Eastern Orthodox Christians: Do you reject Catholic miracles and supernatural claims as false or lies?

[GaryTaylor]

Your own Church does not demand that you believe these things. It has nothing to do with the strength of your faith.

If you want to accept those apparitions—you may.

Here is a wonderful quote from the Catholic saint John of the Cross:
“All visions, revelations and impressions of heaven, however much the spiritual man may esteem them, are not equal in worth to the least act of humility.”

I agree, nor do I have any Pom Poms out for any particular veneration or devotion. My point is two-fold, one, is there are miracles in all these church’s, regardless of what one chose’s to believe. Because you don’t follow and are skeptical of it, doesn’t make it un-true.

2nd point is to hang and evil tag on anything which has drawn thousands of followers back to God, be it Zeitoun, Fatima, Seven Sorrows of the Jesuits, etc. Simply cannot be evil.

Thats not to say some of these bedroom, with no-witness vistations I am not skeptical about also.

We as individuals don’t have to believe any of it. It doesn’t change the truth of how its affected thousands. And we certainly can’t assume its evil. And as I said its not even a point of specifics in what supposedly happened, etc. Thousands of Christians are bought back into the fold, somehow, someway. These larger events can’t be evil and produce thousands of followers in Chistians churchs. How would that serve satan?

GT

 

[Mickey]

there are miracles in all these church’s

Possibly.

We as individuals don’t have to believe any of it.

Correct.

How would that serve satan?

Who is talking about serving Satan? The point that the Holy Fathers make is this: It is better to pray with faith and love and humility rather than depend on an apparition.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Has that not been mentioned serveral times through this thread by many in stating, are these the work of evil?

“Many of the holy Elders taught/teach that it is better to reject a vision that may be truly be divine…so as not to chance accepting something that may be diabolical.”

Here’s one of your statements.

Thats not evil thats indicated? So it you opinion all should be rejected as not to accept something that may be diabolical?

While I agree thats there are instances which I myself are skeptical. Some of these as I mentioned are so obvious that they produce the fruits of God, I see no sense to allude that all should fall under such thinking as this. And I find it doesn’t fit these situations.

BTW who are these church Elders? Where they alive and aware of the instances I mentioned above? What makes those talking about this right and the last 5-Popes wrong?

GT

 

[Mickey]

“Many of the holy Elders taught/teach that it is better to reject a vision that may be truly be divine…so as not to chance accepting something that may be diabolical.”

It is better to be skeptical than to be deceived.
You are free to believe whatever you like, Gary.

What makes those talking about this right and the last 5-Popes wrong?

The last five Popes? You are talking to the wrong person.

 

[Hesychios]

We as individuals don’t have to believe any of it. It doesn’t change the truth of how its affected thousands.

Actually, sometimes these things hurt the faith of people.

It isn’t discussed much in these circles, and I am not claiming this is a patristic position nor a church position. It’s my own personal observation …

I have known many who have fallen away from Christianity due to incredulity. Some people would be perfectly agreeable to the Christ of the Gospels but when it comes to snake handling, glossolalia and speaking visions they are driven away. They lose the hope they had in the church.

Others, of course, are attracted to some or even all of these things, but that is all we hear about on these forums.

For instance, I have found that most Catholics believe Medjugorje is a fake, yet no one can deny that it has change the lives and convictions of many. We just don’t know how many people have lost faith because of this long-running fakery.

In such ways the front porch is painted while the foundation is undermined.

And we certainly can’t assume its evil.

I don’t drink liquid from unlabeled bottles. That doesn’t assume anything, it’s just good sense.

This is the same approach the desert fathers learned to adopt in the case of miracles and apparitions. A healthy scepticism is called for.

 

[Mickey]

This is the same approach the desert fathers learned to adopt in the case of miracles and apparitions. A healthy scepticism is called for.

 

[Alexander_Roman]

There’s also the matter of miracles that are used by the Church to “confirm” that it is true and others are false.

Both Catholic and Orthodox tradition know and honour miraculous images and occurrences. And both have announced that such occurrences prove that one is right and all others are wrong.

