Drinking alcolhol

[Poisson]

JesusIsTheWay:

Now when Jesus turned water into wine, the wine that was used back in the day was not fermented and had very few if any alcoholic properties…

How did they stop the fermentation process. Today we use chemicals (potassium metabisulphate usually) to kill off any naturally occuring yeasts and bacteria then pasturize it with heat and seal it. I don’t think they had these processes back then. It could not have been fresh at the last supper because passover was well beyond the harvest season. I’d like to know how they did it because I used to make wine and if I wasn’t very careful about keeping out airborne bacteria and yeasts during the fermentation process the whole batch of juice would teast like… well lets just say you wouldn’t want to drink it. After the sugars ferment to alcohol it’s not problem the alcohol preserves it. So how in the world did they preserve it back then???

 

[threej_lc]

Bengal_Fan-

I did not mean to imply dance was not a valid form of worship. It is a wonderful form of worship, and one I practice myself and with those close to me.

But because this is not the case to 99% of people at mass, who interpret it another way, or at best are just “weirded out” by it, and is thus inappropriate for that forum.

Similarly, Melchoir, I am not speaking against you having alcohal with your family at dinner. If that is a way that your family privately shares community with eachother, praise be to God.

But when someone decides, “Its Friday night. I’m gonna go out and go drinking tonight.” Or, “My friend and I had nothing to do, so we drank some.” Even in moderation, this is not being used for a holy purpose, but rather just for self indulgement. And I think what would otherwise be a neutral act becomes tainted by the example we are setting for society.

 

[bengal_fan]

threej_lc:

Bengal_Fan-

I did not mean to imply dance was not a valid form of worship. It is a wonderful form of worship, and one I practice myself and with those close to me.

But because this is not the case to 99% of people at mass, who interpret it another way, or at best are just “weirded out” by it, and is thus inappropriate for that forum.

Similarly, Melchoir, I am not speaking against you having alcohal with your family at dinner. If that is a way that your family privately shares community with eachother, praise be to God.

But when someone decides, “Its Friday night. I’m gonna go out and go drinking tonight.” Or, “My friend and I had nothing to do, so we drank some.” Even in moderation, this is not being used for a holy purpose, but rather just for self indulgement. And I think what would otherwise be a neutral act becomes tainted by the example we are setting for society.

i guess i still have to disagree. even if those people are “weirded out” by the dance doesn’t mean we should get rid of it. many people entering the early church were “weirded out” (i am not making fun of your words here) by consuming the flesh and blood of Christ. when david danced unto the Lord, many were offended and accused him of being drunk and crazy, but he did the right thing. are these people going to be weirded out in heaven when we are all dancing?

the other issue (drinking which is the issue of this thread and i’m sorry i digressed so much) that it can be a holy purpose to go and have a drink with a friend or even a few friends, or a bar full of friends. fellowship is a holy purpose. when we do it right we are setting a great example for society and showing them where they are doing it wrong.

 

[Ham1]

Poisson:

How did they stop the fermentation process. Today we use chemicals (potassium metabisulphate usually) to kill off any naturally occuring yeasts and bacteria then pasturize it with heat and seal it. I don’t think they had these processes back then. It could not have been fresh at the last supper because passover was well beyond the harvest season. I’d like to know how they did it because I used to make wine and if I wasn’t very careful about keeping out airborne bacteria and yeasts during the fermentation process the whole batch of juice would teast like… well lets just say you wouldn’t want to drink it. After the sugars ferment to alcohol it’s not problem the alcohol preserves it. So how in the world did they preserve it back then???

Wine should not be pasteurized. Or at least not good wine. Doing such a thing would give it cooked and off-flavors.

I thought that the fermentations stops because the yeast is rendered inactive by the level of alcohol. This is why yeasts used in beer and ale will stop fermenting somewhere around 6-7% whereas a yeast used in wine might stop fermenting around 18%. I read somewhere that barrels were sterilized in Roman times with sulfur candles which would kill off harmful bacteria. I am pretty sure this accomplishes similar things to the modern addition of sulphates. I am sure that wine made back then was very inconsistent.

OOPS

I almost forgot. I for one thinking drinking alcohol is wonderful. I come from a big very Catholic family and we pride ourselves on throwing some of the greatest parties. Sure, sometimes someone will go a little overboard, but with experience you learn. I have often heard this quotation attributed to St. Thomas Aquinas: Drink to the point of hilarity.

Those of us in the USA would do well to adopt a much more european style of eating and drinking.

 

[threej_lc]

bengal_fan:

i guess i still have to disagree. even if those people are “weirded out” by the dance doesn’t mean we should get rid of it. many people entering the early church were “weirded out” (i am not making fun of your words here) by consuming the flesh and blood of Christ. when david danced unto the Lord, many were offended and accused him of being drunk and crazy, but he did the right thing. are these people going to be weirded out in heaven when we are all dancing?

Hmmm… good answer. I’ll think about it.

