Eastern Orthodox

[dzheremi]

The OO have had a different experience, and a different socio-historical dynamic. The centralizing force for the OO was not a head bishop or a secular ruler, but the natural insular and conservative attitudes that result from being a subjugated people under an outside power. Even the worst situations can be used by God for the benefit of those who love Him.

This might be the case in Egypt and among the Syrians, but what of the other OO? You can’t seriously be suggesting that the Armenians or Ethiopians (the two earliest Christian kingdoms in the world) had this experience, or that they only became conservative as a result of the work of outside powers. They were officially Christian, by the action and support of the king’s court!

As societies become more democratic, the concept and need of central Church leadership will become more obvious to our Orthodox brethren.

How do you figure? What do secular politics have to do with ecclesiology? Finland has had its own Orthodox church for about as long as it has been independent, and it is a democracy. Granted, it’s a rather small church, but I still don’t see anyone from it begging that the Finnish Orthodox elect a Pope or submit to the Pope of Rome. I don’t think you’re making very much sense, Mardukm. Please, leave some room for the work of the Holy Spirit. Not everything is the result of politics.

 

[JesusforMadrid]

Sometimes I wonder about that argument the Orthodox make that in many ways Catholics and Protestants are two sides of the same coin.

I went to a funeral today for a dear co-teacher of mine who died of cancer last week. Diane was a very special teacher and her funeral was very well-attended. Anyway, the music at this service wasn’t that far off from what I heard at the 5:30pm Vigil Mass this afternoon.

After going to the Serbian Orthodox Divine Liturgy, standing for 1.5 hours, keeping up with the high-speed chanted liturgy/theophanies, and all the incense and ritual, the Mass felt like a walk in the park!

Listening to the “once saved, always saved” sermon of that Baptist pastor made me squirm in my seat and my eyebrows curled as I almost lost consciousness…

Gurney,
I wondered when you would explore Orthodoxy. Given your stated concerns about purgatory, Papal infallibility, and indulgences (I hope I am getting that right), I thought Orthodoxy would be a natural choice for you. I have similar concerns.

I have been attending an Orthodox Church (ROCOR) for the past 6 months. I first came for the theology, having been attracted to their focus on and respect for the Early Church Fathers. What surprised me was how much I have grown to love the Eastern liturgy, especially Russian singing; anything less than 2 hours standing listening to those sublime chants now seems unfulfilling.

I love the priest and his wife as well. His being married seems, in his case, an advantage in being able to understand my own situation.

Many blessings to you. Your posts have often helped me to clarify my own thinking.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Jesus, I am HONORED that you would pay me such a kind compliment, brother. I’m not sure I’m worthy of it but I’ll strive to be…

I’m definitely where you are, on a religious journey, a quest to find the Truth ecclesiastically. I feel a great deal of pressure to get things right because my decisions not only impact my wife and I but also our three children. I have a 5, 4, and 3 year old. Two boys and a girl. It’s a long, tiring process trying to seek the Truth.

I’m glad you’re enjoying the ROCOR liturgy. I haven’t experienced nearly as much of Orthodoxy as you have. I have only been to ONE Divine Liturgy, at the Serbian Orthodox about an hour’s drive from here. In fact, I went with another poster here at CAF! He has been a good friend to me, patient also. I tend to really mentally debate theological ideas around, read both sides, and try to be intellectually honest. That can tick off both sides sometimes if I’m not careful! I tend to do that in politics also. Being very independent, both my Republican and Democratic friends can get fed up with me fast!

I think there’s a lot of psychological dimensions to religion that I never expected, an emotional, sentimental side. For example, when I went to the Orthodox DL, I missed seeing those stations of the cross, the holy water font, the regular crucifix, the kneelers, etc. But when I was at Mass yesterday, I missed the incense already, the piety, the mystique of the DL…

I also hate to admit it, but there is a personality aspect as well. The Catholic clergy in my entire area are really bland, pastoral care is abysmal, confession really lacks that spiritual father aspect I’ve heard that Orthodoxy nurtures in the individual, and I think the overall way the Church handles things around here isn’t right. For example, in the Catholic Church around here, they require two years of classes for the kids and the parents in catechism for first communion. They also require you to not miss ANY Masses. They actually have a priest sign off this paper to prove you were at Mass. Either that or they scan the barcode on your donation envelopes to see if you were there. If you go out of town to Mass elsewhere, you’re required to bring a bulletin from them proving you were there. I find this too bizarre and big brother. Then, here’s the kicker, to get Confirmed in the CC here, you have to go THREE YEARS in high school to catechism/theology classes regularly, attend like 3 or 4 retreats up in the foothills, and you have to do something like 45 hours of community service.