From the POV of the Orthodox Church, there is a wide variety of opinion about Latin miraculous events.

We Catholics should remember that RC’s have, for centuries, decried miracles when they occurred through Orthodox saints and shrines. This happened in the often nasty interface between EC’s and EO’s. EC and RC writers would often make reference to such events within Orthodoxy by placing them in parentheses - as if to call them into question at the get-go. EC and RC’s would often deny that Orthodoxy even had the capacity to canonize saints because it wasn’t under Rome etc.

Blessed Hieromartyr Basil Velichkovsky, a Ukrainian Redemptorist underground bishop, wrote to warn EC’s against “making fun” of Orthodox saints, shrines and traditions. When I read his article, even I who was exposed to such anti-Orthodox sentiments all my life, was amazed at the depth of perfidy on the part of EC’s and RC’s in this regard.

I believe that this is the source of Orthodoxy’s reticence about having anything to do with the Roman Catholic Church - the historic treatment it received at the RC Church’s hands which made many Eastern Churches prefer to be under the domination of Muslims rather than Catholics.

Rather than try to put Orthodox here on the spot with this question, we should be trying to understand the impact of past historical hurt on current ecclesial relations between East and West.

If Orthodox don’t regard the West as “grace-bearing,” it could just be because in their experience with Western Catholics in history - they didn’t find a heck of a lot.

Alex

 

[Mickey]

Heterodox Christians have very little idea of one of the key concepts of Orthodox ascetical teaching prelest—spiritual deception—whereby a mirage is mistakenly accepted for truth. There are many examples in the Lives of the Saints where monastics and ascetics, many of whom went on to achieve genuine holiness, fell into delusion, entertaining demons in the form of angels, and even “Christ” Himself, receiving “revelations,” seeing “light” in their cells and hearing “the Lord” speaking to them. Sometimes “Christ” granted them gifts of "prophecy’ and astonishing powers. St Diadochus of Photiki warned against accepting the deceit of the evil one under the form of light or some fiery form, and St Symeon the New Theologian warned of evil spirits who cause many and various deceptions in the air.
orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/marian_apparitions.aspx

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Some of us don’t want to talk yet again about the “historical hurt” between East and West, a topic that has been discussed to death in here. I as OP was simply curious about how the Orthodox feel about Catholic supernatural phenomena. I see nothing “on the spot” and cruel about it at all. If they don’t believe it, that’s fine.

When I left Catholicism, I didn’t do so easily and with triumph and flourish. In my heart, things like Fatima, Padre Pio’s miracles, the St. Louis Exorcism case, The Dolorous Passion of Our Lord Jesus Christ revelation from Our Lord to Anne Catherine Emmerich, and a few others all stuck in my mind. I had some REALLY BAD experiences in the Catholic Church and still have issues with several key teachings, but these supernatural occurences stayed with me and struck a chord. They’re NOT the only reason I went back to Catholicism but they played a role in there somewhere. I know that several Orthodox in here are former Catholics. I was wondering what they thought when they left. Were they able to just reject these miracles in leaving or did they retain a respect for them and still believe?

This thread comes from my own experience, curiosities, and interest in the supernatural so it needs to be known that this isn’t a “gotcha!” against the East. Just curiousity and speculation, discussion, and I’m trying to get the insight of others in my own journey…

Rather than try to put Orthodox here on the spot with this question, we should be trying to understand the impact of past historical hurt on current ecclesial relations between East and West.

If Orthodox don’t regard the West as “grace-bearing,” it could just be because in their experience with Western Catholics in history - they didn’t find a heck of a lot.

Alex

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Don’t drink from unlabeled bottles?