Josh

 

[Poisson]

Ham1:

Wine should not be pasteurized. Or at least not good wine. Doing such a thing would give it cooked and off-flavors.

I thought that the fermentations stops because the yeast is rendered inactive by the level of alcohol. This is why yeasts used in beer and ale will stop fermenting somewhere around 6-7% whereas a yeast used in wine might stop fermenting around 18%. I read somewhere that barrels were sterilized in Roman times with sulfur candles which would kill off harmful bacteria. I am pretty sure this accomplishes similar things to the modern addition of sulphates. I am sure that wine made back then was very inconsistent.

I was referring to preventing the juice from fermenting and turning it to wine. I am pretty sure that preserved grape juice goes through a heating process, most canned foods do. This would have been impossible 2000 years ago. You are correct the greater the sugars the higher the alcohol and fermentation stop either when the sugar runs out or when the level of alcohol rises to the point that the alcohol kills off the yeast which depends on the type of yeast used. The sulfur kills off any bacteria and wild yeasts (not all yeast makes good wine) which may be in the barrel or on the grapes prior to picking and the wines were very inconsistent becasue of the airborn contaminants.

 

[Peace-bwu]

Several members have cited great Bible verses on this issue.
I would like to add a few more Scripture passages regarding alcohol use.

Matt 11:19 (Jesus Praises John the Baptist, read all for full context people criticized Jesus for eating a drinking wine, and John TB for not doing so.) the Son of Man came eating and drinking and they say , “Look, a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!” Yet wisdom is vindicated by their deeds.

**Luke 10:34 **(Parable of the Good Samatin - medicinal uses of wine ) *He went to him and bandaged his wounds, having poured oil and wine on them. *

**1 Tim. 5:23 *(Paul advised Timothy to use wine to ease his stomach ailments) No longer drink only water, but take a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments. *

1 Tim 3:8 (Qualifications for Deacons- mentions overindulging in wine, it does not say they should avoid wine completely.) Deacons likewise must be serious, not double-tongued, not indulging in much wine, not greedy for money;

I think we all know the Wedding at Cana, **John 2:1-11 **read it, but in particular notice the verse which says *" Everyone serves the good wine first, and then the inferior wine after the guests have become drunk. But you have kept the good wine until now. *
**Notice, Jesus didn’t change water into ordinary “cheap” wine, he went “all out” for the good stuff! It was the good wine normally served first so that the guests will become drunk and not notice when they start serving the cheap, inferior stuff! If drinking in wine, itself had been wrong and sinful, Jesus surely would have made the best Grape Juice ever made, far surpassing Welche’s. **

What does the Catholic Catechism Say?
CCC2290 The virtue of temperance disposes us to avoid every kind of excess: the abuse of food, alcohol, tobacco, or medicine. Those incur grave guilt who, by drunkenness or a love of speed, endanger their own and others’ safety on the road, at sea, or in the air.

I say… If drinking alcohol has become a vice causing sin, and is affecting relationships, endangering safety, it needs to be given up, otherwise used in moderation. Drunkennness to the point of a person losing their faculties is sinfull because they are unable to use their moral scruples and can be taken advantage of by evildoesr or commit sin. I drink alcohol in moderation and being a small gal, I stay under two drinks with a special dinner, occasionally I have a few TBs of Baileys in my coffee, or a margaritta with friends. I don’t become drunk because I avoid sin.

 

[Peace-bwu]

JesusIsTheWay:

Yes there are clear cut lines:

Now when Jesus turned water into wine, the wine that was used back in the day was not fermented and had very few if any alcoholic properties… it was for ceremonial purposes… not the wine that was in the bars…

I think we all know the Wedding at Cana, **John 2:1-11 **please, read it again for yourself, but in particular notice the verse which says *" Everyone serves the good wine first, and then the inferior wine after the guests have become drunk. But you have kept the good wine until now. *

**Notice, Jesus didn’t change water into ordinary “cheap” wine, he went “all out” for the good stuff! It was the good wine normally served first so that the guests will become drunk and not notice when they start serving the cheap, inferior stuff! If drinking wine itself had been wrong and sinful, Jesus surely would have made the best Grape Juice ever made, far surpassing Welche’s. **

 

[martino]

Melchior:

What is the precise portion size for each meal you eat since there is no specific PS is the bible? Should you not eat to avoid the posiibility of gluttony?

Mel

I like that!! I was sorta thinking the same thing, you must be quicker than me!

 

[bengal_fan]

Ham1:

I almost forgot. **I for one thinking drinking alcohol is wonderful. ** I come from a big very Catholic family and we pride ourselves on throwing some of the greatest parties. Sure, sometimes someone will go a little overboard, but with experience you learn. I have often heard this quotation attributed to St. Thomas Aquinas: Drink to the point of hilarity.
.

in a very heterosexual way…i love you. alcohol can be a wonderful thing, it does promote brotherhood and it is a very bonding thing to “have a beer” with some one. wine adds so much flavor to everything. hard liquor has medicinal value and is quite tasty (depending on your tastes). it’s interesting how in europe there is far less instances of drunkeness and obesity. this is not an argument to legalize all drugs as they have in holland but people don’t binge drink in europe as they do here and i wonder if that is because of their relaxed attitude (and maybe even biblical attitude) toward it. hard drugs can be instantly addictive which we know is wrong (good argument against tobacco and it’s addictive quality) and marijuana can and does cause damage even when used “recreationally” while alcohol can be healthy for you and when used in moderation is not bad for you.