The Orthodox don’t look at the Sacraments as something you have to earn. They are Christ’s gifts to us. When you’re ready, you obtain them. They give the Sacrament to children ASAP. I agree with that. And I LOVE the idea of chrismation over the years and years of having to “earn” the Eucharist and Confirmation. It’s too forced, artificial, weird, and unfair. It also turns off teens. As a teenager, I skipped the whole thing because it turned me off. As a 19 year old, I went to RCIA when the Holy Spirit convicted me to start seeking the Lord. Maybe I would’ve done it as a teen if they hadn’t had the hoops and ladders? The Sacraments should be available, not withheld so much after a gauntlet of proving oneself…

I envy you in your love for standing. In the 1.5 hour liturgy, I sat down for about 20 minutes of it. I have a serious foot condition, planter faciaitis, borderline candidate for surgery so I can’t stand for too long but I hate people around me thinking I’m a deadbeat!

Gurney,
I wondered when you would explore Orthodoxy. Given your stated concerns about purgatory, Papal infallibility, and indulgences (I hope I am getting that right), I thought Orthodoxy would be a natural choice for you. I have similar concerns.

I have been attending an Orthodox Church (ROCOR) for the past 6 months. I first came for the theology, having been attracted to their focus on and respect for the Early Church Fathers. What surprised me was how much I have grown to love the Eastern liturgy, especially Russian singing; anything less than 2 hours standing listening to those sublime chants now seems unfulfilling.

I love the priest and his wife as well. His being married seems, in his case, an advantage in being able to understand my own situation.

Many blessings to you. Your posts have often helped me to clarify my own thinking.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I agree with all of this. Now I’ll duck in case I get another Jeremy IED launched at me like the other day…

This might be the case in Egypt and among the Syrians, but what of the other OO? You can’t seriously be suggesting that the Armenians or Ethiopians (the two earliest Christian kingdoms in the world) had this experience, or that they only became conservative as a result of the work of outside powers. They were officially Christian, by the action and support of the king’s court!

How do you figure? What do secular politics have to do with ecclesiology? Finland has had its own Orthodox church for about as long as it has been independent, and it is a democracy. Granted, it’s a rather small church, but I still don’t see anyone from it begging that the Finnish Orthodox elect a Pope or submit to the Pope of Rome. I don’t think you’re making very much sense, Mardukm. Please, leave some room for the work of the Holy Spirit. Not everything is the result of politics.

 

[JohnnyReb]

Gurney,
I wondered when you would explore Orthodoxy. Given your stated concerns about purgatory, Papal infallibility, and indulgences (I hope I am getting that right), I thought Orthodoxy would be a natural choice for you. I have similar concerns.

I have been attending an Orthodox Church (ROCOR) for the past 6 months. I first came for the theology, having been attracted to their focus on and respect for the Early Church Fathers. What surprised me was how much I have grown to love the Eastern liturgy, especially Russian singing; anything less than 2 hours standing listening to those sublime chants now seems unfulfilling.

I love the priest and his wife as well. His being married seems, in his case, an advantage in being able to understand my own situation.

Many blessings to you. Your posts have often helped me to clarify my own thinking.

May I ask you a question, or a few? Are you inquiring about the Orthodox faith right now? Is there a program at that parish for seekers? Where are you at with those things?

I currently have been attending an Anglican parish right now, and I love the people there, but at times I don’t feel connected. The priest is an excellent speaker, but theologically there seems to be too much reformed Protestant or at least low church Protestant influence. The parish has been really good to me, I’m not sure if I can leave because I feel such a sense of loving community there.

I am itching to try out Orthodoxy. I have read a couple of books but that is not enough. I want to find a way to learn about the faith. I know right now, I my knowledge is lacking, but I have similar concerns with Gurney about Catholicism.

What similarities and differences are you noticing between Orthodoxy and Anglican Christianity?

 

[dzheremi]

They also require you to not miss ANY Masses. They actually have a priest sign off this paper to prove you were at Mass. Either that or they scan the barcode on your donation envelopes to see if you were there. If you go out of town to Mass elsewhere, you’re required to bring a bulletin from them proving you were there.

Wow, really?! This reminds me a lot more of my father’s experience in the INC cult than my own experience in Catholicism. I would be deeply concerned for the spiritual welfare of any person subjected to such a system.

