Eastern Orthodox Christians: Do you reject Catholic miracles and supernatural claims as false or lies?

[StevieD]

I don’t know anyone personally who found Christ through these same accounts. So that’s 9 - 0 in my experience.

.

It’s 0-6 in my experience, maybe these people giving up the faith because they don’t believe something that no one requires them to believe, just aren’t giving you the real reason.

Fatima is a big problem, not just for non-Catholics who seriously study it but for ‘progressive’ Catholics too who don’t want to believe what was claimed to have been said. The ‘miracle of the sun’ is just too well attested, and by many who were anti-Catholic at the time, to be dismissed along with the accurate predictions of two visionaries of their own deaths. I have read of Orthodox who accept the ‘miracle of the sun’ but reject the celestial origin of the apparition and say that it was diabolical. This is presumably because Fatima presents particular difficulties to Orthodox believers because of the particular mention of Russia (in 1917!) and the request for its consecration to achieve ultimate conversion. Many Orthodox take the mention of conversion to refer to conversion to the Catholic faith but that is not necessarily the case. If it is an appeal from God, they need to know and respond as well as Catholics.

Solzhenitsin mentions an apparition of Our Lady to an Orthodox monk on the Solovetsky Islands (which housed monasteries that were subsequently turned into gulags) in ‘The Gulag Archipelago’ . The monk was told that the islands would be ‘whitened with bones’ - as they subsequently were. I accept that this was probably a genuine apparition but the Orthodox can’t seem to bring themselves to accept some, of ours, where approved by the local bishop Fatima, Lourdes, Akita, etc.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

StevieD, awesome post yet again. Very interesting stuff. It shames a good boy to admit it, but I never thought of the Orthodox feeling insulted over the Fatima admonition to consecrate Russia. Never thought of that. I can see where they would feel insulted in that the Russian Orthodox most likely prayed their hearts out to consecrate Russia to Christ and pray for delivery from Communism! That miracle of the sun was pretty well-attested as you said. But my wife, Kate, is from the Philippines. She said there was this very, very popular kid in San Fernando, La Union, an area about two hours from her hometown of Baguio. This kid was believed to have spoken with the BVM and received visions and powers, etc. She said that her family took her to this place in San Fernando where the kid was told by Mary that the sun would dance up and down in a Fatima-like miracle. My wife said she stood there with tens of thousands of people in this insanely huge field. She said they all claimed to see this event and were crying and emotional and holding rosaries. She said she looked up and for hours didn’t see Jack Squat. She rolled her eyes and went home… That was probably “well-attested” by the filipinos. Who knows about this stuff?

It’s 0-6 in my experience, maybe these people giving up the faith because they don’t believe something that no one requires them to believe, just aren’t giving you the real reason.

Fatima is a big problem, not just for non-Catholics who seriously study it but for ‘progressive’ Catholics too who don’t want to believe what was claimed to have been said. The ‘miracle of the sun’ is just too well attested, and by many who were anti-Catholic at the time, to be dismissed along with the accurate predictions of two visionaries of their own deaths. I have read of Orthodox who accept the ‘miracle of the sun’ but reject the celestial origin of the apparition and say that it was diabolical. This is presumably because Fatima presents particular difficulties to Orthodox believers because of the particular mention of Russia (in 1917!) and the request for its consecration to achieve ultimate conversion. Many Orthodox take the mention of conversion to refer to conversion to the Catholic faith but that is not necessarily the case. If it is an appeal from God, they need to know and respond as well as Catholics.

Solzhenitsin mentions an apparition of Our Lady to an Orthodox monk on the Solovetsky Islands (which housed monasteries that were subsequently turned into gulags) in ‘The Gulag Archipelago’ . The monk was told that the islands would be ‘whitened with bones’ - as they subsequently were. I accept that this was probably a genuine apparition but the Orthodox can’t seem to bring themselves to accept some, of ours, where approved by the local bishop Fatima, Lourdes, Akita, etc.

