Eastern Rite and Pope Benedict XIV

[TantumErgo90]

I’m sorry, but this statement really cracks me up.

. The Pope is the ultimate authority in the Church on Earth. Therefore his see is the Mother and Teacher of all the other Churches.

 

[Peter_J]

The Diocese (Church) of Rome is the Mother and Teacher of all Churches, regardless of Western or Eastern. This is because only the Pope, Bishop of Rome, can say if something is true or not.

. The Pope is the ultimate authority in the Church on Earth. Therefore his see is the Mother and Teacher of all the other Churches.

Interesting … you didn’t repeat the part about “only the Pope, Bishop of Rome, can say if something is true or not”.

Should I take this as a sign that you’re starting to re-consider that assertion?

 

[tdgesq]

From Allatae Sunt:

Transferring from Latin to Greek Rite Forbidden

1. When Union was effected at the Council of Florence, some Latin Catholics living in Greece thought that it was lawful for them to go over to the Greek rite. They may have been attracted by the freedom retained by the Greeks for priests to keep wives after Ordination if they were married before being ordained. But Pope Nicholas V carefully applied a timely remedy to this abuse: “It has come to Our attention that many Catholics in districts with a Greek Catholic bishop are shamelessly going over to the Greek rites under pretext of the Union. We are greatly astonished, since We do not know what inspired them to leave the practice and rites in which they were born and reared for foreign rites. Even though the rites of the oriental church are praiseworthy, it is not permitted to confuse the rites of the churches. The holy council of Florence never allowed this” (constitution in Bullarii recenter Romae editi, vol. 3, part 3, p. 64).

Since the Latin rite is the rite of the holy Roman church and this church is mother and teacher of the other churches, the Latin rite should be preferred to all other rites. It follows that it is not lawful to transfer from the Latin to the Greek rite. Nor may those who have come over to the Latin rite from the Greek or Oriental rite return again to the Greek Rite, unless particular circumstances occasion the giving of a dispensation (constitution Etsi Pastoralis 57, sect. 2, no. 13, in Our Bullarii, vol. 1). Such dispensations have sometimes been given in times past, and are still given in the Roman College of the Maronites. When a priest there enters the Society of Jesus, he is given a dispensation to transfer to the Latin rite, and sometimes he receives an additional dispensation to say Mass and perform his Divine Office in the church of this College in the Syrian and Chaldaean rite in order to teach this rite to the students there. This is quite clear from many Decrees of the Congregation of the Holy Office, e.g. the Decrees of December 30, 1716; December 14, 1740; and the more recent Decree of August 19, 1752.

Transferring from Greek to Latin Rite

1. We have dealt with transferring from the Latin to the Greek rite. Transferrals in the opposite direction are not forbidden as strictly as the former. Still, a missionary who hopes for the return of a Greek or Oriental to the unity of the Catholic Church may not make him give up his own rite. This can cause great harm.

Melchite Catholics used to transfer willingly from the Greek to the Latin rite, but they have been forbidden to do so. Missionaries have been warned not to urge them to transfer. Permission to do so has been reserved to the private decision of the Apostolic See. This is clear from Our constitution Demandatam, 85, sect. 35 (Bullarium, vol. 1): “Moreover We expressly forbid henceforth all Melchite Catholics who observe the Greek rite to transfer to the Latin rite. We give strict orders to all missionaries not to encourage anyone rashly to transfer to the Latin from the Greek rite, nor even to allow them to do so if they want to without the permission of the Apostolic See, under the penalties which will be set out below and other penalties to be decided on by Us.”

The same teaching is conveyed in the Decrees of Urban VIII in reference to the GrecoRuthenian rite, issued at the Congregation for the Propagation of the Faith in his presence on February 7 and July 6, 1624. While it might seem fair to allow Italo-Greeks to transfer freely from the Greek to the Latin rite, since they live among us and are subject to a Latin bishop, it has nevertheless been laid down that the consent of the Apostolic See is necessary in the case of the transference of secular or regular clergy. If lay people want to transfer, the permission of their bishop is sufficient. He may give this permission with restraint to certain specified individuals, but never to a whole group. In the latter case the consent of the Apostolic See is required (see constitution Etsi Pastoralis 17, sect. 2, no. 14, Bullarium, vol. 1).