Then, here’s the kicker, to get Confirmed in the CC here, you have to go THREE YEARS in high school to catechism/theology classes regularly, attend like 3 or 4 retreats up in the foothills, and you have to do something like 45 hours of community service.

What’s the rationale behind the community service? I’m not against it, I’ve just never heard of that.

I envy you in your love for standing. In the 1.5 hour liturgy, I sat down for about 20 minutes of it. I have a serious foot condition, planter faciaitis, borderline candidate for surgery so I can’t stand for too long but I hate people around me thinking I’m a deadbeat!

I don’t know how it is with the Serbians, but I asked my (British) Coptic Orthodox priest friend about this (because I would also have trouble standing during the whole 2-3 hours of the standard Coptic liturgy, to say nothing of special occasions which can get downright nutty…overnight services from dusk to dawn), and he said it wouldn’t be a problem. There are generally enough people of the appropriate age or otherwise infirm that no one looks twice at seeing people seated along the wall (where they have benches set up for those who need them). From my previous experience with the local OCA, they seem to take a similar attitude, and their church is laid out similarly.

The advice I was given (and I think it works for basically everything a newcomer could worry about) is that there is so much going on during the liturgy that no one will be watching you in the first place, and if they are, it will probably be to help you out if you’re obviously new. A friend of mine in the Coptic church jokes about being her church’s assigned “white person handler” or whatever you’d call it…helping new people (of all colors) through their first liturgy and explaining a lot about the church to curious onlookers. It’s a shame I can’t take her with me to Albuquerque this fall, as I’ve recently learned that their Coptic community meets at an individual’s home and consists of about 6 families!

Watch for culture shock, coming to my posts this August…

 

[dzheremi]

I agree with all of this. Now I’ll duck in case I get another Jeremy IED launched at me like the other day…

Once again, I do apologize profusely for that. That topic is definitely one of my “buttons”, but even so that’s no excuse to react as I did. I’m sorry. As you can see, I’ve since replaced that line in my signature with something a little more edifying and less likely to cause me to flip out…

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Well I’ll just say, though I know you’re asking Jesus, that what Orthodoxy and Anglicanism have in common are smaller communities and thus more fellowship, coffee hours, food festivals, and theological studies, etc. There is more togetherness in Anglicanism and Orthodoxy than in all the Catholic churches in my whole diocese. So fellowship seems strong in them both. Also obviously the idea of following the councils and be able to press on without the papal central authority. Also, the adapted English translation of the divine liturgy sounds similar to Anglicanism “at times.”

But otherwise, they seem to be different universes. My Anglican parish, that is really middle-of-the-road between Catholicism and Protestantism, is light years from the Orthodox Divine Liturgy I attended. The Orthodox are extremely ritualistic, lots of crossing oneself, kissing and adoring icons, kissing the cross as the DL comes to a close, the incense, the standing instead of sitting, and the preaching didn’t seem up to par with Anglicanism.

The priests in both are married and have wives and kids, and the community is pretty tight-knit in both.

But Anglicans focus more on Bible studies, unpacking scripture, and obviously in one group C.S. Lewis and JI Packer are the heroes, in the other Kallistos Ware, John Meyendorff, and Maximos the Confessor are the chiefs literary fair…

I felt a LOT more at home with Anglicanism, but then again I grew up “in the West” spiritually. It didn’t take ANY getting used-to for me as a former Catholic to go Anglican. I would imagine it could take months to a year or more to adapt to Orthodoxy. I’m so so Western-minded…

May I ask you a question, or a few? Are you inquiring about the Orthodox faith right now? Is there a program at that parish for seekers? Where are you at with those things?

I currently have been attending an Anglican parish right now, and I love the people there, but at times I don’t feel connected. The priest is an excellent speaker, but theologically there seems to be too much reformed Protestant or at least low church Protestant influence. The parish has been really good to me, I’m not sure if I can leave because I feel such a sense of loving community there.

I am itching to try out Orthodoxy. I have read a couple of books but that is not enough. I want to find a way to learn about the faith. I know right now, I my knowledge is lacking, but I have similar concerns with Gurney about Catholicism.

What similarities and differences are you noticing between Orthodoxy and Anglican Christianity?