 

[Melchior]

martino:

I like that!! I was sorta thinking the same thing, you must be quicker than me!

Naaaaw! I doubt I am quicker. Being the geek that I am I just kept the window to this thread open.

Plus, I also think about eating and drinking quite often… which can’t be good.

Mel

 

[Peace-bwu]

Everyone should have a nice glass of good red wine tonight and make a toast to Jesus! :clapping: :bowdown:
(Don’t drink the inferior stuff, ya hear?)
I would live in a vinyard if I could. I just love all the vinyard imagery used in Scripture.

 

[Faithful_2_Rome]

Gee whiz…nothing is said about BEER or VODKA in the bible…what to do??? But guess what…I drink that as well and have NO REMORSE for it.

A drunkard cannot be classified as one who got drunk once or twice out of X amount of times…a drunkard is an alcoholic…a drunkard is one who drinks to the point of lowered inhibitions to the point of SINNING. If I go to a wedding, mind my own business, and drink “one tee many martoonies”…get giddy, laugh , etc…but dont insult, fight, slander or cause scandal or embarrassment to any…but yet technically, I “got drunk”…I do not consider myself or anyone a drunkard on that basis, will but into the notion I have sinned mortally, and I certainly will go to Mass and take that communion guilt free of doing no wrong.

 

[Poisson]

Peace-bwu:

Everyone should have a nice glass of good red wine tonight and make a toast to Jesus! :clapping: :bowdown:

I’ll drink to that.
I love being a Catholic where there’s no contradiction between a pint and a pew.

 

[Melchior]

Faithful 2 Rome:

Gee whiz…nothing is said about BEER or VODKA in the bible…what to do??? But guess what…I drink that as well and have NO REMORSE for it.

A drunkard cannot be classified as one who got drunk once or twice out of X amount of times…a drunkard is an alcoholic…a drunkard is one who drinks to the point of lowered inhibitions to the point of SINNING. If I go to a wedding, mind my own business, and drink “one tee many martoonies”…get giddy, laugh , etc…but dont insult, fight, slander or cause scandal or embarrassment to any…but yet technically, I “got drunk”…I do not consider myself or anyone a drunkard on that basis, will but into the notion I have sinned mortally, and I certainly will go to Mass and take that communion guilt free of doing no wrong.

I believe beer, vodka, scotch (single malt only), single batch wiskey and Tequila all fall under “Strong Drink” in the Bible. So you are good.

 

[Faithful_2_Rome]

I’ll drink to that as well!

I also like to smoke a stogie when I drink…oh my…TOBACCO! Plus I feel lucky…I think I may go do some gambling…while I drink some Chivas “neat” and puff on my cigar.

 

[Ham1]

bengal_fan:

in a very heterosexual way…i love you. alcohol can be a wonderful thing, it does promote brotherhood and it is a very bonding thing to “have a beer” with some one. wine adds so much flavor to everything. hard liquor has medicinal value and is quite tasty (depending on your tastes). it’s interesting how in europe there is far less instances of drunkeness and obesity. this is not an argument to legalize all drugs as they have in holland but people don’t binge drink in europe as they do here and i wonder if that is because of their relaxed attitude (and maybe even biblical attitude) toward it. hard drugs can be instantly addictive which we know is wrong (good argument against tobacco and it’s addictive quality) and marijuana can and does cause damage even when used “recreationally” while alcohol can be healthy for you and when used in moderation is not bad for you.

I TOTALLY understand…high five!

Ever notice how a party takes on a whole new meaning if there is a keg? Then, you know it’s a REAL party. All my close friends and relatives consider drinking to be a very important part of being Catholic. I mean, let’s face it, if we didn’t then we’d be protestants.

There is also the virtue of hospitality. Any Catholic should immediately welcome ANY visitor to his home with the offer of an alcoholic beverage. Anything less would be…well, uncivilized.

I had a professor who used to say his students were the best because they “studied hard, prayed hard and drank hard.”

 

[Ham1]

I propose everyone who reads this thread go home and drink tonight. Raise a glass for each other. Then one for the Pope. Then one for the Forums. Then one for the…you get the idea.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Why open the door for satan to come in? As for me I,ll get drunk in the Holy Spirit. Best high you will get with no hangover.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Faithful 2 Rome:

I’ll drink to that as well!

I also like to smoke a stogie when I drink…oh my…TOBACCO! Plus I feel lucky…I think I may go do some gambling…while I drink some Chivas “neat” and puff on my cigar.

Sounds like a good catholic boy to me.