Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic

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aloneinjax said:
Okay, I get the own prayer, per their region, aspect. But, they can be in with Rome even though they do not use the Latin Rite?
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I think the best way to look at it is to think of the Orthodox Church. We have the Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, Serbian Orthodox Churches etc. We are all in communion with each other but our Churches are independently governed and are bound by our common faith, Tradition and conciliar decisions.

The Catholic Church in theory operates much the same way. You have the Latin Church, Melkite, Ukrainian, Syro-Malabar Churches etc. The Pope and Curia should have little or no say in the day to day governance of the other Catholic Churches. The difference is the way the Dogmas of Papal Infallibility and Supremacy have affected the other Churches. They have at times for a number of reasons been dominated by the Latin Church, although part of the reforms of Vatican II were designed to return the Eastern Churches to their traditions and to move them towards a more authentically Eastern ecclesiology.

(Eastern Catholics, how did I do?) 🙂

Yours in Christ
Joe
 
aloneinjax said:
Okay, I get the own prayer, per their region, aspect. But, they can be in with Rome even though they do not use the Latin Rite?
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they are. they accept the current Bishop of Rome as Pope, and head of the Church.

they are Catholic, but not Roman Catholic. not because they are not in communion with Rome (because they are) but because they are not Latin / Roman in culture, liturgy, or traditions.
 
josephdaniel29 said:
How pretentious, you telling us what we and our leaders believe. Lets hear it straight from them.
**Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew **

In the distant past, great attempts have been made by both sides to prove, and motivated by a different spirit, each side has judged the other as being divergent from the true faith.

This deeply rooted conviction of our divergence has led us to a thousand years of separate and autonomous courses. We confirm not with unexpected astonishment, but neither with indifference, that indeed the divergence between us continually increases and the end point to which our courses are taking us, foreseeably, are indeed different. Our heart is opposed to the specter of an everlasting separation. Our heart requires that we seek again our common foundations, and the original starting point that we share. So that, retrospectively we can discover the point and the reasons for our divergence that led to separate courses, and be able, by lifting blame, to proceed thereafter on the same road leading to the same common goal.

Assuredly our problem is neither geographical nor one of personal alienation. Neither is it a problem of organizational structures, nor jurisdictional arrangements. Neither is it a problem of external submission, nor absorption of individuals and groups. It is something deeper and more substantive.

The manner in which we exist has become ontologically different. Unless our ontological transfiguration and transformation toward one common model of life is achieved, not only in form but also in substance, unity and its accompanying realization become impossible.

**Patriarch Kirill **

In speaking about relations between the Churches…“nevertheless, we have be accountable for a great number of differences in doctrine and practice between the Orthodox and the Catholic Churches and, in this regard, there is no room for compromise.”

Metropolitan Hilarion (Department for external Church relations)

“But you should understand that we do not expect any rapprochement with the Catholics in the field of theology. We participate in the theological dialogue, but it seems to be difficult and long as there are many difficulties and riffs.”

Metropolitan Jonah (Orthodox Church in America)

“We share the hope of full ecumenical relationship and reconciliation with the Roman Catholic Church. However, I believe that we are of one mind, the Anglicans and the Orthodox, in that we reject the papal ecclesiology and the theological distortions of papal infallibility, and some of the hypertrophy regarding Our Most Holy Lady Theotokos, the Ever-Virgin Mary. We love the Most Pure Mother of God, but I think we have to remember what is right and decent and in order. And it’s only by, only by the repeal of such doctrines that there is going to be any possibility of reconciliation of the Roman Church with the Orthodox Church.”.
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Pretentious. :rolleyes: Spare me.
Where did I ever tell you and your leaders what you believe? :confused:

I stated there are ex-Catholics that like to **over emphasis ** the differences. Your leaders and our leaders point out the difference but seem to acknowledge, more then some wish to admit, that there is much in common and are meeting to talk about these issues. They’ve acknowleged that there are greater threats like secularism, but people like you seem to keep pointing to Catholicism as the enemy
josephdaniel29 said:
For some reason there seems to be a segment of Roman Catholics who either refuse or are incapable of seeing that.
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Oh no, I am very capable of seeing your anti-Catholic bigotry.
josephdaniel29 said:
Yours in Christ
Joe
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How superficial of you Joe.
 
josephdaniel29 said:
I think the best way to look at it is to think of the Orthodox Church. We have the Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, Serbian Orthodox Churches etc. We are all in communion with each other but our Churches are independently governed and are bound by our common faith, Tradition and conciliar decisions.

