Early islamic historians, how important are they to muslims?

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Servant19 said:
Any Jewish, Christian and Muslim scholar is purely speculating as to what their Holy Books mean.

Daniel himself would affirm it.

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This is so untrue. You don’t even know what the Bible is in the first place.

MJ
 
MartinJordan said:
This is so untrue. You don’t even know what the Bible is in the first place.

MJ
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Not that untrue, as then we would consider that the Jewish Scholar got it correct, that Christ was not the Messiah.

Now if during research the Jewish Became a Christian, is he Jewish or Christian Scholar?

In any case we will be able to find Scholars that during research accept the Next Message.

Regards Tony
 
TonyBS said:
Not that untrue, as then we would consider that the Jewish Scholar got it correct, that Christ was not the Messiah.
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? When the Jewish scholars don’t read the New Testament? In this paradigm there is no point even mentioning Jewish scholars.
Now if during research the Jewish Became a Christian, is he Jewish or Christian Scholar?
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Unless the Jewish scholar tries to practice Christian doctrine he remains a Jew. You can’t find research being the only way to God. Only God can lead a person. Not by simply researching only. A person’s tradition and his faith supersedes research.
In any case we will be able to find Scholars that during research accept the Next Message.
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Only from a 19th century mindset that skips verses there apparently is the Next Message. :eek:

MJ
 
JimmyDFG said:
That’s Baha’u’llah interpretation. Could it be that Baha’i is this one world religion in Revelation
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Its not actually. It is the interpretation of the Bab who spoke of Baha’u’llah and His glorious station without ever meeting Him.

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MartinJordan said:
Jesus defined it. He is the Truth. He is Mercy.

Now someone will copy my words and the characteristics of Jesus and claim it also belonging to their faith. The Truth is no one can live with themselves without clinging to Jesus.

MJ
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…and bizarrely you don’t appreciate that Truth when it is staring at you straight in the face from another Source. This is called idol worship 🙂

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To get back on topic. I’ve read that sahi Bukhari is a very early Islamic scholar who is very important to the Sunni sect of Islam. However, I’m not sure who the historian is that’s as early or as influential in the Shia sect of Islam.
 
gmcbroom said:
To get back on topic. I’ve read that sahi Bukhari is a very early Islamic scholar who is very important to the Sunni sect of Islam. However, I’m not sure who the historian is that’s as early or as influential in the Shia sect of Islam.
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Might need clarification I found a book with this name? Compiled by Imam al-Bukhari

“Thus, not only is Sahih al-Bukhari the most authentic book of hadith ever compiled, but Imam al-Bukhari also had the foresight to organize it into a book of law that helps everyday Muslims live their lives as close to the life of the Prophet as possible”.

Was interesting though, thank you for the name. I found this link for a read.

lostislamichistory.com/imam-al-bukhari-and-the-science-of-hadith/

Regards Tony
 
He is the one I mentioned indeed for those that follow the Sunni sect you can’t get any closer on the way and life of Mohammed. However, I’m curious who the Islamic scholar is for the Shia.
 
The problem is they may be authors but which was the earliest of the Shia sect to leave behind foundational writings on Islam. See with Sunni Islam of today you can go back to Bukhari as a source text on how Mohammed lived. It’s a double edged sword for Muslims of the Sunni sect in the west, as their confronted with a picture of islamnin its earliest period and a bloody mosaic it is. So anyone that thinks that Islam is always peaceful is in for a rude awakening through Bukhari. But does Shia Islam have the same problem? That’s what I’m curious about.
 
gmcbroom said:
The problem is they may be authors but which was the earliest of the Shia sect to leave behind foundational writings on Islam. See with Sunni Islam of today you can go back to Bukhari as a source text on how Mohammed lived. It’s a double edged sword for Muslims of the Sunni sect in the west, as their confronted with a picture of islamnin its earliest period and a bloody mosaic it is. So anyone that thinks that Islam is always peaceful is in for a rude awakening through Bukhari. But does Shia Islam have the same problem? That’s what I’m curious about.
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Would be good to find out, from my understanding The Shia line is the covernanted line, the true succession. Thus the First Imman was with Muhammad. Sorry short of time, so will comment more later.

Regards Tony
 
Servant19 said:
No I don’t…

I said all Manifestations of God have a human AND DIVINE nature.

That doesn’t mean that He shares in the essence of God, otherwise that is pantheism Techno…

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Only in the Bahai paradigm there is such thing as manifestion of God. Creating a straw man by saying Jesus does not share in the Essence is quite ignorant.

MJ
 
MartinJordan said:
Only in the Bahai paradigm there is such thing as manifestion of God. Creating a straw man by saying Jesus does not share in the Essence is quite ignorant.

MJ
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Right, Jesus has a Divine Nature…but does not share in the essence of God… is impossible.
 
JimmyDFG said:
So there is no real tangible evidence that muhammad came before Adam?

From my understanding muhammad at the age of 40 had the quran dictated to him by Gabriel. Why are 40 plus years you knew nothing of your existence before hand?

It seems to be a problem with hadiths is that muslims can accept or deny its authenticity depending on whether it will benefit them or not. When a certain hadith suits them it is considered to be authentic and when it does not, they say it is not authentic. The same hadith can be authentic and unauthentic depending on situations.

The hadith contradicts the Quran 18:110 “Say [O Prophet]: “I am but a mortal man like all of you.”
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You may be right that people discuss hadiths according to self views.

Hadith did not say body of Muhammad was created but light(or soul). Body is mortal and Muhammad had a mortal body like all other humanbeing. There is no contradiction.

There are hadiths about life of Muhammad before revelation but those are few. People had started wrote case of Muhammad after revelation and that is usual. Because the life of Muhammad before revelation is not concerned in Islam directly.

You may be right that people discuss hadiths according to self views.
 
JimmyDFG said:
So there is no real tangible evidence that muhammad came before Adam?

From my understanding muhammad at the age of 40 had the quran dictated to him by Gabriel. Why are 40 plus years you knew nothing of your existence before hand?

It seems to be a problem with hadiths is that muslims can accept or deny its authenticity depending on whether it will benefit them or not. When a certain hadith suits them it is considered to be authentic and when it does not, they say it is not authentic. The same hadith can be authentic and unauthentic depending on situations.

The hadith contradicts the Quran 18:110 “Say [O Prophet]: “I am but a mortal man like all of you.”
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Well, before the Quran, there was no real reason for people to record anything about the life of Muhammad, so it makes sense that there would be few hadiths dating back that far.

Regarding authenticity, particularly of that specific hadith, the Quran is always to take priority over the Sunnah, though authentic Sunnah should not contradict the Quran. If there is a contradiction between the two, then they are to be reconciled as far as possible. If a contradiction still exists, the hadith is of doubtful authenticity. If I remember correctly, none of the mutawatir (continuous) hadith are known contradict the Quran; it is only ahad (solitary) hadith that do. Ahad is more difficult to authenticate because it comes from fewer sources and is harder to trace. Jurists also “grade” a hadith as either authentic, good, or weak, depending on its source, so without knowing the history of that one, it would be difficult to know how it is interpreted or how widely it is accepted.
 
MartinJordan said:
So there is no Islamic Scholar before 600 AD. Good.

MJ
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Yes there was Martin.

It was Muhammad. Muhammad’s human name at the time was Jesus “at the time”, and He was the main Islamic scholar prior to 600AD. At the time when He produced His scholarly works, there was no other name on heaven and earth which provided Islamic scholarship.

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