 

[shaky]

There is no “new teaching of the Immaculate Conception” it pre-dates the 1400’s and was appoved at Basel in the 1430’s, then that council was rejected by the Catholic Church because of Christian attendence. Then another 400-years later its approved.

And no, one didn’t lead to the other. Thats another misconception. What lead to the Assumption and Coronation of Mary are competely different reality’s.

One has nothing to do with the other. The Immaculate Conception simply means Mary was free from sin before Jesus Christ enters Mary by Gods Blessing. And Mary being free from sin was a Blessing by God and a truth that God could not be born in a vessel which is not pure. Which here relates to the Ark, Mary being the New Ark. The fact that Mary obtains the status She does has more to do with Her obediance and consecration to God. Simply read Luke, then understand no-where does Mary fail from that point till Her death in flesh.

Salvation does not depend on this teaching. Its a Catholic teaching and required belief of the followers of the Catholic Church. Are you not a Christian? What do you believe Salvation consists of?

Again your confused, the reality of the Blessed Mother in the Catholic Church may lead one to Salvation by her intervention. But there are many in the Catholic Church who simply do not follow the devotion, but they acknowledge the teaching. I didn’t pray to Mary for decades and was raised Catholic.

Nonethless its known fact how in a mystical way we as humans cannot comprehend, The Blessed Mother has had the abilty throughout time as we know it, to bring Millions of followers to Her son.

All one need to see is look at the Blues Army and Fatima, or the Rosary in time or with the Confraternity of the Dominicans today. These followers through the intercession of the Blessed Mother have been able to regain the Vision of God in one the most difficult periods in mankind.

The victorys of Our Lady may be quiet, but they are nonetheless very real. And you can research this back into the single digit centurys with Poland and Italy and other Eastern Catholic/Orthodox churchs. The reality of Marys intercession for those who sincerely ask and pray to Her, to help them find Her Son. Is a known fact throughout the Centurys.

Theres 2500 Biographys of Mary, no-woman in the History of the World has been more venerated than the Blessed Mother. No woman has been more venerated in the Arts either. Culture, Racial and Ethnic Social and Physical barriers have no power over the Blessed Mother. All one need do is study History.

In you case it would simply be better to say “I do not understand or have the complete knowledge” than to take a foolish path and say “I do not believe” then enter into a arrogant state of mind with Blasphemies.

The problem in our time “is” how the Holy Spirit works with/through Mary. We are still learning and not fully understanding. We do know She has received much Grace and Blessings from God in our time now. Its believed through the visitations at Pontevedra of the Most Holy Trinity and the Blessed Mother and the message left to the Seer their. That the Blashemies of the Blessed Mother will not be forgiven.

Christ stated; “Have compassion on the Heart of your Most Holy Mother, covered with thorns, with which the ungrateful men pierce It at every moment, and there is no one to make an act of Reparation to remove them”

Christ went on to explain exactly what the Blasphemies are, and that they would not be forgiven in this world or the next without Pray to Mary for forgiveness.

So now you know. Should you chose not to follow Mary or ask Her for intercession? Its really not the point or deciding factor in your Salvation, through it may well come to that. What is a big is the blasphemies for no good reason.

Take it for what its worth. The Blessed Mothers reality and teachings and required belief are very much a part of the Catholic Faith, Christian history including protestant. Not long ago in 1906 Baptist Churchs in the South were praying to Mary in their Hymns, not a new concept my friend, but one promoted today by satan and the un-informed by disregarding the Blessed Mother…

God Bless, Gary

Hi Garry

I have prayed to Mary!! The Immaculate conception is a later teaching that was brought in by the Roman Church. The Orthodox Church does not recognise the immaculate conception of Mary.

Your answer is confusing! Your answer seem to be referring to the immaculate conception of Jesus Christ.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Hi Garry

I have prayed to Mary!! The Immaculate conception is a later teaching that was brought in by the Roman Church. The Orthodox Church does not recognise the immaculate conception of Mary.

Your answer is confusing! Your answer seem to be referring to the immaculate conception of Jesus Christ.

