Eastern Rite and Pope Benedict XIV

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TantumErgo90 said:
From the Council of Trent:
If anyone says that human studies are to be treated with such a degree of liberty that their assertions may be maintained as true even when they are opposed to Divine Revelation, and that they may not be forbidden by the Church: let him be anathema.
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Okay, I know I sound snotty, but I really don’t mean to. That said, what does this have to do with the Pope being a judge of science?

Don’t just through quotes at me, present arguments; lines of reasoning.

God Bless,
R.
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I think a good example is the condemnation of embryonic stem-cell research.
 
TantumErgo90 said:
I think a good example is the condemnation of embryonic stem-cell research.
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I think that you completely missed the point of my mathematical example, because you keep talking about oranges when I spoke of apples. Basic mathematical truths are a different kettle of fish than medical ethics, which the Pope need not rule on for us to be able to judge right and wrong.

God Bless,
R.
 
jimmy said:
So what rites is the Latin rite better than in this context? Considering the fact that P. Benedict XIV was after the council of Trent the only possibility is that he is refering to the eastern rites. He clearly says that since it is the rite of Rome it should be prefered. The statement indicates that it is better than all others.
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Ambrosian, Dominican, Carmelite, Franciscan, Celtic, Gallican, Mozarabic, and other Western Rites nominally part of the Roman Church.
 
You are correct the Pope probably won’t rule on mathematical truths. But if for some reason a mathematical theory went against the Faith, the Pope could rule and condemn it.
 
Aramis said:
Ambrosian, Dominican, Carmelite, Franciscan, Celtic, Gallican, Mozarabic, and other Western Rites nominally part of the Roman Church.
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The liturgical uses of the religious orders, although referred to as rites, are anything but in the comprehensive sense a rite is used today. They are merely slight versions of the Latin, and were reformed along with the rest of the Latin post Vatican II.

The Gallican, Mozarabic and Ambrosian rites (being once true rites) are so Latinized today they certainly illustrate the concept of Praestantia Ritus Latini. The policy has been applied in the west for far longer than applied in the east.

Historically, it does not look as though Benedict XIV had initiated this policy, he merely clarified and confirmed a longstanding attitude which he shared.

That Pope Benedict had intended to exclude the Eastern churches from this policy is a hardly defensible position, this is the first I have heard anyone suggest it as a possibility.
 
Aramis said:
Ambrosian, Dominican, Carmelite, Franciscan, Celtic, Gallican, Mozarabic, and other Western Rites nominally part of the Roman Church.
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Considering the quote as posted above that does not sound accurate considering that the Greek and Oriental rites are specifically mentioned.Since the Latin rite is the rite of the holy Roman church and this church is mother and teacher of the other churches, the Latin rite should be preferred to all other rites. **It follows that it is not lawful to transfer from the Latin to the Greek rite. Nor may those who have come over to the Latin rite from the Greek or Oriental rite return again to the Greek Rite, unless particular circumstances occasion the giving of a dispensation **(constitution Etsi Pastoralis 57, sect. 2, no. 13, in Our Bullarii, vol. 1). Such dispensations have sometimes been given in times past, and are still given in the Roman College of the Maronites. When a priest there enters the Society of Jesus, he is given a dispensation to transfer to the Latin rite, and sometimes he receives an additional dispensation to say Mass and perform his Divine Office in the church of this College in the Syrian and Chaldaean rite in order to teach this rite to the students there. This is quite clear from many Decrees of the Congregation of the Holy Office, e.g. the Decrees of December 30, 1716; December 14, 1740; and the more recent Decree of August 19, 1752.
 
Just like the Pope’s comment about Islam that was taken out of context, this quote could very much be the same thing.

I think the original poster should supply a link to the document where this quote is lifted from so that we can see if the quote is accurate and so we can see it in context.

This is the only way we can know what the Pope meant by the statement.

Otherwise we are putting our own opinions and biases to it which I believe is uncharitable.
 
ByzCath said:
Just like the Pope’s comment about Islam that was taken out of context, this quote could very much be the same thing.

I think the original poster should supply a link to the document where this quote is lifted from so that we can see if the quote is accurate and so we can see it in context.

This is the only way we can know what the Pope meant by the statement.