One thing I thought as I read this post was how, if supernatural occurences were a turn-off and should thus be thrown into the closet storeroom so as to keep skeptics in the Church, what would one say in the first century? Thomas Jefferson himself thought that he LOVED the teachings of Jesus about morality, how to live one’s daily life, how to forgive, how to love God BUT Jefferson wholly rejected the walking on water, raising of Lazarus, story of Jairus’ daughter, multiplication of loaves, and ultimately rising from the dead on Easter. He went through and cut out the supernatural parts in the Bible and made his own “Jefferson Bible.” Apparently supernatural stuff was a turn-off to the great Jefferson. So is the Church supposed to bury and ignore what the Catholic laity and Catholic Church herself believe to be truly God-driven phenomenon just because a few people might be turned off by it?

I personally do believe that Medjugorje was and is a fake deal, too. But how many people have actually “left” the Church over that? Precious few I’m sure. The pedophilia scandal and corrupt cover-ups along with the very, very challenging morality of Catholicism (birth control, divorce, remarriage, etc.) are far more likely reasons than some simple claims about Medjugorje, don’t you think?

Actually, sometimes these things hurt the faith of people.

It isn’t discussed much in these circles, and I am not claiming this is a patristic position nor a church position. It’s my own personal observation …

I have known many who have fallen away from Christianity due to incredulity. Some people would be perfectly agreeable to the Christ of the Gospels but when it comes to snake handling, glossolalia and speaking visions they are driven away. They lose the hope they had in the church.

Others, of course, are attracted to some or even all of these things, but that is all we hear about on these forums.

For instance, I have found that most Catholics believe Medjugorje is a fake, yet no one can deny that it has change the lives and convictions of many. We just don’t know how many people have lost faith because of this long-running fakery.

In such ways the front porch is painted while the foundation is undermined.
I don’t drink liquid from unlabeled bottles. That doesn’t assume anything, it’s just good sense.

This is the same approach the desert fathers learned to adopt in the case of miracles and apparitions. A healthy scepticism is called for.

 

[Hesychios]

I personally do believe that Medjugorje was and is a fake deal, too. But how many people have actually “left” the Church over that? Precious few I’m sure.

That is something you and I don’t know, and probably will never know, statistics are not kept on this subject.

What we do know is that this is a most irreligious age, an age of reason.

For my part I have seen more young people lose faith in religion than I could probably ever count. For some it lasts a lifetime.

I know old and elderly men who have been atheists or agnostics most of their lives, who went to Catholic schools, and one thing I think is a common reflection among them is that the church has lost credibility for reasons such as these.

I have had too many discussion (and arguments) with these people, trying to get them to see passed it to Christ Himself, not to know that these apparition claims have also sometimes harmed the church.

I am not saying this ‘as an Orthodox Christian’, I am saying it as Mike. Even if I were a Roman Catholic, which I was for fifty years, I could (and did) hold this opinion in good standing. Your mileage may vary, you can only decide for yourself through your own experience. It’s not a point we can argue over, in these matters you should keep and hold your own counsel.

That’s all I have to comment on here.

“… A good person brings forth good out of a store of goodness, but an evil person brings forth evil out of a store of evil. I tell you, on the day of judgment people will render an account for every careless word they speak. By your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.”

Then some of the scribes and Pharisees said to him, “Teacher, we wish to see a sign from you.” He said to them in reply, "An evil and unfaithful generation seeks a sign, but no sign will be given it except the sign of Jonah the prophet. Just as Jonah was in the belly of the whale three days and three nights, so will the Son of Man be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights. "Matt 12:35-40 NAB

 

[Alexander_Roman]

Some of us don’t want to talk yet again about the “historical hurt” between East and West, a topic that has been discussed to death in here. I as OP was simply curious about how the Orthodox feel about Catholic supernatural phenomena. I see nothing “on the spot” and cruel about it at all. If they don’t believe it, that’s fine.

When I left Catholicism, I didn’t do so easily and with triumph and flourish. In my heart, things like Fatima, Padre Pio’s miracles, the St. Louis Exorcism case, The Dolorous Passion of Our Lord Jesus Christ revelation from Our Lord to Anne Catherine Emmerich, and a few others all stuck in my mind. I had some REALLY BAD experiences in the Catholic Church and still have issues with several key teachings, but these supernatural occurences stayed with me and struck a chord. They’re NOT the only reason I went back to Catholicism but they played a role in there somewhere. I know that several Orthodox in here are former Catholics. I was wondering what they thought when they left. Were they able to just reject these miracles in leaving or did they retain a respect for them and still believe?