Shaky,
I have to ask: have you attended RCIA yet? The Immaculate Conception refers to the Blessed Virgin Mary, not to Christ–though, indeed, Jesus came into the world as God Incarnate and as such without sin.

See the Catechism of the Catholic Church at this link: scborromeo.org/ccc/p122a3p2.htm

The Immaculate Conception

"490 To become the mother of the Savior, Mary "was enriched by God with gifts appropriate to such a role."132 The angel Gabriel at the moment of the annunciation salutes her as “full of grace”.133 In fact, in order for Mary to be able to give the free assent of her faith to the announcement of her vocation, it was necessary that she be wholly borne by God’s grace.

491 Through the centuries the Church has become ever more aware that Mary, “full of grace” through God,134 was redeemed from the moment of her conception. That is what the dogma of the Immaculate Conception confesses, as Pope Pius IX proclaimed in 1854:

The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin.135

492 The “splendor of an entirely unique holiness” by which Mary is “enriched from the first instant of her conception” comes wholly from Christ: she is “redeemed, in a more exalted fashion, by reason of the merits of her Son”.136 The Father blessed Mary more than any other created person “in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places” and chose her “in Christ before the foundation of the world, to be holy and blameless before him in love”.137

493 The Fathers of the Eastern tradition call the Mother of God “the All-Holy” (Panagia), and celebrate her as “free from any stain of sin, as though fashioned by the Holy Spirit and formed as a new creature”.138 By the grace of God Mary remained free of every personal sin her whole life long."

Peace,
Anna

 

[StevieD]

StevieD, awesome post yet again. Very interesting stuff. It shames a good boy to admit it, but I never thought of the Orthodox feeling insulted over the Fatima admonition to consecrate Russia. Never thought of that. I can see where they would feel insulted in that the Russian Orthodox most likely prayed their hearts out to consecrate Russia to Christ and pray for delivery from Communism! That miracle of the sun was pretty well-attested as you said. But my wife, Kate, is from the Philippines. She said there was this very, very popular kid in San Fernando, La Union, an area about two hours from her hometown of Baguio. This kid was believed to have spoken with the BVM and received visions and powers, etc. She said that her family took her to this place in San Fernando where the kid was told by Mary that the sun would dance up and down in a Fatima-like miracle. My wife said she stood there with tens of thousands of people in this insanely huge field. She said they all claimed to see this event and were crying and emotional and holding rosaries. She said she looked up and for hours didn’t see Jack Squat. She rolled her eyes and went home… That was probably “well-attested” by the filipinos. Who knows about this stuff?

Thanks for your kind words. The Philippines experience is not really a good comparison at Fatima, anti-Catholic journalists, police and others admitted that they had witnessed the Fatima miracle - they weren’t expecting anything, as well as thousands of others in a 12 mile radius who knew nothing of the events at the Cova. There are also photos of the event. I have yet to read of anyone at the Cova on 13 Oct 1917 who did not witness the miracle. Add to this the accurate predictions of their own deaths by Jacinta and Francisco and this becomes very different. There are dozens of false claimants to apparitions, that’s just Satan muddying the waters and confusing the faithful, there will always be greedy attention seekers in the world and Satan loves using them.

 

[Hesychios]

But the only irony about your statement I see is that you’re trying to appeal to skeptics through reason alone.

You have to talk to the unfaithful at a level they are willing to listen. There is nothing wrong with reasoning out an argument, that is normal. It’ not a good ideas to invent doctrine while you’re doing it.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Hi Garry

I have prayed to Mary!! The Immaculate conception is a later teaching that was brought in by the Roman Church. The Orthodox Church does not recognise the immaculate conception of Mary.

Your answer is confusing! Your answer seem to be referring to the immaculate conception of Jesus Christ.

As pointed out theres a misconception here between the Incarnate which btw “ALL” Christians believe in. “if” they are indeed Christians. In short the Word became Flesh. As Anna pointed out one has nothing to do with the other in regards to the Immaculate Conception. Not that Theotokos wasn’t the God-Bearer. And has no relation to the Word becoming Flesh, we view this Blessing from God differently. The information I gave in regards to this, is spot on and you can google it and read it. If I was confusing in some regard by my dialogue, for that I am truly sorry.

