Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic

[aloneinjax]

Everyone here looks at the schism between the Churches as painful. You often write about your Orthodox family members–yet I have seen a strong bias against Orthodox theology in some of your posts.

Sometimes, the two Churches are so different in her doctrinal understanding and theology that the RC wants to prove that he/she is in the correct Church by proving the other Church wrong–and vice versa. Ego is a difficult thing to squelch.

Perhaps I don’t know enough history of and/or between the two churches, but why is the schism painful? Aren’t there enough alikes to put animosity aside? I was brought up very Catholic and I, myself, often wonder about answering to one man, ie: The Pope and his being infallible. I would wager that Catholics, around the world, have had thoughts like this now and then. I could bring up numerous aspects that bother me, but that isn’t what this thread is for. I truly am interested in other religions. Can I ask how different the theology is between the two churches?

Thanks in advance.

Kathy

 

[djkane01220]

I have thought long and hard on this subject. Even discussed it with my cousin who is a deacon. At first he dismissed me but after hearing me out he saw my point and agreed.

We have 4 apostolic churches Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and The Assyrian Church of the East. Plus the sedevacantist groups like the Polish National Catholic Church and the SSPX that still hold valid orders and apostolic succession. Many of the disagreements with these churches have to do with with ethnic differences, translations (ie filoque), disuse of the latin mass and other minor things and yes I have done my research and they are minor at least to me. Many teachings of these Churches are man made. Meaning that they are not God’s law. My belief is that all of these Churches are correct. Some are not in union with the Pope. But they carry on the same traditions they have for over 1000 years. I believe salvation is obtainable from any of these churches. I do not believe that salvation is obtainable from the reformed churches(protestant, baptist, mormon, etc) They have warped Gods way and are not true churches.

I am a Latin rite Catholic. But I believe that all the apostolic churches have it right. I wish we could all come into communion together not necessarily under the Pope mind you and what I mean by that is this I think that all the true churches should come into communion with each other. Yes the pope will be the head of the Roman church as the Vicar of Christ first among equals. But the others as it was in the old days will govern their own see’s. But all would be united. Yes there would be differences in translations,christology, rites, ethnicity and tradition but all would be united in the true church of Jesus Christ. All these churches Catholic, Eastern, Oriental, Assyrian, PNCC,and SSPX alike are all true churches in the grace of God and lead the pathway to salvation. Lord bless them all. In omni patris et fili et spirtus sancti Amen.

 

[grace_singh]

We have 4 apostolic churches Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and The Assyrian Church of the East. Plus the sedevacantist groups like the Polish National Catholic Church and the SSPX that still hold valid orders and apostolic succession. Many of the disagreements with these churches have to do with with ethnic differences, translations (ie filoque), disuse of the latin mass and other minor things and yes I have done my research and they are minor at least to me. Many teachings of these Churches are man made. Meaning that they are not God’s law. My belief is that all of these Churches are correct. Some are not in union with the Pope. But they carry on the same traditions they have for over 1000 years. I believe salvation is obtainable from any of these churches. I do not believe that salvation is obtainable from the reformed churches(protestant, baptist, mormon, etc) They have warped Gods way and are not true churches.

I am a Latin rite Catholic. But I believe that all the apostolic churches have it right. I wish we could all come into communion together not necessarily under the Pope mind you and what I mean by that is this I think that all the true churches should come into communion with each other. Yes the pope will be the head of the Roman church as the Vicar of Christ first among equals. But the others as it was in the old days will govern their own see’s. But all would be united. Yes there would be differences in translations,christology, rites, ethnicity and tradition but all would be united in the true church of Jesus Christ. All these churches Catholic, Eastern, Oriental, Assyrian, PNCC,and SSPX alike are all true churches in the grace of God and lead the pathway to salvation. Lord bless them all. In omni patris et fili et spirtus sancti Amen.

i agree with a lot of this, and would love to see that mutual recognition, too. only thing i’d disagree on is that those Catholic groups who have broken with Rome ought to be reconciled, recognize the current Pope, etc.

it would be great to someday see the CC, EOC, OOC, and ACE able to take communion at one another’s churches, worship there, inter-marry with one another, and still respect eachother’s differences as valid, Apsotolic Churches.

only thing i’d be concerned about is the ACE and their Nestorian Christology. i mean, they will claim they are not Nestorian in their Christology, but the influence is diffinately there, and i have read that they consider Nestorius a father of their church and revere him as a saint.

still, the ACE has retained many treasures of early, early Christianity, like the Litugy of Addai and Mari. would be great to see this ancient Church come into clearer and more orthodox standing with the other Churches, too.