 

[TantumErgo90]

I am not recanting my position. What I meant by “only the Pope” he is the ultimate authority on if something is true or not. He can overturn any decision made by the Latin Catholic Clergy or the Eastern Catholic Clergy. He is the only person that can by him self declare something infallible. The Body of Bishops in union with the Pope can declare something infallible at an ecumenical council, but the bishop of my diocese cannot go out and declare something infallible. Sorry for the confusion. Anything Latin or Eastern can be approved or condemned by the Pope.

 

[Formosus]

In which case, it’s almost absolutely Latin Church centered.

Sorry, my dyslexia makes roman numerals really problematic.

No problem. I almost got tricked up by it as well : p

As for the quote, His Lordship’s opinion is probably the case. Its a situation where the Pope was simply wrong. The holder of the Office is not always perfect and not everything he says in infallible. He confused the primacy of the Roman Church, with a preferment (is that a word?) for latin liturgical rites which has been repudiated and proven wrong by later Popes and an Ecumenical council.

 

[Peter_J]

I am not recanting my position.

Don’t worry, the inquisition ended a long time ago.

But just so there’s no “confusion”, the position you’re not recanting is the one where you said that “only the Pope, Bishop of Rome, can say if something is true or not”?

 

[jimmy]

Again, context is everything. We are dealing with it honestly.

I would say that those who pull this quote out of context. Both the context of the document and to whom it was addressed are the ones not being honest.

Just another way to start a fight and point out the supossed distain for the Eastern Churches.

So what rites is the Latin rite better than in this context? Considering the fact that P. Benedict XIV was after the council of Trent the only possibility is that he is refering to the eastern rites. He clearly says that since it is the rite of Rome it should be prefered. The statement indicates that it is better than all others.

 

[TantumErgo90]

Don’t worry, the inquisition ended a long time ago.

But just so there’s no “confusion”, the position you’re not recanting is the one where you said that “only the Pope, Bishop of Rome, can say if something is true or not”?

Again, I’m sorry for the confusion. Perhaps, a poor choice of words. I’m referring to Papal Infallibility. I clarified my position earlier

What I meant by “only the Pope” he is the ultimate authority on if something is true or not. He can overturn any decision made by the Latin Catholic Clergy or the Eastern Catholic Clergy. He is the only person that can by him self declare something infallible. The Body of Bishops in union with the Pope can declare something infallible at an ecumenical council, but the bishop of my diocese cannot go out and declare something infallible. Sorry for the confusion. Anything Latin or Eastern can be approved or condemned by the Pope.

All things is the Roman and Eastern Churches are subject to the Popes authority, and can either be accepted or rejected. Now obviously, no one can change infallible teaching.

 

[Peter_J]

Hi TantumErgo90,

I don’t know why you keep implying that I’m confused.

You said “only the Pope, Bishop of Rome, can say if something is true or not” then later you said “I am not recanting my position”.

If you now want to change your mind and recant, that’s find with me. If not, that’s fine with me too. I’m just observing.

 

[TantumErgo90]

Hi TantumErgo90,

I don’t know why you keep implying that I’m confused.

You said “only the Pope, Bishop of Rome, can say if something is true or not” then later you said “I am not recanting my position”.

If you now want to change your mind and recant, that’s find with me. If not, that’s fine with me too. I’m just observing.

When I said that I’m sorry for the confusion, I mean that I am sorry that what I wrote caused confusion. Read what I wrote to clarify what I meant in my previous post. What you seem to be implying is that the Pope has no control over what the Eastern Churches do. He has supreme and universal jurisdiction!

 

[Peter_J]

What you seem to be implying is that the Pope has no control over what the Eastern Churches do. He has supreme and universal jurisdiction!

Which of my post are you referring to?

 

[TantumErgo90]

I am referring to the fact that you were laughing that the Pope is the ultimate judge on earth as to whether something is true or not.

