J
- Status
P
Philip_P
Guest
Lisa N:
Lisa N:
I’m not a regular reader of the LA Times, so I don’t really have a sense of its quality. I did happen to enjoy the particular series I mentioned. Is the reporter who wrote it tied to the N Korea article or otherwise suspect, or simply tainted by association?
Lisa N:
As far as economics, better economics education in general are necessary, both micro and macro, but more importantly, how that translates onto the human level. We did some in high school, mostly on how the stock market works. It would have been more helpful to learn about things like how banks work and maybe even how cities and communities work.
I also agree it’s a mistake to treat teens as “rutting animals.” I don’t like treating people as stupid. Far better to give them straight information and hold them up to a higher decision-making standard. Of course, change doesn’t happen overnight. For those that make poor decisions, it really is a problem if they are choosing between a “pro-choicer” comes across as sympathetic or a “pro-lifer” who they feel will judge them for pre-marital sex. The last thing we should be doing is driving them to the “pro-choicers”
Yeah, the prochoicers have an ideological blindness of their own. I’ve never claimed otherwise. It would be a mistake to lump ALL liberals as being represented by Planned Parenthood, though, just as it would be a slander to take Eric Rudolph as a fair representative of pro-lifers.
Lisa N:
more…
No problem, sometimes it’s hard to tell tone online.
Lisa N:
North Korea with “our Dear Leader” I lost even the smidgen of respect I had for the LA Times as journalism.
I’m not a regular reader of the LA Times, so I don’t really have a sense of its quality. I did happen to enjoy the particular series I mentioned. Is the reporter who wrote it tied to the N Korea article or otherwise suspect, or simply tainted by association?
Lisa N:
I can’t speak from personal experience (didn’t go to public schools, don’t have kids), but as a general comment it seems like current sex-ed is not very well balanced. Shoving people onto the Pill seems to go hand in hand with pushing Ritalin and antidepressants and other examples of an overdependence on chemical shortcuts. I wouldn’t support “abstinence only,” not from any ideological opposition, but based on the fact that it doesn’t seem to work very well. However, I would support programs that properly informed about all options and consequences INCLUDING abstinence, so that they could more properly make good decisions. I also think the idea of better stressing of what actually happens in pregnancy would help (maybe we should have more embryology in biology classes).
As far as economics, better economics education in general are necessary, both micro and macro, but more importantly, how that translates onto the human level. We did some in high school, mostly on how the stock market works. It would have been more helpful to learn about things like how banks work and maybe even how cities and communities work.
I also agree it’s a mistake to treat teens as “rutting animals.” I don’t like treating people as stupid. Far better to give them straight information and hold them up to a higher decision-making standard. Of course, change doesn’t happen overnight. For those that make poor decisions, it really is a problem if they are choosing between a “pro-choicer” comes across as sympathetic or a “pro-lifer” who they feel will judge them for pre-marital sex. The last thing we should be doing is driving them to the “pro-choicers”
Lisa N said:
Yeah, the prochoicers have an ideological blindness of their own. I’ve never claimed otherwise. It would be a mistake to lump ALL liberals as being represented by Planned Parenthood, though, just as it would be a slander to take Eric Rudolph as a fair representative of pro-lifers.
Lisa N:
It would be pointless to argue whether such an approach is more “liberal” or “conservative,” I’m a big fan of results, and a big fan of people who put forward proposals backed by evidence rather than rhetoric, whatever label they carry. While I’m likely to be dismissive of those who attack a program simply as prelude to arguing for the elimination of it, I am very open to those who point out flaws and shortcomings in order to lead the way to improvements.
more…
P
Philip_P
Guest
Lisa N:
Looking through everyone’s replies, it does look like we at least agree that education/schools is one important area where work can be done. Even Brad, who is apparently working off some model where bad things only happen to bad people and only good things happen to good people (and sounds, at times, like he favors a theocracy), says that “Everyone should be given an opportunity to be educated.”
Are we talking vouchers here? I’m not sure I’m against vouchers, but I can foresee a few problems. First of all, who gets to go to private schools? Presumably the schools can reject students. Would they be able to reject them on sectarian grounds? Income (maybe they want parents who can contribute lots of money for the new football stadium, for instance)? Parents’ language? Family status? Second, what happens to the kids who can’t get in to private schools? How will they be educated?
I think a guestworker program is a great idea, but I would also couple that with drastically increasing the number of legal immigrants allowed in, and with streamlining the process for citizenship. Better, I think, to bring immigrants in officially and give them a stake in our nation than to feed an unjust, unregulated, exploitative, and dangerous underground immigration. What complicates this is a latent xenophobia in our culture. Politically, it’s difficult to push for increased immigration (foreigners tend to make convenient scapegoats). I was actually rather hopeful, in 2000, when Bush and Fox seemed to be on the road to a new era in US-Mexico relations. While its understandable that other issues took priority soon after, it’s a shame this line has not been taken up again
Looking through everyone’s replies, it does look like we at least agree that education/schools is one important area where work can be done. Even Brad, who is apparently working off some model where bad things only happen to bad people and only good things happen to good people (and sounds, at times, like he favors a theocracy), says that “Everyone should be given an opportunity to be educated.”