 

[djkane01220]

The ACE does have a limited communion with Chaldean Catholics who are under the pope. They are allowed to attend each other liturgies and receive the sacraments if they are not able to attend their own churches I am well aware of the Nestorine Hereasies( I know spelling). But the ACE is separate from the Church of the East which follows the teachings of Nestorious

 

[Hesychios]

Perhaps I don’t know enough history of and/or between the two churches, but why is the schism painful? Aren’t there enough alikes to put animosity aside?

It is literally out of our hands.

In other words, it would be like your church inviting Anglicans and Lutherans to the table without them first accepting Catholic doctrine. You can’t do it, and those Catholics who suggest such a thing are immediately regarded as very liberal, even indifferent or modernist.

Unfortunately, the Latin Catholic church is in a position vis a vis Orthodoxy that is analogous to Lutherans/Methodists/Anglicans vis a vis Catholicism.

Naturally you would expect these potential Catholics to refer to the Catechism of the Catholic Church and assent to the teachings found there. Your church actually requires that and it was most recently mentioned in Anglicanum Coetibus.

Orthodox would expect Catholics to assent to Orthodox teaching, and refute anything formerly believed that does not conform to Orthodox teaching. There are a few dogmatic pronouncements developed by your church which are not taught in Holy Orthodoxy, and it only takes one to be a deal-breaker.

… I truly am interested in other religions. Can I ask how different the theology is between the two churches?

Seriously different. This goes beyond the dogma of Papal Infallibility (which did not exist as a theory yet, as of our separation, and was not a factor in our mutual schism).

Some Catholics are hurt and others are very offended to find this out, but there is no way to put it delicately. In most cases Catholics. Lutherans, Methodists and Episcopalians are all received into the Orthodox church in the same way, usually by Confirmation (Chrismation), but potentially even by Baptism if the bishop determines it appropriate and necessary.

 

[aloneinjax]

I have thought long and hard on this subject. Even discussed it with my cousin who is a deacon. At first he dismissed me but after hearing me out he saw my point and agreed.

We have 4 apostolic churches Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and The Assyrian Church of the East. Plus the sedevacantist groups like the Polish National Catholic Church and the SSPX that still hold valid orders and apostolic succession. Many of the disagreements with these churches have to do with with ethnic differences, translations (ie filoque), disuse of the latin mass and other minor things and yes I have done my research and they are minor at least to me. Many teachings of these Churches are man made. Meaning that they are not God’s law. My belief is that all of these Churches are correct. Some are not in union with the Pope. But they carry on the same traditions they have for over 1000 years. I believe salvation is obtainable from any of these churches. I do not believe that salvation is obtainable from the reformed churches(protestant, baptist, mormon, etc) They have warped Gods way and are not true churches.

I am a Latin rite Catholic. But I believe that all the apostolic churches have it right. I wish we could all come into communion together not necessarily under the Pope mind you and what I mean by that is this I think that all the true churches should come into communion with each other. Yes the pope will be the head of the Roman church as the Vicar of Christ first among equals. But the others as it was in the old days will govern their own see’s. But all would be united. Yes there would be differences in translations,christology, rites, ethnicity and tradition but all would be united in the true church of Jesus Christ. All these churches Catholic, Eastern, Oriental, Assyrian, PNCC,and SSPX alike are all true churches in the grace of God and lead the pathway to salvation. Lord bless them all. In omni patris et fili et spirtus sancti Amen.

Thank you for this explanation. It does help me to see what is going on more within the various churches.

Kathy

 

[aloneinjax]

It is literally out of our hands.