 

[Allyson]

I am referring to the fact that you were laughing that the Pope is the ultimate judge on earth as to whether something is true or not.

okay at the risk of causing more havoc… I took the beginning of this exchange in a light manner - i e. actually funny.

You originally stated.

The Diocese (Church) of Rome is the Mother and Teacher of all Churches, regardless of Western or Eastern. This is because only the Pope, Bishop of Rome, can say if something is true or not. This does not mean, however, that the Eastern Churches cannot be beneficial or help deepen the understanding of doctrines of the Catholic Church.

Okay, the highlighted is a funny statement, because we all know what you mean to say, but the meaning of what you say is lost in its logic.

In other words, you see to imply that* all* truths must be judged/ or stated (Post 12) by the Pope. To say that the mathematical equation “2+2=4” is true is to utter a truth, and it is true irregardless of what anyone says or judges. But what you imply is that the Pope alone must judge/say it for it to be true , which I know you know is not true. The Pope does not have to tell us that 2+2=4, as would seem to be implied by your earlier post.

Its fun with words. You meant one thing, but you keep saying another in spite of the fact you have clarified yourself.

God Bless,
R.

 

[Peter_J]

I think I can help you out there:

The Diocese (Church) of Rome is the Mother and Teacher of all Churches, regardless of Western or Eastern. **This is because only the Pope, Bishop of Rome, can say if something is true or not. **

 

[Peter_J]

P.S. Hi, Allyson. I just saw your post.

 

[TantumErgo90]

The truths I were speaking of were in the Church. But the Pope can judge things regarding science also.

 

[Allyson]

The truths I were speaking of were in the Church. But the Pope can judge things regarding science also.

Like I said, I know what you meant by “truths.”

Now, science? You’ll have to explain better what you mean, because science is beyond the realm of what “infallibility” is meant to cover. I can judge science too; we all can. There is nothing special about the Pope in these matters.

God Bless,
R.

 

[tdgesq]

So what rites is the Latin rite better than in this context? Considering the fact that P. Benedict XIV was after the council of Trent the only possibility is that he is refering to the eastern rites. He clearly says that since it is the rite of Rome it should be prefered. The statement indicates that it is better than all others.

From the portion of the encyclical I quoted above, it is obvious that he makes the comment in reference to individuals in the RCC going over to an ECC merely to avoid the disciplinary rule of clerical celibacy. In fact, Benedict XIV states “the rites of the oriental church are praiseworthy.” He also expressly forbids missionaries from urging ECs to transfer to the RCC, to the point that he forbids it for the Melkites without permission from the Holy See.

That being said, I agree he must be referring to the eastern churches when he states “the Latin rite should be preferred to all other rites.” He uses this reasoning to support his conclusion that “it is not lawful to transfer from the Latin to the Greek rite.” I think this statement goes too far. It was enough to note that it is not permissible to transfer to another Church simply to avoid disciplinary rules.

 

[TantumErgo90]

From the Council of Trent:

If anyone says that human studies are to be treated with such a degree of liberty that their assertions may be maintained as true even when they are opposed to Divine Revelation, and that they may not be forbidden by the Church: let him be anathema.

 

[jimmy]

From the portion of the encyclical I quoted above, it is obvious that he makes the comment in reference to individuals in the RCC going over to an ECC merely to avoid the disciplinary rule of clerical celibacy. In fact, Benedict XIV states “the rites of the oriental church are praiseworthy.” He also expressly forbids missionaries from urging ECs to transfer to the RCC, to the point that he forbids it for the Melkites without permission from the Holy See.

That being said, I agree he must be referring to the eastern churches when he states “the Latin rite should be preferred to all other rites.” He uses this reasoning to support his conclusion that “it is not lawful to transfer from the Latin to the Greek rite.” I think this statement goes too far. It was enough to note that it is not permissible to transfer to another Church simply to avoid disciplinary rules.

Notice that the statement that they are praiseworthy are the words of P. Nicholas V quoted by P. Benedict XIV.