Are we talking vouchers here? I’m not sure I’m against vouchers, but I can foresee a few problems. First of all, who gets to go to private schools? Presumably the schools can reject students. Would they be able to reject them on sectarian grounds? Income (maybe they want parents who can contribute lots of money for the new football stadium, for instance)? Parents’ language? Family status? Second, what happens to the kids who can’t get in to private schools? How will they be educated?
B
Brad
Guest
Lisa N:
You make a very good point. How many teenagers in the backseat or the unsupervised bedroom have a detailed conversation about whether they can afford a baby in the event they can’t quite figure out or access the condom or it fails?
I’ll say. The reason that most (not all) in my high school refrained most of the time is because if was NOT supported and rightly looked down upon. It worked! The only thing to make it work better is to be open and honest about the realities and the dangers from a physical, emotional, and spiritual perspective. Of course most of our schools aren’t interested in long-term thinking and are vigoursly against spiritual thinking so the result is not making a distinction between human and animal.
You make a very good point. How many teenagers in the backseat or the unsupervised bedroom have a detailed conversation about whether they can afford a baby in the event they can’t quite figure out or access the condom or it fails?
J
jlw
Guest
Merit. If you have the grades, you get a voucher. You can “earn” your way out of the failing government school.
I would love it if ALL public schools had to re-charter!! Just like term limits for politicians, public school offiicals get a 3-year contract in place, they are allowed to be creative within the governement rules, and based on performance, the contract can be renewed or denied at the end of the term. Outlandish??
I would also say that public education would improve if there were school uniforms and that teachers weren’t handcuffed by a school board on one side, and the ACLU on the other. They must be given control of the classroom. 25 kids are easier to handle if they all know who’s boss. Misbehavior in our public schools are tolerated much too much.
F
fix
Guest
Do you think this is an authentically Catholic position? Since kids still will use illicit drugs, would it be a good idea to tell them to make sure that they only use pharmacy quality drugs so they do not get anything contaminated?
F
fix
Guest
How many are told about losing sanctifying grace? Eternal damnation? How many are properly educated in the basics of moral theology or why offending God is such a grave sin?
L
Lisa_N
Guest
No kidding! Our small Christian community group was talking about schools today versus in the past (age range from 30s to 60s). One of the women went to a Catholic school and she said classes were HUGE with ONE nun in charge. She said that the kids towed the line. I remember that even though I was a relatively rebellious, bratty kid I was TERRIFIED at the thought of a trip to the principal’s office. A threat of that and I settled right down. FWIW my grade school which was excellent (affiliated with a ‘normal’ or teacher’s college) had one class for each grade. Our classes ranged from 30 to 36 in numbers. We did not drug kids into submission and about the worst thing that could happen is staying after school, cleaning the blackboard etc. But kids did listen to and respected teachers.
Now this is pure hearsay but I understand the NEA is a major culprit in problems with public schools. Good teachers are handcuffed and poor teachers are tolerated. This from teachers BTW, not from the outside.
Lisa N
B
Brad
Guest
Philip P:
You want grade and high school kids to make good decisions based on information irregardless if the quality or truthfulness of that education? How exactly do you work this? Let’s do a hypothetical. Let’s assume you have a classroom of males, all of which have “girlfriends” that would be willing to do anything to please their “sweetheart”. These males have no religous or values backgroud. You teach them for 1 hour about all the problems that might happen if you do not stay abstinent - disease, unexpected pregnancy, emotional scarring etc. After that 1 hour, you tell them all in 5 minutes: Don’t worry, there is an escape hatch just incase you can’t contain yourselves though - it’s called a condom. I bet you $100 dollars they remember the 5 minute condom lesson and forget all about the 1 hour of abstinence. Now they were very well informed. Did they pick the “good” choice?
L
Lisa_N
Guest
ALso the jury is out with respect to whether abstinence programs work or not. They are relatively new, and we don’t have a lot of results. However as I understand the CDC did indicate that pregnancies and certainly STDs were reduced due to abstinence programs. We need to give this approach time and the opportunity to work.
FWIW Brad is quite right. I assure you that the one thing that kept kids out of the backseat when I was in high school was fear of being found out, and pregnancy. It was NOT cool to get pregnant when you were a high school junior when I was in high school (70s). Giving the Pill and abortion availability removed two of the biggest barriers to teen sex.
Lisa N
J
jlw
Guest
Exactly. As I wrote earlier in this thread:
"If condoms weren’t being passed out by their guidance counselors, and instead the young man had to risk an embarrassing “price check on aisle 4” to get a box of Trojans, don’t you think he would look at sex a bit more responsibly???"
F
fix
Guest
Lisa N:
Goes back to my post about reintroducing the concept of shame into this society. No one is shamed or saddened by immoral sexual behavior these days. It is celebrated. Even to mention that shame should play a role anymore is seen as hateful.