The Catholic Church in theory operates much the same way. You have the Latin Church, Melkite, Ukrainian, Syro-Malabar Churches etc. The Pope and Curia should have little or no say in the day to day governance of the other Catholic Churches. The difference is the way the Dogmas of Papal Infallibility and Supremacy have affected the other Churches. They have at times for a number of reasons been dominated by the Latin Church, although part of the reforms of Vatican II were designed to return the Eastern Churches to their traditions and to move them towards a more authentically Eastern ecclesiology.

(Eastern Catholics, how did I do?) 🙂

Yours in Christ
Joe
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O.K. Joe (though Infallibility on morals has never been questioned by our hierarchy I believe). Doesn’t anyone sleep here?

I would say, however, the Orthodox world as you portray it is not so clear-cut. For example, the situation of the Orthodox in Ukraine: there are 3 different Orthodox Churches struggling for supremacy, one of which is supported by and subservient to the Moscow Patriarch. The two others are more nationally-conscious, though not canonically recognized because of Moscow’s objections to losing the 2nd largest Orthodox country in the world. The Ukrainian Orthodox Church in the diaspora looks favorably on the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church and the Ukrainian Orthodox Church - Kyivan Patriarchate. The Ukrainian Orthodox diaspora to a large degree sees the Ukrainian Orthodox Church- Moscow Patriarchate (run from Moscow in Russia) as a foreign element dating back to times of repression (and I have Ukrainian Orthodox in my family, and their priests state the same quite often) and a tool for Russification of Ukrainian culture and language. Ukrainian Orthodoxy in the Kyivan-Mohyla Academy was tops before a process of Russification of the Kyivan Church took place under Moscow.

The struggle over canonicity has even brought in the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople who has held talks with the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church (which existed up until the 1930s before being liquidated by Stalin) for them to be under the Ecumenical Patriarch (EP) and not under the Moscow Patriarch (MP). The EP and the MP do not always see eye-to-eye and have already argued over the Baltics I believe. Indeed, the Ukrainian Orthodox Church was under Constantinople until Moscow took the reigns. It is power politics and I truly wish the MP would publicly repent of his days and work under the Soviets, as the Patriarch of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church - Kyivan Patriarchate has already done for he knew what was done under the Soviet regime could not be justified and had to be recanted publicly. Patriarch Kirill has never attempted this and I wish for the Russian people that he would. He was there when the K.G.B. would rat out true and holy Russian Orthodox churchmen who refused to be subservient to the Soviet Kremlin - real Russian heroes.

There is no court of last resort, so to speak, in these situations in the Orthodox world for when canonicity is at issue. Caesaropapism and phyletism were more prominent in the Orthodox world. On the other hand of course, there was a streak of Latin triumphalism before V2. I mean St.s Cyril and Methodius were banned from proselytizing originally in the Slavic language, as only Latin was acceptable to Rome back in the 10th Century which basically gifted the entire East Slav proto-nation to Byzantium. However, I wouldn’t trade the Divine Liturgy for anything, but I feel stuck between two worlds at times.

The Patriarch of our Ukrainian Catholic Church, His Beatitude Lubomyr, has basically been told that the very existence of our Catholic Church, built on the blood of martyrs, has no right to exist in the view of the Orthodox Moscow Patriarch and on one occasion by the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople. How Christian. Anytime the Vatican breaches the subject of ecumenism, the Orthodox EP and MP say no way, not with Rome allowing the Ukrainian Catholics to exist. Why should the Orthodox Patriarchs be able to put the gun to the head of an Eastern Catholic Church like mine before it decides to “talk” with Rome. We’ve done nothing wrong and remain loyal to the Holy See.

I don’t wish to offend anyone as it seems nerves get way too high on Catholic/Orthodox discussions so I hope it is understood I am just trying to be frank. Plus, I think the difficulty of even presenting the case that Eastern Catholics are still Catholics to some Roman Catholics on this thread makes me think all these initials and details may be more than complex.

In Christ,

Andrew
 
josephdaniel29 said:
The Pope and Curia should have little or no say in the day to day governance of the other Catholic Churches. The difference is the way the Dogmas of Papal Infallibility and Supremacy have affected the other Churches.
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How pretentious. You telling us and our Church what they should believe and how it should govern itself.
 
grace_singh said:
i have a question, if it’s ok. :o

i do know that there are many Churches which are, essentially (as far as i can see) basically Oriental or Eastern Orthodox in liturgy, devotional practices, and culture, but who are in communion with Rome, and hence Catholic.
…

do you see these groups playing a role in the unification between Orthodoxy and Catholcism?
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I have thought about this a long time.

In my opinion the answer is no.