As far as the orthodox church and its members here who I have a great deal of respect for. Not that I won’t agrue with them for time to time. But I also am quick to make amends if we should go over board in our debates. I find no fault with these guys. I just personally believe we have much bigger fish to fry with Islam and world issues, to focus on what seperates two sister churchs in history. These churchs grew apart naturally in history and time. No different than two people born in any two different cultures.

Nonetheless, Most Orthodox reject the dogma of the Immaculate Conception as unnecessary. Because Orthodoxy does not see ancestral sin as an inheritance of guilt or a stain, there is no reason for the miraculous removal of either. Nonetheless, Orthodox tradition does hold that the Theotokos remained free of personal sin, a belief shared with some reformers such as Martin Luther.

So here while you see the difference you also see the similarities. I agree with Anna that theres a lack of basic understanding on not only the Catholic/Orthodox faiths, but Christian faith is general. And I don’t say that to upset you or create ill feelings. Just to point out if you are not understanding of something simply ask. There is no-one posting on this particular thread who won’t go out of there way in charity to reach out with you. All on here I have talked at length with many times. And while we don’t agree on everthing as you see here, we do respect each others belief and opinion.

We are all standing at the threshold of a very difficult time/period. And its the open conversation in the end that will allow Christianity to go forward and not become enslaved by some prevelant growing evil promoted as the Truth. Don’t mistake our trivial debates for missing the bigger picture unfolding in the world before our eyes.

God Bless, Gary

 

[Alexander_Roman]

Hi Garry

I have prayed to Mary!! The Immaculate conception is a later teaching that was brought in by the Roman Church. The Orthodox Church does not recognise the immaculate conception of Mary.

Your answer is confusing! Your answer seem to be referring to the immaculate conception of Jesus Christ.

Dear shaky,

The Orthodox Church does not accept the Latin dogma of the Immaculate Conception. This does NOT mean it believes that the Mother of God ever had a “stain” of any kind of sin on her soul, however. The Orthodox Church celebrates the Conception of St Anne on December 9/22 and glorifies the Theotokos as “All Holy” and “Ever Holy.”

In fact, there was a time when Roman Catholics, including saints, could say that our Lady had the stain of Original Sin. That NEVER occurred in the East and it was never an issue - the Mother of God simply had no sin.

Alex

 

[Alexander_Roman]

As pointed out theres a misconception here between the Incarnate which btw “ALL” Christians believe in. “if” they are indeed Christians. In short the Word became Flesh. As Anna pointed out one has nothing to do with the other in regards to the Immaculate Conception. Not that Theotokos wasn’t the God-Bearer. And has no relation to the Word becoming Flesh, we view this Blessing from God differently. The information I gave in regards to this, is spot on and you can google it and read it. If I was confusing in some regard by my dialogue, for that I am truly sorry.

As far as the orthodox church and its members here who I have a great deal of respect for. Not that I won’t agrue with them for time to time. But I also am quick to make amends if we should go over board in our debates. I find no fault with these guys. I just personally believe we have much bigger fish to fry with Islam and world issues, to focus on what seperates two sister churchs in history. These churchs grew apart naturally in history and time. No different than two people born in any two different cultures.

Nonetheless, Most Orthodox reject the dogma of the Immaculate Conception as unnecessary. Because Orthodoxy does not see ancestral sin as an inheritance of guilt or a stain, there is no reason for the miraculous removal of either. Nonetheless, Orthodox tradition does hold that the Theotokos remained free of personal sin, a belief shared with some reformers such as Martin Luther.

So here while you see the difference you also see the similarities. I agree with Anna that theres a lack of basic understanding on not only the Catholic/Orthodox faiths, but Christian faith is general. And I don’t say that to upset you or create ill feelings. Just to point out if you are not understanding of something simply ask. There is no-one posting on this particular thread who won’t go out of there way in charity to reach out with you. All on here I have talked at length with many times. And while we don’t agree on everthing as you see here, we do respect each others belief and opinion.