In other words, it would be like your church inviting Anglicans and Lutherans to the table without them first accepting Catholic doctrine. You can’t do it, and those Catholics who suggest such a thing are immediately regarded as very liberal, even indifferent or modernist.

Unfortunately, the Latin Catholic church is in a position vis a vis Orthodoxy that is analogous to Lutherans/Methodists/Anglicans vis a vis Catholicism.

Naturally you would expect these potential Catholics to refer to the Catechism of the Catholic Church and assent to the teachings found there. Your church actually requires that and it was most recently mentioned in Anglicanum Coetibus.

Orthodox would expect Catholics to assent to Orthodox teaching, and refute anything formerly believed that does not conform to Orthodox teaching. There are a few dogmatic pronouncements developed by your church which are not taught in Holy Orthodoxy, and it only takes one to be a deal-breaker.
Seriously different. This goes beyond the dogma of Papal Infallibility (which did not exist as a theory yet, as of our separation, and was not a factor in our mutual schism).

Some Catholics are hurt and others are very offended to find this out, but there is no way to put it delicately. In most cases Catholics. Lutherans, Methodists and Episcopalians are all received into the Orthodox church in the same way, usually by Confirmation (Chrismation), but potentially even by Baptism if the bishop determines it appropriate and necessary.

I see. Despite years of trying to reconnect the churches, nothing has been solved nor does it sound like it will be anytime soon. Thank you for this explanation.

Kathy

 

[Mickey]

I was brought up very Catholic and I, myself, often wonder about answering to one man, ie: The Pope and his being infallible. I would wager that Catholics, around the world, have had thoughts like this now and then.

That is a good point. A supreme infallible pontiff of Rome is not Sacred Tradition–never was.

 

[aloneinjax]

That is a good point. A supreme infallible pontiff of Rome is not Sacred Tradition–never was.

Oh, I didn’t know that. Wow! Thanks.

Kathy

 

[djkane01220]

I am Catholic and I knew that it was a declaration made at the First Vatican Council. I agree with my church about most things and I will be honest this isn’t one of them. Its a man made law. The original church before the schisms had See’s ie: Bishop of Antioch etc that were governed by their own Patriarch. The Roman Bishop or The Pope was considered first among equals and Vicar of Christ but was not in charge of all the See’s the local Patriarchs took care of them. The Pope just headed the Latin Church. Each Patriarch had their own say about things and didn’t answer to the Pope such matters were discussed at the early councils. The Pope being supreme ruler of the Catholic Church came about after the schisms and the First Vatican Council made it Canon Law by saying the Pope could do no wrong… Its the the one thing I don’t agree with and I hope for unity some day and this must be fixed.

 

[racing59]

Reading through this thread, as an outsider, I found it very intresting,yet sad at the same time. Unity with all Christ’s Churches should be formost, the Church should be One in the Body of Christ. I’ve done a lot of soul searching and praying, but when I see division between two Christian Churches, it does bother me. I have many questions that I hope would get answered,but many times I leave these post feeling I have more questions than answers.We should all pray for Unity of all Christian Churches. This is not some thing man can do, it must come from the Super Natural, God! I wish ego was held in check and we as a Christian Community would come together as One, then we could really evangelize as Jesus intended it to be. I don’t think the early Martyrs thought about whether they were Catholic, Orthodox, or another Church as they were fed to the Lions or burned to death. I’m willing to bet their thoughts were of Jesus Christ.Excuse me for my post, I thought I’d put in my two cents for what it’s worth. I’ve been praying for a home for me and my family for some time now. When I see,division, ego or political agenda it bothers me.Forgive me if I offended any one.
Peace be with you

 

[josie_L]

Oh, I didn’t know that. Wow! Thanks.

Kathy

Kathy, before you assume that anyone is correct in their remarks about our faith, you need to verify first, i.e., there are many articles on papal infallibility to be found on Catholic answers and other Catholic apologetic sites (Bringtoyou. com, Salvationhistory.com). There are also many books, some of which I have read that detail how papal infallibility was implicit in sacred tradition, scripture and history, “Upon this Rock” by Steve Ray and “Jesus, Peter and the Keys” by Butler to name a few.

p.s. If you need any help accessing really good info about papal infallibility or anything Catholic, please pm me. God bless.