This thread comes from my own experience, curiosities, and interest in the supernatural so it needs to be known that this isn’t a “gotcha!” against the East. Just curiousity and speculation, discussion, and I’m trying to get the insight of others in my own journey…

I apologise if I came across this way (and I apparently did)!

In this case, I’m not eager to discuss historical hurts as much as trying to see how they impact or condition the way East and West look at each other and how they impact ecclesial relations. They do indeed.

The question put here is, as I understand it, has both a manifest and a latent meaning. To me with some Eastern background (although Orthodox would deny that I know very much about Orthodoxy because I’m a “uniate” - and I can live with that), the question appears to want to make the Orthodox here admit that they regard Catholicism with utter contempt.

And this is simply wrong. There are those who do, but that is not the official position of Orthodoxy. There are RC’s who regard the Orthodox with utter contempt for not being under Rome, that is another story. The Catholic tradition of seeing the Orthodox as “grace-less” is longer and more vituperant, I daresay, than the Orthodox tradition (which generally wanted just to be left alone).

The problem also is that the Fatima devotion and others have been used by Roman and Eastern Catholics to ram “union with Rome” down Orthodox throats. I know because I grew up in such a milieu and it took me a long time to turn against it. Rome certainly does today.

So I don’t doubt that Orthodox regard Fatima and similar devotions with the utmost suspicion and as being something of a political/ecumenical ploy than anything truly spiritual.

I know I would, if I were Orthodox.

Alex

 

[GaryTaylor]

Actually, sometimes these things hurt the faith of people.

Not sure who or what particluar approved Apparitions your referring to?

It isn’t discussed much in these circles, and I am not claiming this is a patristic position nor a church position. It’s my own personal observation …

In my opinion this would be just the opposite. Especially when you take an individual such as Edith Stein who converts to Christianity after reading Teresa of Avila. And of course aside from the abundant confirmed miracles of Teresa of Avila, she has a profound effect on St John John of the Cross which he constantly refers to in the footnotes of Dark Night of the Soul.

I have known many who have fallen away from Christianity due to incredulity. Some people would be perfectly agreeable to the Christ of the Gospels but when it comes to snake handling, glossolalia and speaking visions they are driven away. They lose the hope they had in the church…

This hasn’t been my experience, much the opposite. Many who couldn’t find a single supernatural account within the church also become inspired by realizing what they “thought” may have been vain is in fact correct. Especially after years of service to the church and lord. They are happy to have their faith and belief confirmed. Even through they may not change there reverence one bit and rightfully so.

Others, of course, are attracted to some or even all of these things, but that is all we hear about on these forums…

There simply is a mystical aspect to the Church and rightfully so, Always has been since OT.

For instance, I have found that most Catholics believe Medjugorje is a fake, yet no one can deny that it has change the lives and convictions of many. We just don’t know how many people have lost faith because of this long-running fakery…

Medjugorje is just not approved by the church, nor is it condemned. I would think the church would be more worried about the hunderds of thousands who attend when its not been carefully re-searched. Remains to be seen. Nonetheless there has “not” been a public miracle in this case as in Fatima, Zeituon or with many of the Saints.

In such ways the front porch is painted while the foundation is undermined.
I don’t drink liquid from unlabeled bottles. That doesn’t assume anything, it’s just good sense…

The church works from inside and outside. Which is apparent with the Miracle of the Sun at Fatima. Should God chose to intervien, then that is what happens.

This is the same approach the desert fathers learned to adopt in the case of miracles and apparitions. A healthy scepticism is called for.

Skeptical thinking is not skeptical thinking when flat out denial is promoted. Skeptical think would apply to a case such of Medjugorje when we have personal accounts of apparitions but no public miracle to confirm the supernatural.