 

[JesusforMadrid]

The Orthodox don’t look at the Sacraments as something you have to earn. They are Christ’s gifts to us. When you’re ready, you obtain them. They give the Sacrament to children ASAP. I agree with that. And I LOVE the idea of chrismation over the years and years of having to “earn” the Eucharist and Confirmation. It’s too forced, artificial, weird, and unfair. It also turns off teens. As a teenager, I skipped the whole thing because it turned me off. As a 19 year old, I went to RCIA when the Holy Spirit convicted me to start seeking the Lord. Maybe I would’ve done it as a teen if they hadn’t had the hoops and ladders? The Sacraments should be available, not withheld so much after a gauntlet of proving oneself…

I envy you in your love for standing. In the 1.5 hour liturgy, I sat down for about 20 minutes of it. I have a serious foot condition, planter faciaitis, borderline candidate for surgery so I can’t stand for too long but I hate people around me thinking I’m a deadbeat!

Interesting. I’ve got three kids as well: 7,5 and 3 years old.They have already made lots of Orthodox friends–mostly cute Russian girls. The parish tradition is that all the kids commune first, starting with the babies. My oldest, who hasn’t yet had RC first communion, was asking about when he could approach the chalice. Clearly, my RC wife and I have got some important decisions to make in the future. Lord have mercy! We are thankful for how God has blessed us thus far.

As for standing for long periods, I remember my first DL and it was torture. I had to sit after a while. Met. Ware recommends that one attend DL for at least 4 weeks in order to really appreciate it. After a few weeks, you won’t even think about the standing. When the 4th C. liturgy of St. John Chrisostom advises us to “stand upright”, we are reminded that even our posture can harken back to the Early Church.

Actually, sometimes it feels akin to standing at a rock concert. I also think it can be an incredibly charismatic experience to stand for the Orthodox DL.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I tried to IM you, Jesus, but couldn’t? You’re not set up for it? Anyway, I had thought you were Catholic, not Anglican? I also didn’t know you were looking into Orthodoxy. Interesting! Apparently you feel the same pressure I do with having kids and all!

Interesting. I’ve got three kids as well: 7,5 and 3 years old.They have already made lots of Orthodox friends–mostly cute Russian girls. The parish tradition is that all the kids commune first, starting with the babies. My oldest, who hasn’t yet had RC first communion, was asking about when he could approach the chalice. Clearly, my RC wife and I have got some important decisions to make in the future. Lord have mercy! We are thankful for how God has blessed us thus far.

As for standing for long periods, I remember my first DL and it was torture. I had to sit after a while. Met. Ware recommends that one attend DL for at least 4 weeks in order to really appreciate it. After a few weeks, you won’t even think about the standing. When the 4th C. liturgy of St. John Chrisostom advises us to “stand upright”, we are reminded that even our posture can harken back to the Early Church.

Actually, sometimes it feels akin to standing at a rock concert. I also think it can be an incredibly charismatic experience to stand for the Orthodox DL.

 

[Bluegoat]

May I ask you a question, or a few? Are you inquiring about the Orthodox faith right now? Is there a program at that parish for seekers? Where are you at with those things?

I currently have been attending an Anglican parish right now, and I love the people there, but at times I don’t feel connected. The priest is an excellent speaker, but theologically there seems to be too much reformed Protestant or at least low church Protestant influence. The parish has been really good to me, I’m not sure if I can leave because I feel such a sense of loving community there.

I am itching to try out Orthodoxy. I have read a couple of books but that is not enough. I want to find a way to learn about the faith. I know right now, I my knowledge is lacking, but I have similar concerns with Gurney about Catholicism.

What similarities and differences are you noticing between Orthodoxy and Anglican Christianity?

Did you know there are two Western Rite Orthodox parishes in Virginia? I think they are a bit of a drive but if I were there I would totally check them out!

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

You pick the hugest signature pics, Meghan!

Did you know there are two Western Rite Orthodox parishes in Virginia? I think they are a bit of a drive but if I were there I would totally check them out!

 

[JesusforMadrid]

May I ask you a question, or a few? Are you inquiring about the Orthodox faith right now? Is there a program at that parish for seekers? Where are you at with those things?

I currently have been attending an Anglican parish right now, and I love the people there, but at times I don’t feel connected. The priest is an excellent speaker, but theologically there seems to be too much reformed Protestant or at least low church Protestant influence. The parish has been really good to me, I’m not sure if I can leave because I feel such a sense of loving community there.

I am itching to try out Orthodoxy. I have read a couple of books but that is not enough. I want to find a way to learn about the faith. I know right now, I my knowledge is lacking, but I have similar concerns with Gurney about Catholicism.

What similarities and differences are you noticing between Orthodoxy and Anglican Christianity?

