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Poisson
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He didn’t drive a car either so I guess you don’t. He didn’t eat corn or tomatoes and I don’t think he ate pork. Scripture never ever says he used a computer (even the New World Translation).
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Melchior
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First, I am not Catholic. I am an Evangelical Protestant (of the historic type).Isnt it amazing that christians are different. You keep believing that moderate drinking allows you to share your faith. Thats what satan wants you to believe. Next youll tell me its okay to use foul language,or its okay to gamble,its okay to tell lies.Sounds like catholic teaching to me.
Second, why don’t you show me in scripture where moderate drinking is satanic? By your reasoning Jesus was a sinner! Foul language and gambling are never called good things in the Bible. They are never encouraged. I have already shown in a previous post, as have others, that scripture in numerous places encurages drinking and wine is a sign of blessing and it’s absence a curse.
The burden of proof is on you. Scripture is not on your side. Neither is Jesus who turned water into wine - not Welch’s Grape Juice. He istituted the Lord’ Supper with wine and commanded us to drink it! So your choice is to either believe God’s word or your own man-made traditions.
Blessings,
Mel
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Melchior
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I do appreciate your sincerity in not wishing to bring scandal to the name of Christ, and your desire to avoid sin, I really do. But we also must seek to grown in grace and Christian maturity. In scripture the weaker brother is always the one who is portrayed as needing to be a strict “monastic” in some areas by abstinence - whether it be avoiding meat or social events or wine or other things that are neither sinful or not sinful in and of themselves. This is indeed fine and perhaps helpful to the new believer. But when a Christian matures he must grow in discernment. Hiding from the world (I don’t mean the sinful world) and cloistering himself is not maturity it is immaturity. Which is fine. But the immature should not try and bind another believers conscience where God has not.I personally do not see a problem with drinking a glass of wine at your meal. I have made it a rule in my life I will not drink a glass of wine outside of my dinner table. I will not put myself in a position where I may stumble. I also dont drink any other alchol. Especially if you are involved in any of our Lords ministry. Dont give satan that oppertunity to come in and cause you to fall.
You could just as easily say that attractive women should not go to church since that could create a stumbling block for men. I mean seeing a preety girl could “cause” someone to lust, right? So don’t go to church that way you will avoid stumbling. Or at least forbid women from attending the same service.
Mel
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Peace-bwu
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I agree, for every season turn turn turn. the bengals will win the conference this year! i live near pittsburgh now and that’s a sin to say here but who cares, they don’t care about us anyway they hate the browns and we are an afterthought. not after last year though
…kind of like when I was a kid. We moved to the Cleveland area and wore Bengals shirts :whacky: It was my dad’s little rebellion, he made all 4 kids wear Bengals and OSU shirts. He was probably putting us in grave peril! I’m just glad it wasn’t the other way around, and we didn’t have to wear necklaces made out to dog biscuits, or something! We had our brand new van stolen in Pittsburg in '85 and the police took us in the back of a paddy wagon to the projects to retrieve it. We also went to a Pirates game but I rooted for the Cubs because I thought Mark Grace was cute… Good times, good times… off the subject but, good times.
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Peace-bwu
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Spokenword,
You are entitled to make the decision to avoid alcohol all together! I would probably make the same choice if I started drinking too much or if I had alcoholics in my family and wanted to avoid becoming and alcoholic myself… Members of my family are obese, and I have always taken care not to fall into that trap by eating well and getting regular exercise.
I’m not saying you have made that decison because you have alcoholics in your family… but I think we can all agree that drinking alcohol does not go against God, and Scripture. Drunkenness can become sinful, just like gluttony, materialism, or any other instance where a person worships an “idol” before God. I guess this is why so many holy orders have vows of povery, chastity, sobriety , etc. There is nothing wrong with avoiding these activities all together, but don’t automatically assume someone is sinning because they eat, drink and make love to their spouses. (John the Baptist gave up alcohol, lived off the land and ate locusts, Jesus ate, drank wine (in moderation) and was social, but he was the only sinless man who ever walked the Earth, because he was the Son of God.) This same verse says people criticized them both, calling Jesus a drunkard, obviously they were wrong.
Peace Be With You
You are entitled to make the decision to avoid alcohol all together! I would probably make the same choice if I started drinking too much or if I had alcoholics in my family and wanted to avoid becoming and alcoholic myself… Members of my family are obese, and I have always taken care not to fall into that trap by eating well and getting regular exercise.
I’m not saying you have made that decison because you have alcoholics in your family… but I think we can all agree that drinking alcohol does not go against God, and Scripture. Drunkenness can become sinful, just like gluttony, materialism, or any other instance where a person worships an “idol” before God. I guess this is why so many holy orders have vows of povery, chastity, sobriety , etc. There is nothing wrong with avoiding these activities all together, but don’t automatically assume someone is sinning because they eat, drink and make love to their spouses. (John the Baptist gave up alcohol, lived off the land and ate locusts, Jesus ate, drank wine (in moderation) and was social, but he was the only sinless man who ever walked the Earth, because he was the Son of God.) This same verse says people criticized them both, calling Jesus a drunkard, obviously they were wrong.
Peace Be With You
R
Richard_Lamb
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Lion_of_Narnia
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I’ve read some of the temperance “scholarship” regarding period no alchohol wine–to be short, it’s pretty bad (as in not according to reality)
“new wine” not having any or very low alcohol content–why at Pentecost were the apostles accused of being drunk of "new wine’
As episcopalian pastor Robert Capon pointed out in his delightful Supper of the Lamb, sugar on the inside, yeast on the outside, crush, let sit just a little while, you have wine. From my own experience in home brewing, one gets intoxicating strength within a week or less of fermentation.