In a case of Fatima we have a predicted, dated, timed, event scheduled by God, and then it happens just as predicted in front of 75-thousand. Thats sort of like saying it didn’t rain, after it just rained. Thats called denial not skeptical philosophy.

God Bless, Gary

 

[Hesychios]

In my opinion this would be just the opposite.
…

This hasn’t been my experience, much the opposite.

All I can say is I know people personally who have fallen away through incredulity, part of which is related to these apparitions and miraculous accounts which they refuse to believe and sometimes attribute to superstition. I’d say I can think of about nine people off the top of my head over my long life, and there may be more.

I don’t know anyone personally who found Christ through these same accounts. So that’s 9 - 0 in my experience.

I know there are published accounts of conversions, but I am talking about real people in everyday life that I can know and talk to.

Tales of spinning suns and Holy Fires just bring out a negative reaction in a lot of people. We see that here. I don’t make this stuff up.

I am just saying that if one argument in favor of them is that they do so much good, I just don’t see it. I think that as a false premise.

 

[Alexander_Roman]

what a fascinating post, Joseph! Thank you! It’s encouraging to know that SOME Orthodox accept us. I know that there is a mixed bag with the predominant view being “heck if I know” and some saying “no!” and some minorities saying “absolutely.” I like the latter!

But why should whether some Orthodox accept “us” matter? Are you seeking legitimation from the Orthodox?

Just asking as I found that statement to be most curious.

Alex

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Why would Catholics, who teach that they are the True Church, need to seek legitimacy from Orthodoxy? I’m simply saying that I find it encouraging that some folks in Orthodoxy accept our miracles just as many of we Catholics (myself included) believe in the Eastern ones…

I’m a curious sort of fellow, Alex!

But why should whether some Orthodox accept “us” matter? Are you seeking legitimation from the Orthodox?

Just asking as I found that statement to be most curious.

Alex

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

No need for apologies though it is much-appreciated, Alex. But I must reiterate, the question does NOT seek to make Orthodox appear as villainous bad guys. I don’t view Orthodox as sinister, never have, never will. I simply would like to know their thinking on these miracles and if they might consider them as valid. I think that men like Padre Pio have been great testimony to the power of the Church and how God works through her. I would personally have a tough time rejecting his miracles myself. I wonder if those who left Catholicism for Orthodoxy, etc. have rejected those miracles. It’s just a question. It has no dark underbelly to it.

I apologise if I came across this way (and I apparently did)!

the question appears to want to make the Orthodox here admit that they regard Catholicism with utter contempt.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

But the only irony about your statement I see is that you’re trying to appeal to skeptics through reason alone. Oddly enough, that is what Orthodox usually accuse the Catholics of doing! Jesus is not about reason only. Walking on water, resurrecting little girls and grown men, multiplying loaves, healing the blind and lame and lepers, being transfigured, turning water into wine, rising from the dead, those are pretty darned supernatural occurrences. You talk of your experience (which I respect) but in my own experience, people who roll their eyes at modern miracles usually roll their eyes at ones that took place 2,000 years ago as well…There are a lot of “Thomas Jefferson Christians” out there in this skeptical age. The Enlightenment did a lot to kill Christian thinking. I think being obsessed with miracles is odd but I think mentioning them, being curious about them, and the Church using them at times to show God’s glory and ongoing love in our times is not harmful?

All I can say is I know people personally who have fallen away through incredulity, part of which is related to these apparitions and miraculous accounts which they refuse to believe and sometimes attribute to superstition. I’d say I can think of about nine people off the top of my head over my long life, and there may be more.

I don’t know anyone personally who found Christ through these same accounts. So that’s 9 - 0 in my experience.

I know there are published accounts of conversions, but I am talking about real people in everyday life that I can know and talk to.

Tales of spinning suns and Holy Fires just bring out a negative reaction in a lot of people. We see that here. I don’t make this stuff up.

I am just saying that if one argument in favor of them is that they do so much good, I just don’t see it. I think that as a false premise.

 

[Alexander_Roman]

Certainly, and I understand where you are coming from, that is positive.

