths 1 cannot endure.’ You see how he says, ‘The present Sabbaths are not acceptable to me, but the Sabbath which I have made in which, when I have rested [heaven: Heb 4] from all things, I will make the beginning of the eighth day which is the beginning of another world.’ Wherefore we Christians keep the eighth day for joy, on which also Jesus arose from the dead and when he appeared ascended into heaven. (15:8f, The Epistle of Barnabas, 100 AD, Ante-Nicene Fathers , vol. 1, pg. 147)
 
God gave Moses rules about not driving cars on the Sabbath? That’s news to me…my Bible must be outdated. Maybe it’s in the New and Improved International Version.
It’s in the really, really fine-print.
 
This is funny…

There is so much information on Christians worshipping on Sunday that I can’t post it all!

Seriously, I can only post 7000 characters at a time and I tried. To post all the 1st century information AND all the modern information would take numberous posts. So just suffice it to say:

Christians have documented Sunday worship since 70 A.D. and we’re still doing it today!

🙂
 
God gave Moses rules about not driving cars on the Sabbath? That’s news to me…my Bible must be outdated. Maybe it’s in the New and Improved International Version.
Either you’re being funny or ignorant, which is it?
 
happilycatholic;5014061:
That much is clear.

My duty as a disciple of Christ is to share His gospel. The Holy Spirit is the one who does the convicting of people’s hearts. I trust that you realize that refusing the call of the Holy Spirit is the unpardonable sin.

You may not like me, the way I write or some of the things that I’ve said, but the truth is in God’s word. If you reject anything that I’ve said that comes directly from the Bible
, you’re not rejecting me, you’re rejecting the word of God.

Andrew

No what you are a part of is a tree with bad fruit.
 
Here’s your information:
90AD DIDACHE: “Christian Assembly on the Lord’s Day: 1. But every Lord’s day do ye gather yourselves together, and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure. 2. But let no one that is at variance with his fellow come together with you, until they be reconciled, that your sacrifice may not be profaned. 3. For this is that which was spoken by the Lord: In every place and time offer to me a pure sacrifice; for I am a great King, saith the Lord, and my name is wonderful among the nations.” (Didache: The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles, Chapter XIV)
While some date this text as early as 60-130 AD it is often now seen to be a document from the early second century. There are no clear references to events that can be dated. Instead the information that it is dated by is the doctrine etc. The doctrine of the Didache seems to be less developed than some later texts in regards to church structure, etc. compared to Ignatius, which either favors an earlier date, or a different location. However, it also makes reference to some material that is regarded as later. Here is a discussion of the later date:

ccel.org/ccel/richardson/…html#viii.i.i
Since some see in it quotes from the Epistle of Barnabas and the Shepherd of Hermas they assign it to the second century.

14:1 But on the Lord’s day, after that ye have assembled together, break bread and give thanks, having in addition confessed your sins, that your sacrifice may be pure. But let not any one who hath a quarrel with his companion join with you, until they be reconciled, that your sacrifice may not be polluted, for it is that which is spoken of by the Lord. In every place and time offer unto me a pure sacrifice, for I am a great King, saith the Lord, and my name is wonderful among the Gentiles.

It says to assemble on the Lord’s Day. This is possibly the earliest reference to the Lord’s Day outside of Scripture. If you take the second century date then Ignatius’ letter to the Magnesians would come before it. It does not, as some later texts do, mention anything about a replacement of Sabbath with Sunday.

But here, as with Ignatius, there is also a translation issue. Here is the Greek text:

ccel.org/l/lake/fathers/didache.htm

The beginning of chapter 14 is the text in question. Notice that the reading is Kata Kuriakhn de kuriou.

This is the part rendered “but on the Lord’s day”, but again hmera does not occur. Nor in fact is it just left out, assumed to be substantival. Instead it literally says “but/and according to the Lord’s (missing or assumed word) of the Lord” This is, to say the least an obscure phrase. Here is a discussion of the texts in the B-Greek list that speaks about the issue:

He is quoting the Lord in his statement about leaving your sacrifice at the altar and going to be reconciled with your brother before worship. So perhaps the word is something related to the teaching or command of the Lord.