 

[josie_L]

I am Catholic and I knew that it was a declaration made at the First Vatican Council. I agree with my church about most things and I will be honest this isn’t one of them. Its a man made law. The original church before the schisms had See’s ie: Bishop of Antioch etc that were governed by their own Patriarch. The Roman Bishop or The Pope was considered first among equals and Vicar of Christ but was not in charge of all the See’s the local Patriarchs took care of them. The Pope just headed the Latin Church. Each Patriarch had their own say about things and didn’t answer to the Pope such matters were discussed at the early councils. The Pope being supreme ruler of the Catholic Church came about after the schisms and the First Vatican Council made it Canon Law by saying the Pope could do no wrong… Its the the one thing I don’t agree with and I hope for unity some day and this must be fixed.

The Pope was never known as “first among equals”, moreover, the Pope had to ratify all conciliar decisions, i.e., without his approval it could not pass as dogma or church law.

 

[aloneinjax]

I am Catholic and I knew that it was a declaration made at the First Vatican Council. I agree with my church about most things and I will be honest this isn’t one of them. Its a man made law. The original church before the schisms had See’s ie: Bishop of Antioch etc that were governed by their own Patriarch. The Roman Bishop or The Pope was considered first among equals and Vicar of Christ but was not in charge of all the See’s the local Patriarchs took care of them. The Pope just headed the Latin Church. Each Patriarch had their own say about things and didn’t answer to the Pope such matters were discussed at the early councils. The Pope being supreme ruler of the Catholic Church came about after the schisms and the First Vatican Council made it Canon Law by saying the Pope could do no wrong… Its the the one thing I don’t agree with and I hope for unity some day and this must be fixed.

Thank you for the history of what actually happened. I know it also was man-made about Priests not being able to marry. I’m very much against answering to one person and I know I probably have upset some folks on this forum. I apologize for that. When I see people kissing the Pope’s ring, it reminds me of the mob. Seriously, Italian, the mob, and how they kiss the ‘Don’ like that. I’ve been doing some research into these things and it is amazing what is out there to find. I have found an Orthodox Catholic church in my area and was going to check it out. Do you know anything about the Orthodox Catholic church?

Thanks in advance.

Kathy

 

[aloneinjax]

Kathy, before you assume that anyone is correct in their remarks about our faith, you need to verify first, i.e., there are many articles on papal infallibility to be found on Catholic answers and other Catholic apologetic sites (Bringtoyou. com, Salvationhistory.com). There are also many books, some of which I have read that detail how papal infallibility was implicit in sacred tradition, scripture and history, “Upon this Rock” by Steve Ray and “Jesus, Peter and the Keys” by Butler to name a few.

p.s. If you need any help accessing really good info about papal infallibility or anything Catholic, please pm me. God bless.

Thanks for the web sites. I will do some more research. Can I ask: doesn’t it bother you that one man is in charge of a very large Christian denomination? He makes rules for the church and some of those rules are not biblical in foundation. I will admit this last time around I was hoping for a younger Pope, someone more in tune with the times. However, I then realized that even a younger man would, more than likely, follow to a “T” the rules of the church and his being the head of it all. It was man-made that Priests not be allowed to marry. How do you feel about that?

Kathy

 

[djkane01220]

Thank you for the history of what actually happened. I know it also was man-made about Priests not being able to marry. I’m very much against answering to one person and I know I probably have upset some folks on this forum. I apologize for that. When I see people kissing the Pope’s ring, it reminds me of the mob. Seriously, Italian, the mob, and how they kiss the ‘Don’ like that. I’ve been doing some research into these things and it is amazing what is out there to find. I have found an Orthodox Catholic church in my area and was going to check it out. Do you know anything about the Orthodox Catholic church?

Thanks in advance.