In my EC church, we have a unique situation where miraculous icons are recognized by both Orthodox and EC and the argument is about ownership i.e. the EC’s have no right to this icon as the monastery where it is enshrined was taken by force and then we say the Orthodox have no right to this etc.

The famous miraculous icon of Pochaiv in western Ukraine is popular among Orthodox, EC’s and even RC’s.

And it was recognized as miraculous by Rome itself and the pope sent crowns to have it officially crowned as miraculous when it was in EC hands.

The man who spent much money to richly appoint the cathedral/lavra and shrine of Pochaiv was Count Myron Pototsky, an RC who became an EC after he experienced a miracle at Pochaiv. He is even mentioned, although not by name, in the liturgical service of the Akathist to Our Lady of Pochaiv!

He had the interior of the Church decorated in the Latin Baroque style and when the Pochaiv monastery went back into Orthodox hands, the local monastics petitioned the Holy Synod of Russia to allow them to get rid of the Baroque stuff.

The Synod simply told them to keep their hands off and leave everything alone . . .

There are also occasions when religious pictures from the West became miraculous Orthodox icons. The icon of St Seraphim which was his favourite and before which he died was, as I’ve read, from Italy.

In the Ukrainian town of “Horodyshchenske” there is a former RC monastery, now Orthodox, where the picture of Our Lady of Mt. Carmel is a miraculous Orthodox shrine of “Our Lady of the Scapular” (sic - as Prof. Poselyanin himself describes it in his Orthodox work on the Mother of God).

So, in fact, Roman Catholic shrines can not only be accepted by Orthodoxy - they can be adopted too!

This is why I said that miraculous events such as at Fatima have more to do with how the devotion has been used by Catholics, in that case, as a tool for “conversion.”

Happy Easter!

Alex

 

[GaryTaylor]

All I can say is I know people personally who have fallen away through incredulity, part of which is related to these apparitions and miraculous accounts which they refuse to believe and sometimes attribute to superstition. I’d say I can think of about nine people off the top of my head over my long life, and there may be more.

I don’t know anyone personally who found Christ through these same accounts. So that’s 9 - 0 in my experience.

I know there are published accounts of conversions, but I am talking about real people in everyday life that I can know and talk to.

Tales of spinning suns and Holy Fires just bring out a negative reaction in a lot of people. We see that here. I don’t make this stuff up.

I am just saying that if one argument in favor of them is that they do so much good, I just don’t see it. I think that as a false premise.

Without even breaking a sweat, Edith Stein converted after reading Teresa of Avila’s Interior Castle. It happens, its not uncommon for the Mystics to convert. I’m pretty positive thats the purpose of the whole concept, to win souls for God.

And you intitled to your opinion, there’s many ways of looking at it, as we see. And in the end each individual will have to make up their own mind. They are not a required belief.

I see people who come here all the time full of fire after discovering especially Fatima. Just a process of directing the energy into the church. You see the “wow” affect here all the time when it dawns on someone God really exists. Only thing is you have to reel them in from there.

From time to time I wonder just if world peace would happen if everyone prayed the rosary. Talking a 15-minute devotion with a promise of world peace. Whats there to lose? I’ve never heard a easier plan for world peace. I don’t anyone who has a plan for world peace. Here were dealing with possibilities. Is it possible? Without a doubt. God has coming here since Abraham, to see if there are a few rightous men. No reason to believe thats not exactly what happened at fatima.

There can be no denial how bad civil society has become. You see Billy Graham was quoted saying. “If God allows the USA to continue as it is, He’ll have to make amends to Sodom and Gomorrah”. Everyone knows how bad it is today.

So there’s definatly a balance to all the mystical aspect, and that balance is the church. Theres’s no denying that this is such a small percent of individuals who are somehow touched by God, that there’s no need to change any path ones on.

And if it brings on a deeper devotion, so be it, God Bless them who found something else in His Kingdom to draw them closer.

I think you guys at the EO should all pray the Rosary with us for a year! Lets see what happens. You get a full refund in nothing happens. Maybe we’ll have World Peace next year?