We are all standing at the threshold of a very difficult time/period. And its the open conversation in the end that will allow Christianity to go forward and not become enslaved by some prevelant growing evil promoted as the Truth. Don’t mistake our trivial debates for missing the bigger picture unfolding in the world before our eyes.

God Bless, Gary

Dear Gary,

Great points! One could also add that the Orthodox emphasize the dynamic Theosis/Divinization of the Mother of God which continues even in heaven. Thus, at her Conception (and the East was the first to establish this feast) she is glorified by Orthodoxy as the highest of the Saints and, since it is her Conception that is being liturgically feted, the “lex orandi” affirms she was sanctified at her Conception. This is actually a “higher” Mariology and one that goes beyond the limitations of an Augustinian view that the West has laboured under, especially throughout the Reformation.

Alex

 

[Alexander_Roman]

Without even breaking a sweat, Edith Stein converted after reading Teresa of Avila’s Interior Castle. It happens, its not uncommon for the Mystics to convert. I’m pretty positive thats the purpose of the whole concept, to win souls for God.

And you intitled to your opinion, there’s many ways of looking at it, as we see. And in the end each individual will have to make up their own mind. They are not a required belief.

I see people who come here all the time full of fire after discovering especially Fatima. Just a process of directing the energy into the church. You see the “wow” affect here all the time when it dawns on someone God really exists. Only thing is you have to reel them in from there.

From time to time I wonder just if world peace would happen if everyone prayed the rosary. Talking a 15-minute devotion with a promise of world peace. Whats there to lose? I’ve never heard a easier plan for world peace. I don’t anyone who has a plan for world peace. Here were dealing with possibilities. Is it possible? Without a doubt. God has coming here since Abraham, to see if there are a few rightous men. No reason to believe thats not exactly what happened at fatima.

There can be no denial how bad civil society has become. You see Billy Graham was quoted saying. “If God allows the USA to continue as it is, He’ll have to make amends to Sodom and Gomorrah”. Everyone knows how bad it is today.

So there’s definatly a balance to all the mystical aspect, and that balance is the church. Theres’s no denying that this is such a small percent of individuals who are somehow touched by God, that there’s no need to change any path ones on.

And if it brings on a deeper devotion, so be it, God Bless them who found something else in His Kingdom to draw them closer.

I think you guys at the EO should all pray the Rosary with us for a year! Lets see what happens. You get a full refund in nothing happens. Maybe we’ll have World Peace next year?

In actual fact, the Orthodox Church has the Rule of prayer of the Theotokos which is 15 decades of Hail Mary’s in honour of 15 events in the life of Christ and our Lady. St Seraphim of Sarov promoted it widely and said it was revealed to a monastic in the Thebaid in the 8th century. It is popular throughout Russia and especially in Orthodox monasteries today. The EO have been praying the rosary for a very long time!

And they have their own Marian apparitions and revelations which can resemble those of Fatima.

Again, Roman Catholics would not be asked to acknowledge miracles and apparitions outside their Church. I don’t see why we SEEM to be trying to get the Orthodox to acknowledge apparitions and miraculous events within the RC Church.

The fact that the Orthodox won’t (although individual Orthodox may) simply speaks to the fact that the Orthodox Church confesses ignorance as to what is outside the true Church which it affirms it is.

I think we should leave it alone.

Alex

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Who proposed inventing doctrine while engaging atheists?

You have to talk to the unfaithful at a level they are willing to listen. There is nothing wrong with reasoning out an argument, that is normal. It’ not a good ideas to invent doctrine while you’re doing it.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Fatima is a big problem, not just for non-Catholics who seriously study it but for ‘progressive’ Catholics too who don’t want to believe what was claimed to have been said. The ‘miracle of the sun’ is just too well attested, and by many who were anti-Catholic at the time, to be dismissed along with the accurate predictions of two visionaries of their own deaths. I have read of Orthodox who accept the ‘miracle of the sun’ but reject the celestial origin of the apparition and say that it was diabolical. This is presumably because Fatima presents particular difficulties to Orthodox believers because of the particular mention of Russia (in 1917!) and the request for its consecration to achieve ultimate conversion. Many Orthodox take the mention of conversion to refer to conversion to the Catholic faith but that is not necessarily the case. If it is an appeal from God, they need to know and respond as well as Catholics.