I sort of painted myself in a corner spiritually. A few years ago I set out to show my Opus Dei wife that the original NT church was more like my low Anglican church than her RC church. After reading extensively from the Early Church Fathers, I had to conclude that the Early Church was more liturgical, sacramental and episcopal than my low Anglican church. At first, I ****just tried to live like a 1st century Christian by fasting every Wednesday and Friday and 40 days before Christmas and Easter.

After a while, however, I found myself increasingly feeling alone in my Anglican parish. I found myself unable to participate in a Eucharist that was considered purely symbolic.

Discovering Orthooxy was a pleasant surprise, starting with their continuation of 1st century fasting practices as described in the Didache. I then immersed myself in Orthoox books. In my local parish there are no inquirers classes, but I think I got more than enough theology from Met Ware, Frederica Matthews-Greene and St. John of Kronstadt.

After considerable reading, most of my objections disappeared. I think theologically Orthodoxy and high Anglicanism are not so far apart. I struggle with many post Schism RC dogma, so Orthodox theology seemed relatively easy.

Eastern Orthodox liturgy by contrast, takes some getting used to. My humble advice: don’t just attend a DL once and conclude that it is too alien. Print a copy of the liturgy of St. John Chrysostom and follow along. Invest a bit of time in your exploration. For me, the experience has been rich.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Is your wife willing to go from Opus Dei Catholicism to Orthodoxy?

I sort of painted myself in a corner spiritually. A few years ago I set out to show my Opus Dei wife that the original NT church was more like my low Anglican church than her RC church. After reading extensively from the Early Church Fathers, I had to conclude that the Early Church was more liturgical, sacramental and episcopal than my low Anglican church. At first, I ****just tried to live like a 1st century Christian by fasting every Wednesday and Friday and 40 days before Christmas and Easter.

After a while, however, I found myself increasingly feeling alone in my Anglican parish. I found myself unable to participate in a Eucharist that was considered purely symbolic.

Discovering Orthooxy was a pleasant surprise, starting with their continuation of 1st century fasting practices as described in the Didache. I then immersed myself in Orthoox books. In my local parish there are no inquirers classes, but I think I got more than enough theology from Met Ware, Frederica Matthews-Greene and St. John of Kronstadt.

After considerable reading, most of my objections disappeared. I think theologically Orthodoxy and high Anglicanism are not so far apart. I struggle with many post Schism RC dogma, so Orthodox theology seemed relatively easy.

Eastern Orthodox liturgy by contrast, takes some getting used to. My humble advice: don’t just attend a DL once and conclude that it is too alien. Print a copy of the liturgy of St. John Chrysostom and follow along. Invest a bit of time in your exploration. For me, the experience has been rich.

 

[JesusforMadrid]

Is your wife willing to go from Opus Dei Catholicism to Orthodoxy?

Not yet and perhaps not ever.

And so far that is not a big problem. We are united in so many things…

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

so are you two going to different churches?

Not yet and perhaps not ever.

And so far that is not a big problem. We are united in so many things…

 

[JesusforMadrid]

so are you two going to different churches?

We alternate.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Do you go to confession at your anglican parish or are you ok without it, Anglican style?

We alternate.

 

[JesusforMadrid]

I have recently been to Anglican confession. I am not ok without it, although I am in a grey sacramental zone. I will need to be chrismated before long.

 

[mardukm]

Dear brother Gurney,

Yes, thanks for asking

So it’s not true that the Orthodox Churches have not had a problem with the Reformation.

Again, yes, and I don’t see it as a big deal or a major point of contention
Ever heard of the Old Believers and the Old Calendarists?
Though it cannot be said that the EO have experienced nothing like the Traditionalist schism within the Latin Catholic Church.

I made my point
What’s your point? All Christians struggle with sin, from the one belonging to the most free church baptist church, to the one belonging to the most centralized ecclesiastical organization.
It seemed as though your point was that the EO have been morally stable despite not having a visible head. If that was your point, it is not true. If that was not your point, then all is copacetic.

For a long time, the entire Church operated this way with the Emperor playing a key role. I seem to remember a council called Nicaea with Constantine involved AND the bishops with the pope signing off on it…
I’m just saying the idea that the EO have not had a “head” to help preserve unity throughout all these years of mutual separation from the Catholic Church is a myth.

What’s your point?
Please don’t anyone think I’m proposing any sort of Absolutist Petrine model.
That to propose we need a centralizing point for unity cannot be absolutely equated with the Absolutist Petrine model, as many non-Catholics like to pretend.

Blessings,
Marduk