They are not going to be effective as a catalyst for unity, however one defines it.
 
grace_singh said:
i have a question, if it’s ok. :o

i do know that there are many Churches which are, essentially (as far as i can see) basically Oriental or Eastern Orthodox in liturgy, devotional practices, and culture, but who are in communion with Rome, and hence Catholic.
do you see these groups playing a role in the unification between Orthodoxy and Catholcism?
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On the other hand, in contrast to Hesychios’ answer to which I understand he has given much sincere thought, maybe an Eastern Catholic Church like the Ukrainian Catholic Church can act as a catalyst in a local environment. See here the head of the Ukrainian Catholic Church, Lubomyr Cardinal Husar, planning and hoping for Catholic/Orthodox reconciliation within a new Kyivan Church uniting both Ukrainian Catholics and Orthodox. The fact is some Eastern Catholics do make the effort for unity, and sincerely.

For this to happen, Orthodox Moscow and Constantinople would have to stop kicking their weight around the Orthodox faithful in Ukraine. Rome would probably have to agree, finally, to officially grant the Ukrainian Catholic Church Patriarchal Status. Those elements within the Curia who wish to see Roman Catholic proselytization as opposed to the local Ukrainian Catholic proselytization may have to sit back like Moscow and Constantinople and see if the locals, left to their own devices, can establish a common Kyivan Church just as in the time of Volodymyr the Great in the 10th century in communion with Rome and in communion with Constantinople, granting both agree. It would be wonderful and our Cardinal realizes it a very hard if presently unreachable goal. But at least a Ukrainian Catholic Leader, a Cardinal, is trying and holding out his hand in Christian fellowship and praying for a response from the local Ukrainian Orthodox. Here’s the proposal:

risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news/confessional/33378/

It is something to work for and could be a model for others, but don’t hold your breath. It surely is something though a true Christian could pray for. 🙂
 
jam070406 said:
Oh no, I am very capable of seeing your anti-Catholic bigotry.
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Wow, that’s original. If you can’t come up with a better position than that then you are no better than those who play the race card hoping to shut their opponents up. It’s been my experience that people who do that have no desire to debate the issues because they know that can’t win any other way.
jam070406 said:
How superficial of you Joe.
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Be careful my friend, putting yourself in God’s place. He is the only one righteous enough to pass judgment on us.

Yours in Christ
Joe
 
Not too bad for an anti-Catholic bigot eh? Of course the dirty little secret is before I discovered Orthodoxy I had enrolled in RCIA and began the process to become Catholic.

(don’t tell anyone, that would ruin my anti-Catholic credentials) 😛

Yours in Christ
Joe
 
josephdaniel29 said:
Not too bad for an anti-Catholic bigot eh? Of course the dirty little secret is before I discovered Orthodoxy I had enrolled in RCIA and began the process to become Catholic.

(don’t tell anyone, that would ruin my anti-Catholic credentials) 😛

Yours in Christ
Joe
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I apologize. Your pretentious comment and snide attitude really irked me. I reacted badly and said things I should not have. I am truly sorry.
 
I made a mistake, I am human and a sinner. If it feels good for you rub it in and beat me down then so be it. It is exchanges like these that dengrate into nothing more then expressions of pride (which I myself am guilty) that made me leave this site for 5 months. I won’t be posting here anymore. I apologize to all before I leave though.
 
Wow, great way of putting this into perspective. I ask questions because I do want to know and not to put down other religions but because I am truly interested. 🙂 Can I ask what you mean, re: your religion, stating you are somewhere between Latin and Byzantine?

Kathy
 
I find the opening few pages are usually quite good for debate and gaining understanding, after that the threads tend to degenerate, I think something that people need to remember in these debates (and it follows between any two faith traditions) is that just because someone disagrees with you, that doesn’t mean they are against you.

I’ve found that Catholics and Orthodox (on and off the forum) often have a hard time discussing faith because there are so many similarities and a thousand years of shared history that it is impossible for either to dismiss the other. This isn’t a problem either faith generally has with Protestants, who have a tendency to throw away their history and traditions (though obviously not always) so that it is like they were never part of a united church…
 
Everyone here looks at the schism between the Churches as painful. You often write about your Orthodox family members–yet I have seen a strong bias against Orthodox theology in some of your posts.

Sometimes, the two Churches are so different in her doctrinal understanding and theology that the RC wants to prove that he/she is in the correct Church by proving the other Church wrong–and vice versa. Ego is a difficult thing to squelch.
 
Easy, Mickey, easy brother!
Mickey said:
Everyone here looks at the schism between the Churches as painful. You often write about your Orthodox family members–yet I have seen a strong bias against Orthodox theology in some of your posts.

Sometimes, the two Churches are so different in her doctrinal understanding and theology that the RC wants to prove that he/she is in the correct Church by proving the other Church wrong–and vice versa. Ego is a difficult thing to squelch.
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