I’ve run the idea of “reconstituted raison juice” by a rabbi aquantance, as the drink of Passover, being well past grape harvest season. The rabbi (who happens to be from Texas) said there is no historical evidence that this was done (except in dire privation) that fermented wine is THE beverage of jewish Sacramental use–and to do other wise except in extreme circumstance was a violation of Jewish ceremonial laws. Jesus would have used fermented wine.
In regards to drunkedness and amounts, A.A. has a pretty good rule of thumb;
“It’s not how much you drink.
It’s not what you drink.
It’s what you DO when you drink, whatever the drink, whatever the amount”
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Servant1
Guest
The wine used “back in the day” WAS fermented - it fermented naturallly because of chemistry, and that’s the way they were used to drinking it. The Jews KNOW what wine was and is, they’ve been using it and calling it wine for thousands of years. Ceremonial wine was/is no less alcoholic than other wine. There were no refrigerators, and, left at ambient temperature, the stuff would then ferment, just as it does now, left on its on. Viniculture is an extremely ancient practice. The alcohol forms naturally.
And guess who created nature?
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Servant1
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Good quote. And note the reference to other fermented drink… the production of beer, and the agriculture associated therewith, has been a part of the history of civilization since the times mankind inhabited only the Fertile Crescent. The OLDEST of archeological digs have turned up vessels and equipment used in the production of beer and ale. Millenia before Christ, the Egyptians had a highly developed beer industry, with various recipes, some of which have now been found and duplicated.
I remember seeing a great entry on this thread by someone who was in the medical community (as I am) about differing BA levels. Well here’s another tidbit: There is an enzyme in the normal human body the SOLE purpose of which is the breaking down and starting the metabolism of ethanol. Assuming an intelligent designer/engineer for that human body, is it possible we were designed with an enzyme to perform a function we would be forbidden to use???
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davy39
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Do EVERYTHING in moderation. That’s what I’ve tried to do. I do not believe that you will be condemned to hell for drinking one beer. My brother-in-law is a nazarene minister and a fine guy, but he wouldn’t drink one beer if he was dying of thirst. That’s the way they believe, but I don’t. That’s one of the reasons his sister (my wife) joined the Catholic church 11 years ago. Among others. But I don’t ridicule them for believing that way.
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sparkle
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Hi Copland:
Yesterday my pastor at a Protestant Church also preached about a Christian “not drinking alcohol”. I think the correct interpretation is a Christian should not be “a drunkard”. There is a difference. Was your Pastor preaching from Titus per chance? Maybe we were at the same church! LOL!haha
I’m also considering converting to Catholicism this next Easter. Praise the Lord! I’m finding a couple things preached about lately that are starting to bug me a bit too! But not too many! My son’s youth pastor also said last week: “Catholics pray to Mary instead of to God”. So I gave him some handouts on the topic, and we had a chat about it. Turns out he is a cradle Catholic now turned Fundamentalist. Strange huh? Hope I can help him!!!
You know what’s right Copland-----trust your gut~~~~
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sparkle
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Oh My-----after reading over all these comments–I think I’m going to crack open my nice red Pinot Noir and have ONE glass. Why not?
Re: the above comment: yes, I’ve noticed so many Fundamentalist Denominations condemn this, that, and yet look at all the gluttons in churches! And how true when do we ever hear a good sermon on gluttony??? A real problem I think in America!!!
Also however, how true the statements mentioned, that if drinking causes one little one to stumble --then it IS a sin! We all need to be mindful of this!!! The last thing kids need in this culture is to think “drinking is cool”-----it’s not. It kills people~~~~
God Bless~~
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bengal_fan
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Lion of Narnia:
good quote coming from a christian (at least founded as a christian) organization. also, i love your name aslan.
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Makerteacher
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There is a tremendous difference between having a drink or two, and being drunk, and guess what? We all know what that diofference is, even if we personally may not drink.
I personally prefer a fine dark Irish beer, or some good southern whiskey, to wine of any kind, but my Italian husband likes the wine best and we always have several bottles about. However, he has never once been drunk, and I have only been drunk once, and I swear it was accidental.
No really. It was. 
Some of the finest theological discussions I have ever had involved two or three couples, a bottle of (name your favorite booze here), and a bowl of pretzels or popcorn (or brie and crackers).
I personally think God loved us Irish best since to us he gave whiskey and those yummy dark ales…
I personally prefer a fine dark Irish beer, or some good southern whiskey, to wine of any kind, but my Italian husband likes the wine best and we always have several bottles about. However, he has never once been drunk, and I have only been drunk once, and I swear it was accidental.
No really. It was. Some of the finest theological discussions I have ever had involved two or three couples, a bottle of (name your favorite booze here), and a bowl of pretzels or popcorn (or brie and crackers).
I personally think God loved us Irish best since to us he gave whiskey and those yummy dark ales…
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kpnuts2k
Guest
jesus’ 1st mirical was turning water to wine so if he could drink it can’t we?
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mark_a
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Depends on how much you have eaten.
Too much food to blunt the effect of alcohol and you are a glutton.
Too little food and the same amount of alcohol makes you a drunk. It’s all very theological. Catholicism is so complicated!
My favorite response the “not fermented” point of view is “If he could turn water into grape juice, he could sure as heck put a little alcohol in it!!!”
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Mike_C
Guest
In St. Paul’s letter to Timothy he tells Timothy to “drink a little wine, for your stomach’s sake”. Grape juice wasn’t invented until the 1830’s.
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