Kathy

Kissing of a Pope or Bishops ring is a tradition I wouldn’t exactly compare it to the Mafia its a sign of respect. As for priests not being able to marry that is untrue the Eastern Rites Priests are allowed to be married and then consecrated. There are also some married Latin Rite Priests. Most of them were formally Protestant ministers and some who’s wives have died, a small few were married ordained Deacons who got special permission from their Bishop to be ordained to the Priesthood although these permissions are rarely granted. So you can be a married priest in the Catholic Church. However most priests are celibate as a sacrafice to devote their life to God and Jesus and the Church. It allows them to focus on the important aspects of religous life. Also Bishops are never married.

As for Holy Orthodoxy I see nothing wrong with doing your research and learning more about it. Go to a Divine Liturgy ask questions. However as a Catholic I would not recommend joining them. Although I believe salvation is obtainable through them with their valid orders and apostolic succession and valid sacraments I would not recommend leaving your church. To do so is schism. What works for them does not work for us as Catholics.They are part of the true church in my eyes however as of now they are sadly not united. Those born and raised orthodox who follow it will obtain salvation as well as those who convert to it from heretical religons. But to leave communion with the Pope is not adviseable I will give you a link with more info about holy orthodoxy. Its a great tradition that has lasted over 2000 years. God bless them. I will also give links about the other apastolic churches. Thank you God bless

Eastern Orthodox
answers.com/topic/eastern-orthodoxy

Oriental Orthodox
orthodoxwiki.org/Oriental_Orthodox

Assyrian Church of the East
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyrian_Church_of_the_East

Polish National Catholic Church
pncc.org/who_history.htm

 

[Mickey]

However as a Catholic I would not recommend joining them. Although I believe salvation is obtainable through them with their valid orders and apostolic succession and valid sacraments I would not recommend leaving your church. To do so is schism.

Holy Orthodoxy views the Latin Church as the one who is in schism.

 

[djkane01220]

Holy Orthodoxy views the Latin Church as the one who is in schism.

Oh I know and to be honest with you I tend to agree a bit. Well to clarify back when the schism happened the Catholic Church was very much to blame when they stated excommunicating Bishops and many worse things happened as well. We have come a long way since then and some wounds have been healed some have not. I am on the table with both sides were wrong. That;s how I feel I would never point the blame to Holy Orthodoxy or the Catholic Church. If someone who was Orthodox asked me about the Catholic Church I would give them the same answer. I would tell them to stay with Holy Orthodoxy. Hope it makes sense God Bless

 

[SSTeacher]

However most priests are celibate as a sacrifice to devote their life to God and Jesus and the Church. It allows them to focus on the important aspects of religious life.

That’s a reasonable assertion and fully commensurate with Catholic thinking upon the matter but I think in fairness it ought to be pointed out that Orthodox Christians are in no way disadvantaged because their priests are usually married. Indeed, I think it can probably be stated with much confidence that Orthodox priests are able to attend to both the material and spiritual needs of their flocks with just as much precision and detail as their Catholic counterparts. It seems to me that the Catholic argument adduced here could certainly be applied to the monastic life but that it appears to carry little weight when applied to parish life since parish priests are fighting the spiritual battle in the world alongside the laity.

And, in the world, supportive spouses are a plus not a minus.

Respectfully,
Mick

 

[djkane01220]

That’s a reasonable assertion and fully commensurate with Catholic thinking upon the matter but I think in fairness it ought to be pointed out that Orthodox Christians are in no way disadvantaged because their priests are usually married. Indeed, I think it can probably be stated with much confidence that Orthodox priests are able to attend to both the material and spiritual needs of their flocks with just as much precision and detail as their Catholic counterparts. It seems to me that the Catholic argument adduced here could certainly be applied to the monastic life but that it appears to carry little weight when applied to parish life since parish priests are fighting the spiritual battle in the world alongside the laity.

And, in the world, supportive spouses are a plus not a minus.

Respectfully,
Mick

I don’t believe there are any disadvantages to it as well. Hence why I was explaining that the Catholic Church does indeed have married priests. Most are celibate but some are married. I think its good to have both married and celibate priests. I do wish the church would relax their restrictions a bit to allow more married men to be consacrated as priests, but at the same time I think there should be celibate religious orders. Even the Orthodox have these and even in Holy Orthodoxy bishops are never married.