Exactly Steve, and this is the root of the issue. Should we look at this realistically. What harm would it do to have every single Bishop of the Church get together at St.Peters Square with the Pope and consecrate Russia exactly as it was instructed. Have their been attemps to do this? Sure, yet its not been done exactly as instructed. To add to the fact every single catholic bishop world wide except “three” have expressed and interest in doing exactly this and would be willing when-ever this could arranged to attend.

The problem is the relationship between the Russian Orthodox/Catholic Church. And the ultimate result becomes the loss of many Souls. We don’t even know how bad this can become. We do know had they listened to the warning and done exactly as instructed we would be given a promised period of peace which is also predicted in Scripture by Isaiah. Then talked about by the Blessed Mother at Fatima as a promise for consecrating Russia.

There isn’t a Miracle which has happened on Earth more miraculous than the Dancing of the Sun and its well documented, to downplay it doesn’t distract from its Truth. Whats even more facinating is it was predicted before hand than happened on the exact day predicted by the Seers. Thats never happen in History thats just how phenominal that was. Whos ever seen the Sun spin and a High speed and shoot out a rainbow of colors? Then begin to dance in the sky off off its axis? Then be thrown down to earth, with the fear iminate death by all who witnessed. Documnated by Scholars and Journalists who disblieved anything could happen. No it wasn’t a little fire in the sky. It was event never before witnessed by man, nor seen again by man, nor has it been explained by man. Because its a miracle from God.

To further complicate the issue you have the words left by the Blessed Mother which confirms in the end my Immaculate Heart will triumph. So all this is going to happen regardless. The price will be mankind and the loss of Souls and nations which is un-needed.

When you come right down to it, its a very small devotion she asked for. To pray the Rosary and attend the first five Saturday Mass with Confession? And in return is a promise of eternal salvation, not only by the Blessed Mother but confirmed by Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit, then confirmed by the Miracle of the Sun? The Reparation of the First Saturday Mass has been a devotion way before Fatima. At Fatima Christ reduced the devotion to the First 5-Saturdays. With a hope more will actually take the message serious and involve themselves with the truth for the right purpose, instead of attaining a promise by Him.

Its just as Seer said, she told the Blessed Mother I wish I could have done more for you, And Mary replied “If you only knew how much more I wanted to do for mankind.”

Nonetheless we are just going to tuff this out, and those who follow the devotion will be the mass of souls which reverberate through the Heavens. How much or little is it? Only time will tell.

But this isn’t going to go on like this is especially here in the USA. Don’t think this can’t be lost, no Empire has lasted in history. And the evil ones are completely destroyed. The fact that this country has been given a pass by God doesn’t mean he’ll accept this lifestyle here. It just means we were granted a period to get our act together. Billionaires make and lose their fortunes daily. The idea that this country can’t fail totally is not beyond comprehension. And then add the surrounding problems of Israel to the equation and an Iran backed by Russia and we have a serious problem. So yes I do believe we should have consecrated Russia with every Bishop world wide, matter of fact WEEKLY if need be. Do they all have something better to do than bring about World Peace? Especially since Russia is a key piece of the puzzle in the middle-east aligned with a Nut in Iran?

I see no sense in even placing the facts under a micoscope, it was said by God, so imo it just should be done. The fact the the prophets have been laughed at, disbelieved, and ridiculed since day one is not a big mystery.

Babylons King was having an orgy, as one of the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World fell. They never even seen it coming or fought back. “You have been weighed in the balance and found wanting” [Daniel] Those were the words written on the wall by God as the Kingdom fell.

Church devotion is fine and needed, point is God said do this, and is still waiting for man to listen.