J
jlw
Guest
Quite right. Getting pregnant is STILL considered “not cool”. But what has changed is young women are caught in a world where modern feminism tells them that “true women” don’t have “sexual hang-ups”. So not “giving it up” is considered “not cool” too.
L
Lisa_N
Guest
Absolutely! Shame is NOT a bad thing in every case. It can certainly change attitudes. I’ve used this example before but look at the attitude toward drunk driving. People used to sort of wink and nod and think there for the grace of God go I. Now drunk drivers are considered irresponsible if not criminal.
Geez speaking of celebrating sex there was a review in the ‘women’s section’ of the paper this morning about some new book on “Hookups” A group of local single professional (???) women were on a panel discussing today’s relationships and supposedly the modern woman eschews commitment, dating, or a relationship for casual encounters. However the women they interviewed didn’t want to get too many men on their scorecard. So they were uttering such profound observations as “Some women go home with the same guy they’ve hooked up with before so they won’t have over nine sexual partners to their credit.”
All I can say is these women have been sold a complete bill of goods. What on earth is the BENEFIT of ‘hooking up’ even if you aren’t planning on marriage? What a horrible trivialization of sex, your own body and your future spouse. All I could think was EWWWWWWW! What is wrong with these women?
Lisa N
F
fix
Guest
Lisa N:
What is so shocking is that none of this is shocking to most people. I am not an old man, but these things are seen as normal, aceptable and to be expected by too many. No one will convince me things like that newspaper article are not part of the proplem. We want less abortion or poverty or any other societal ill, well then, we should start by seeking ways to foster views that contradict this culture of death.
B
Brad
Guest
Many do think this is a good idea today.
B
Brad
Guest
Lisa N:
There used to be a name for these kind of women. As if it is some kind of accomplishment to be able to seduce multiple men without the hangup of committment? Like that’s really difficult. Give me a break. Why don’t they pickup the skill of stealing chocolate from 4-year olds when they aren’t looking? After all, the chocolate tastes awfully good and a 4-year old is too dumb to figure you out.
P
Philip_P
Guest
If it were based simply on merit, I think even many moderates and moderately left folks could go along with it. Realistically, though, I think it would be the conservatives who would cry foul. Suppose, for instance, a child who was being raised by a same-sex couple qualified on merit and wanted to attend a Catholic school. What are the odds that a vocal group of parents at the school would object?
Also, I’m still unsure about the problem of those who can’t get into private schools. Some won’t qualify on merit. Also, in some communities, there are no private schools nearby, or not enough for the demand. I don’t think we can have the government require that a private school be built (all sorts of conflict of interest issues, not to mention running afoul of the Constitution’s establishment clause).
On sex-ed, we again start running against Constitutional issues. The points on contraception may be perfectly valid for a Catholic school, but how do you translate this over to a non-Catholic school? I’m having a hard time seeing how talking about sanctifying grace and so forth, as Brad mentions, can possibly be applied outside of a specifically Catholic setting. Given the basic Constitutional limits we are working in, how do you propose adequately reforming sex ed?
B
Brad
Guest
Philip P:
In pre-evolution days, you used to be able to tell kids they were made by God for a purpose. Now we can’t because the ACLU has everyone intimidated, despite the fact that the constitution says nothing of separation of chuch and state, let alone being able to mention things spiritual in school. The ACLU and other like groups would rather everyone fail and be miserable I guess.
I didn’t say you talk about sanctifying grace in public schools. If you want to know my opinion, sex-ed doesn’t belong in the schools at all. Basic human biology should be taught - that’s it. Sex-ed belongs in the home and maybe the church. I think Fix was making the point that sanctifying grace is not being taught anywhere, including church schools. To his point, there are concepts related to the grace of God that could be taught in public schools that would help alleviate some of these problems. For instance, you could talk about how everyone is capable of doing great things with their life - that this is something that is inside each one of them - talents and skills just waiting to be discovered - and if you put your short-term immediate desires and passions ahead of being disciplined and devoted towards your goals you run a much greater risk of failure. You could start with that.
In pre-evolution days, you used to be able to tell kids they were made by God for a purpose. Now we can’t because the ACLU has everyone intimidated, despite the fact that the constitution says nothing of separation of chuch and state, let alone being able to mention things spiritual in school. The ACLU and other like groups would rather everyone fail and be miserable I guess.
J
jlw
Guest
What are the odds that the same-sex couple wants to sent their kid to a school where homosexual acts are called intrinsically evil?? Conservatives may cry foul if private schools are FORCED to take students contrary to their ALREADY IN PLACE admission standards. For example, if the government required that the private school MUST take a quota of “at-risk” students, regardless of their grades and record, I could see why parents might be concerned.
Those are the breaks, right?? Standards are standards. I think vouchers should be used for “better” public schools if that is the case.
I think it is perfectly constitutional to do away with “condom dispensers” in high school bathrooms and discontinue “how to” sex discussions and show-n-tell in our classrooms.
I vote for the “Separatation of Sex and State”, at least in our public schools.
- Status