Otherwise we are putting our own opinions and biases to it which I believe is uncharitable.
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its a letter to the missionariaes (presumably of the latin rite) sent to the orient.
 
Chaldean_Rite said:
its a letter to the missionariaes (presumably of the latin rite) sent to the orient.
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A link would be helpful.

But if this is the case then it tells me much about the context.

The pope was not speaking as pope but as head of the Latin Church. As such, when speaking to missionaries of the Latin Church I see nothing wrong with telling them that their rite is preferred in their missionary activities.
 
And some more context:
  1. We thought We should explain these matters in this encyclical letter to reveal the bases of the answers given to the missionary who raised the questions mentioned at the beginning. But We also wanted to make clear to all the good will which the Apostolic See feels for Oriental Catholics in commanding them to observe fully their ancient rites which are not at variance with the Catholic religion or with propriety. The Church does not require schismatics to abandon their rites when they return to Catholic unity, but only that they forswear and detest heresy. Its great desire is for the preservation, not the destruction, of different peoples-in short, that all may be Catholic rather than all become Latin. papalencyclicals.net/Ben14/b14allat.htm
The final paragraph of the encyclical before the blessing and attribution.
 
bpbasilphx said:
Since the Latin rite is the rite of the holy Roman church and this church is mother and teacher of the other churches, the Latin rite should be preferred to all other rites.

**No one seems to be dealing with this quote honestly.

It clearly means that the Latin liturgical rite was considered the ideal one, and the more others conform to it, the more “perfect” they are. This is why, for example, the Synod of Zamosc abolished the zeon, the Maronites forbade Communion in both kinds to the laity (their original custom), infants were denied communion, and clerical celibacy was imposed in certain Eastern Catholic Churches.

Traces of this same arrogance appear in these fora from time to time.

Fortunately, this statment by Benedict XIV was NOT an ex-cathedra statement.**
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If the Latin Liturgy was so ‘perfect’ why did the Western Church reform it with all hast after Vatican II? 🤷
 
Volodymyr said:
How can a person not speak as that person?? These kinds of confusing explanations make it difficult to understand Catolicism.
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The pope actually holds three different offices. He is the supreme pontiff of the Catholic Church, he is the head of the Latin Catholic Church, and he is the Bishop of Rome.

There are times when he speaks as each one.

For example when he says that the diocese of Rome the norm or reception of the Eucharist is on the tongue and will not have female altar servers he is only speaking as bishop of Rome and these statements are in no way binding up on the other Dioceses of the Latin Catholic Church.

When he said that the celibate priesthood is mandated and married men will not be ordained he is speaking as the head of the Latin Catholic Church and is no binding upon the Eparchies of those Churches where the married secular priesthood is a tradition.

It is very easy to see and understand.

Then when one reads the whole document and sees the last paragraph as posted by tdgesq above one can clearly see that the pope was not saying what many here wish he was saying.
 
ByzCath said:
And what does this have to do with Archbishop Ireland?

Here is another issue we have.

Keep bringing up the past.
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As I recall, the conversation revealed that the past isn’t, well, past. E.g. the ban on married Maronite priests and the circumstances surrounding its reaffirmation, the back ended ordinations for the Byzantine rite, etc.
 
TantumErgo90 said:
. The Pope is the ultimate authority in the Church on Earth. Therefore his see is the Mother and Teacher of all the other Churches.
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Including Jerusalem and Antioch? Hmmm. Interesting how a daughter gives birth to their mother.
 
TantumErgo90 said:
You are correct the Pope probably won’t rule on mathematical truths. But if for some reason a mathematical theory went against the Faith, the Pope could rule and condemn it.
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Oh no! If he couldn’t do that when I was in school, he’s not to do that now or in the future!!
 
Isa_Almisry said:
As I recall, the conversation revealed that the past isn’t, well, past. E.g. the ban on married Maronite priests and the circumstances surrounding its reaffirmation, the back ended ordinations for the Byzantine rite, etc.
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Maybe the conversation did this for you, but it did not for me.

The past is the past.

Keep bringing it up and there can be no future as we are always crying about the past.

Especially when you are a non-catholic. I fail to see where you have anything in this “fight”.
 
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