Those who read the Third Secret also claim Akita is the same basic message. Thas why it was approved so fast. Those in Akita could not have read the Fatima message. So in 73 the message is repeated.

God Bless, Gary

 

[GaryTaylor]

In actual fact, the Orthodox Church has the Rule of prayer of the Theotokos which is 15 decades of Hail Mary’s in honour of 15 events in the life of Christ and our Lady. St Seraphim of Sarov promoted it widely and said it was revealed to a monastic in the Thebaid in the 8th century. It is popular throughout Russia and especially in Orthodox monasteries today. The EO have been praying the rosary for a very long time!

And they have their own Marian apparitions and revelations which can resemble those of Fatima.

Again, Roman Catholics would not be asked to acknowledge miracles and apparitions outside their Church. I don’t see why we SEEM to be trying to get the Orthodox to acknowledge apparitions and miraculous events within the RC Church.

The fact that the Orthodox won’t (although individual Orthodox may) simply speaks to the fact that the Orthodox Church confesses ignorance as to what is outside the true Church which it affirms it is.

I think we should leave it alone.

Alex

What do they have to resemble Fatima? When did that happen? There is NOTHING else that happened like Fatima in History. Nothing!

I understand all this, Roman Catholic’s are also not calling the EO miracle’s diabolical:shrug:

The simple truth is, God came into real time at Fatima, its not a Catholic message, it just happened at Fatima. The truth is its for all of Gods children. The idea of trying to have anyone believe some pius devotion which is totally uneeded for World Salvation is simply not the case. Do you honestly believe I would be promoting a devotion which I didn’t believe would have major impact on the entire world? I’m not here talking Brown Scaplars and Miraculous medals. I’m talking an event which nothing of the likes ever happened in record History. Do you know of a similiar one of this magnitude?

I’m talking GOD in real time here, predicted in advance, then it happen as scheduled? Is our God not the same GOD of the EO? You wouldn’t know it would you? Is the message of World peace only for Catholics? I acknowledge the apparitions of Zeitoun as just as significant. Those are EO. BUt no message was given with instructions, a bit different? But I don’t petty feelings about playing for the Blue or Red team. I’m on Gods team.

God Bless, Gary

 

[Harpazo]

The Orthodox do not accept the claims of the papal church’s apparitions anymore than we accept its claims about its other teachings. It simply doesn’t matter to us. I don’t know if I can make it any clearer. We have our own salvation to work out that we don’t spend time analyzing and debating supposed miracles in other churches. There are more pressing matters.

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[GaryTaylor]

The Orthodox do not accept the claims of the papal church’s apparitions anymore than we accept its claims about its other teachings. It simply doesn’t matter to us. I don’t know if I can make it any clearer. We have our own salvation to work out that we don’t spend time analyzing and debating supposed miracles in other churches. There are more pressing matters.

In Christ,
Andrew

Really what more pressing matters do you have than World Peace and the salvation of Souls for God?

God Bless, Gary

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

“Papal church?” Andrew? Please at least do Catholics the courtesy of calling it “The Catholic Church.” No Catholics in here call your Church anything less than The Orthodox Church. Many call it “Holy Orthodoxy” a name I’m fine with. This seems highly discourteous to Catholics just like calling Catholics “papists.”

If you don’t like the thread topic that I started Andrew, don’t post on it?

The Orthodox do not accept the claims of the papal church’s apparitions anymore than we accept its claims about its other teachings. It simply doesn’t matter to us. I don’t know if I can make it any clearer. We have our own salvation to work out that we don’t spend time analyzing and debating supposed miracles in other churches. There are more pressing matters.

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Amen, Gary. It’s amazing how some folks, when they don’t like the topic, criticize priorities instead of starting their own thread that they would find more relevent. How can something like Fatima or the miracles of Padre Pio be just thrown off to the wind? Aren’t supernatural occurrences relevent by virtue of the fact that RELIGION ITSELF IS SUPERNATURAL! IMO when we reduce religion to merely intellectual quandries and historical conciliar bickering, THAT is when we’ve become irrelevent in our discussions. Religion has theological, soteriological, and metaphysical dimensions that are worth discussing. As you said, Fatima has significance that is worth hashing over. IMO so do many other supernatural events, Orthodox AND Catholic. Religion has a faith element, not just an intellectual dimension…

Realy what more pressing matters do you have than World Peace and the salvation of Souls for God?