In any case it is not clear what is meant, nor does it associate the Lord’s Day with any calendar day. Some think it could be a reference to Pascha.
100 AD BARNABAS “We keep the eighth day [Sunday] with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead” (The Epistle of Barnabas, 100 AD 15:6-8).
100 AD BARNABAS: Moreover God says to the Jews, ‘Your new moons and Sabbaths 1 cannot endure.’ You see how he says, ‘The present Sabbaths are not acceptable to me, but the Sabbath which I have made in which, when I have rested [heaven: Heb 4] from all things, I will make the beginning of the eighth day which is the beginning of another world.’ Wherefore we Christians keep the eighth day for joy, on which also Jesus arose from the dead and when he appeared ascended into heaven. (15:8f, The Epistle of Barnabas, 100 AD, Ante-Nicene Fathers , vol. 1, pg. 147)
"The Epistle of Barnabas, also known as Pseudo-Barnabas, is a Christian work of the late first or early second century, written to dissuade its readers from being influenced by Christian Judaism or even to consider the Jews as sharing in God’s covenant. It was written in Greek and currently contains 21 brief chapters, preserved complete in the fourth-century Codex Sinaiticus where it appears at the end of the New Testament.

The epistle goes farther in its anti-Jewish stance than earlier Christian works, by arguing that God’s covenant with Abraham and Moses was never established with the Jewish people as a whole, due to their sins. It was ultimately omitted from the New Testament canon, although and it was cited by several early Church Fathers as having scriptural authority. Today, it is included in most collections of the Apostolic Fathers."


“Internal evidence suggests that Barnabas was written after the destruction of the Temple of Jerusalem in 70 C.E. and before the Bar Kochba Revolt of 132 C.E. …”

“Although the work is not Gnostic in a heterodox sense, the author intends to impart to his readers the type of perfect gnosis (special knowledge). His concern is that his audience must realize that the Christians, rather than Jews, are the only true people of God’s covenant. Like the author of the Epistle to the Hebrews, “Barnabas” holds that the Jewish scriptures served to foreshadow Jesus and Christianity. He goes well beyond Hebrews, however, by arguing not that the God’s covenant with the Jews has been transferred to the Christians, but that the Jewish people had never actually established a covenant with God. He asserts that their sin of turning to the Golden Calf at Sinai blocked them from entering into the covenant with God and that thereafter they completely misunderstood the true meaning of the Mosaic Law. The promises of the covenant, he maintains, therefore belong only to the Christians (e.g. 4:6-8). The practice of circumcision and the entire Jewish sacrificial and ceremonial system are due to misunderstanding, as they were meant to be interpreted allegorically (chapters 9-10).”

found at newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Epistle_of_Barnabas

Whenever you see a single date being ascribed to a work from that long ago that is your first clue that something is wrong.

Thanks for the mis-information; I’ll stick with the Bible.
 
Christians have documented Sunday worship since 70 A.D. and we’re still doing it today!
Actually, most Christians as late as the 5th century kept the Sabbath.

“The people of Constantinople, and almost everywhere, assemble together on the Sabbath, as well as on the first day of the week, which custom is never observed at Rome or at Alexandria. There are several cities and villages in Egypt where, contrary to the usage established elsewhere, the people meet together on Sabbath evenings, and, although they have dined previously, partake of the mysteries.” Salaminius Hermias
Sozomen, Ecclesiastical History, Chapter XIX at ntslibrary.com/PDF%20Books/Socrates%20and%20Sozomenus%20Ecclesiastical%20Histories.pdf – page 592

Socrates Scholasticus:

“For although almost all churches throughout the world celebrate the sacred mysteries on the sabbath of every week, yet the Christians of Alexandria and at Rome, on account of some ancient tradition, have ceased to do this.” Ecclesiastical History, Book 5, chapter 22 found @ ntslibrary.com/PDF%20Books/Socrates%20and%20Sozomenus%20Ecclesiastical%20Histories.pdf – page 244

See also the histories of Ireland and Ethiopia which kept the seventh-day Sabbath till much later than that.
 
Originally Posted by BibleTruth
God gave Moses rules about not driving cars on the Sabbath? That’s news to me…my Bible must be outdated. Maybe it’s in the New and Improved International Version.
Either you’re being funny or ignorant, which is it?

That would be facetious. Walked yourself right into it.
 
If we go by the majority and since the majority of the Jews rejected Jesus as the messiah then you should to. Consult a Jew (according to HC–using the rule proposed by HC vs. actually checking Scripture.) to find out who is the Messiah. I don’t care what any church says, nor do I find the right by counting noses, or finding out which way the wind blows, I go by the Bible vs. traditions brought in by the pagans.
You won’t follow Sacred Tradition passed on by Christ himself, but you’ll tag right along behind the likes of Ellen White. Awesome.

By the way, you do recognize that Jesus died a Jew right? Is there something in your fundemental beliefs that says you have to have such disdain for God’s chosen people or do you just practice that on your own?
 