God Bless, Gary

 

[Alexander_Roman]

What do they have to resemble Fatima? When did that happen? There is NOTHING else that happened like Fatima in History. Nothing!

I understand all this, Roman Catholic’s are also not calling the EO miracle’s diabolical:shrug:

The simple truth is, God came into real time at Fatima, its not a Catholic message, it just happened at Fatima. The truth is its for all of Gods children. The idea of trying to have anyone believe some pius devotion which is totally uneeded for World Salvation is simply not the case. Do you honestly believe I would be promoting a devotion which I didn’t believe would have major impact on the entire world? I’m not here talking Brown Scaplars and Miraculous medals. I’m talking an event which nothing of the likes ever happened in record History. Do you know of a similiar one of this magnitude?

I’m talking GOD in real time here, predicted in advance, then it happen as scheduled? Is our God not the same GOD of the EO? You wouldn’t know it would you? Is the message of World peace only for Catholics? I acknowledge the apparitions of Zeitoun as just as significant. Those are EO. BUt no message was given with instructions, a bit different? But I don’t petty feelings about playing for the Blue or Red team. I’m on Gods team.

God Bless, Gary

Well, Catholics can and do reject Fatima and are still in good standing. When Pope John Paul II issued his letter on the Rosary, he chose not to include the Fatima prayer etc.

The Brown Scapular truly IS a central part of the message of Fatima.

There are Orthodox Marian revelations that talk about the end-times and about instructions. It is just that we Catholics aren’t familiar with them. St Seraphim of Sarov wrote down such instructions which he said were given him directly from the Mother of God, prayers etc.

It is just that such events are understood differently in the Eastern Churches. They are seen as being the encouragement of the Mother of God to live the liturgical life of the Church, the Body of Christ through prayer, liturgical prayer, fasting, Communion, charitable works, true repentance etc.

Is the message of Our Lady of Fatima different? Does it say something that Catholics have not been taught by the Holy Church from time immemorial? Repentance, reparation, dedication to her in the Scapular and the Rosary. All this is also in the Orthodox Marian tradition and the more than 1,000 + miraculous icons honoured in Russia alone together with her appearances at Pochaiv, Constantinople, Moscow, Kiev, throughout Greece, Jerusalem etc.

If Fatima is as you say, and I believe it is, there doesn’t seem to be same sense of urgency about it in the mainstream Catholic Church or at Rome.

There is the feast of Our Lady of Fatima, just as there is the Feast of Our Lady of Tender-Feeling and Zeitoun etc.

There is no ecclesial proscription against those who reject the messages/meanings of any such apparitions. I think Christians could benefit spiritually from them all.

But simply because the Marian miraculous apparitions aren’t given as widespread attention as Fatima is no reason for “Fatima triumphalism.”

What Our Lady said at Fatima, she says to the Orthodox. And at Medjugorje, Our Lady was reported as saying that the place where she will be glorified the most will be . . . in Russia.

Alex

 

[Alexander_Roman]

Really what more pressing matters do you have than World Peace and the salvation of Souls for God?

God Bless, Gary

I think that if Catholics promoted the message of Fatima among North American Catholics with their liberalizing tendencies (including NA bishops), that would be an amazing feat of grace!

The Orthodox are doing very well in their devotion to the Most Holy Mother of God etc.

Alex

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Come to my parish where the Portuguese talk about Fatima 24/7 365 days a year and we have an enormous Fatima parade devoted to Our Lady with days of feshtas and Marian devotion, you wouldn’t question if it’s promoted in North America! All of Tulare Country and Central California for that matter is Portuguese-dominated with heaps and heaps of Fatima devotion!

I think that if Catholics promoted the message of Fatima among North American Catholics
Alex