The fact of the matter is you use Genesis for the beginning of the Sabbath when nowhere in Genesis is the Sabbath mentioned. You quote the Sabbath in Revelation as proof that we are to continue to keep the Sabbath, but nowhere in Revelation is the Sabbath mentioned. The Sabbath isn’t tied to the 7th day until Exodus. The Jews are not told to keep the Sabbath Holy until Exodus. Period. No gentile is ever told to keep the Sabbath holy in Scripture. You are good at saying “where is that in Scripture” until you can’t find it.
Relax…take a few breaths. Let’s take these one at a time…

Genesis 2:2-3: “By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.”

Is this a different seventh day than the one we know today as the Sabbath?

Look at the language in Genesis 2:2-3, combined with Exodus 20:11 and Revelation 14:7.

Exodus 20:11: “For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.”

Revelation 14:7: “He said in a loud voice, ‘Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water.’”

Do you see any similarities?

You keep going back to our friends, the Jews. When I talked about laboring in vain, this was the point…you’re missing the point! We are all spiritual Israelites; there are no more Jews or Gentiles as far as Christ is concerned. That seems to be the barrier that’s preventing your vision from being cleared. There are only those who accept Him in spirit and in truth and those that don’t.
 
Either you’re being funny or ignorant, which is it?
It was a feeble attempt at humor. 🙂

The point you’re missing is that Jesus rebuked the Pharisees for legalizing the Sabbath, which was not the original intent. It’s a day to delight in the Lord…to cast aside the world and focus solely on God. The Pharisees made it more miserable than anything else and that’s what Jesus was correcting them on.
 
Relax…take a few breaths. Let’s take these one at a time…

Genesis 2:2-3: “By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.”

Is this a different seventh day than the one we know today as the Sabbath?

Look at the language in Genesis 2:2-3, combined with Exodus 20:11 and Revelation 14:7.

Exodus 20:11: “For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.”

Revelation 14:7: “He said in a loud voice, ‘Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water.’”

Do you see any similarities?

**Similarities don’t seem to get it when we speak of the Lord’s Day, the First Day or the breaking of bread. So let’s not apply them here, k? Show me “Sabbath” in Genesis. **

You keep going back to our friends, the Jews. When I talked about laboring in vain, this was the point…you’re missing the point! We are all spiritual Israelites; there are no more Jews or Gentiles as far as Christ is concerned. That seems to be the barrier that’s preventing your vision from being cleared. There are only those who accept Him in spirit and in truth and those that don’t.
To coin a term: “Where’s that in Scripture”? “Where’s the proof of that in Scripture”? Where does it say in Scripture that there are no more Jews??? As long as Jews practice their faith as Jews, there will be Jews. Gosh someone needs to tell the rest of the world your revelation that there are no more Jews.
 
Here’s your information:

100 AD BARNABAS: Moreover God says to the Jews, ‘Your new moons and Sabbaths 1 cannot endure.’ You see how he says, ‘The present Sabbaths are not acceptable to me, but the Sabbath which I have made in which, when I have rested [heaven: Heb 4] from all things, I will make the beginning of the eighth day which is the beginning of another world.’ Wherefore we Christians keep the eighth day for joy, on which also Jesus arose from the dead and when he appeared ascended into heaven. (15:8f, The Epistle of Barnabas, 100 AD, Ante-Nicene Fathers , vol. 1, pg. 147)
This book is not in the Bible. Even learned Catholics admit they don’t know who wrote it. Chances are high that this is not the Barnabas that we find preaching with Paul on the Sabbath in the book of Acts (chapter 14).
 
**Similarities don’t seem to get it when we speak of the Lord’s Day, the First Day or the breaking of bread. So let’s not apply them here, k? Show me “Sabbath” in Genesis.

To coin a term: “Where’s that in Scripture”? “Where’s the proof of that in Scripture”? Where does it say in Scripture that there are no more Jews??? As long as Jews practice their faith as Jews, there will be Jews. Gosh someone needs to tell the rest of the world your revelation that there are no more Jews.**
Acts 27:34-35 (NIV): “‘Now I urge you to take some food. You need it to survive. Not one of you will lose a single hair from his head.’” After he said this, he took some bread and gave thanks to God in front of them all. Then he broke it and began to eat." This passage is not talking about communion…it’s talking about eating a meal.

Lamentations 4:4 (KJV): “The tongue of the sucking child cleaveth to the roof of his mouth for thirst: the young children ask bread, and no man breaketh it unto them.” * This verse is not talking about communion.
*
Acts 2:46 (NKJV): So continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they ate their food with gladness and simplicity of heart. * This verse is not talking about communion.*

As far as a Bible verse about Jews and Gentiles: There is no longer Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male and female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus. And now that you belong to Christ, you are the true children of Abraham. You are his heirs, and God’s promise to Abraham belongs to you" (Galatians 3:28-29, NLT).

Are these verses enough or do you still need to see the word “Sabbath” in Genesis to realize it’s the same day as is referenced in Exodus 20:11?
 
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