Ecumenical Dialogue

[yankeesouth]

Somehow, bibles in dentists offices has moved on to evangelizing Jews or just dialoguing with them.

Yeah I saw that thread. Meanwhile the bible in that dentist’s office is the abridged version and from what I read in the thread there was no mention that the dentist needs to be evangelized. Though I would wait until after treatment to do so.

 

[OddBird]

Protestant on her way to Rome here.

I’m a bit disturbed by the “hard” stance some of the commenters seem to take.

To me, ecumenism is crucial for at least one reason : the witness Christians are called to bring to the world. Our divisions are damaging to that witness and its credibility, as is the amount of energy we spend arguing with each other.

And, well, I’m proof of what non-agressive, consensual dialogue can bring. One day you wake up and think : really, is there any good reason why I shouldn’t be Catholic, when what I believe has become so close to what the Church teaches ?

 

[MiserereMeiDei]

Though I would wait until after treatment to do so.

Lol. Yes, probably for the best.

Meanwhile the bible in that dentist’s office is the abridged version and from what I read in the thread there was no mention that the dentist needs to be evangelized.

I think someone mentioned that she should ask why the bible in the waiting room was missing some books. I thought about it but I thought it might be a KJV with an apocrypha, though I don’t know if that’s includes all seven. And good point about evangelizing the dentist, but I guess most of us assume that much. These documents formally declaring no missions to the Jews has been a huge problem though.

 

[TC3033]

Is it fair to say, this thread went exactly how I expected it…? So many generalities of many of protestants do this, have that, etc… I’m always surprised in my 40 years I’ve never run into it…must be a geographical thing.

My wife and I have a “mixed” marriage and we have a ton in common, not sure that I can really list.

She has said that she has hoped at times that I become Catholic, but understands why I’m not. How non-Catholic Christians are spoken about on here and the way they can be spoken about at the local parish she doesn’t blame me. It is a real hurdle for me, and at times can really wear on her.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I’m a bit disturbed by the “hard” stance some of the commenters seem to take.

The problem is, some non-Catholics take a Catholic stating a basic truth about a basic doctrine such as the Real Presence as a “hard” statement.

I’m also not a fan of Catholics being expected to water down their beliefs or “go along to get along” or make our churches look less “Catholic” by taking out all statues and kneelers, in order to serve some ecumenical interest.

For many of us who grew up in the post-Vatican II era, ecumenism is a loaded word because we wonder what we are going to be asked to give up or concede to next.

 

[Diaconia]

Welcome home, our sister in Christ!

I will pray for you as you journey to the barque of Peter,
Deacon Christopher

 

[TC3033]

The problem is, some non-Catholics take a Catholic stating a basic truth about a basic doctrine such as the Real Presence as a “hard” statement.

To be fair, for every time that has happened I’ve heard some pretty “hard” and not true statements. You can go through this thread…there’s plenty of them.

Heck, I’ve even heard some in homilies or read them in church bulletins. Starting off a conversation with a non-Catholic by saying most protestants are pagans, heretics and infidels is pretty hard IMHO…I guess YMMV. Statements about my faith background such as those are a huge wall to me making a switch.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Is it fair to say, this thread went exactly how I expected it…?

You expected it because the vast majority of your posts on the forum seem to concern anti-Protestant and anti-mixed marriage bias that you say goes on at your parish. Neither I nor many others here have seen this sort of bias towards Protestants at the churches we attend. I have attended many parishes and was in a mixed marriage for 23 years and my husband sat in the pew during Communion and did not genuflect and no one noticed, cared or said boo about it. Once he was asked to help out as an extra usher.

 

[TC3033]

You expected it because the vast majority of your posts on the forum seem to concern anti-Protestant and anti-mixed marriage bias that you say goes on at your parish.

Nah…I expected it because I’ve been posting here for 6 years (longer if you include lurking). It’s kinda how these threads tend to go, surprisingly…usually not as quick though.

It’s nice that he was asked to be an usher. I had thought of volunteering for that particular ministry before, but at my wife’s parish I’m not allowed to…

 

[Tis_Bearself]

As I’ve said many times before, I’m sorry for the situation at your parish and sorry that it’s apparently not a viable option for you and your wife to join a friendlier parish.

Many posters on here have themes that they post a lot about. You’re not the only one. I see quite a few people playing their signature song in the thread. That is why these threads are predictable.

Don Ruggero used to have interesting takes in ecumenism based on his work. I miss his posts.

 

[TC3033]

As I’ve said many times before, I’m sorry for the situation at your parish and sorry that it’s apparently not a viable option for you and your wife to join a friendlier parish.

We moved this summer…so technically we live in a new parish. Not sure where she’ll end up deciding on. We had some “interesting” experiences there as well.

Many posters on here have themes that they post a lot about. You’re not the only one. I see quite a few people playing their signature song in the thread. That is why these threads are predictable.

Like I’ve said before…I post on threads where I have experience or can have some sort of (name removed by moderator)ut… Lately I’ve spent a lot of time in parenting and had been in evangelization talking RE programs (because the one at my wife’s church basically killed a good program they had).

 

[Michael16]

Even though I’m a convert, I’m definitely on the conservative side; though not a hardcore trad.

Tis, I came home in 2016, so I have no idea, beyond stereotypes; what life was like in the pre Vatican II Church. Could you please elaborate what you mean by ecumenism being a loaded word meaning what’s next to give up or concede to?

 

[Nihilo]

Either Catholicism is the original Christian faith (Ephesians 4:5 “One Lord, one faith, one baptism”), or it is not. There isn’t another option.

So as Catholics, we aren’t required to suspend any necessary implication to that we believe Catholicism is the same faith captured in the words of the New Testament.

One of those implications of Catholicism is that because Jesus is the Shepherd of His flock, the Catholic Church is His earthly fold for us His sheep. Other Christians are objectively outside the fold, which is where they do Not belong.

And the Lord instructs in Matthew 18 how we are authorized to treat sheep, who stubbornly resist entering or returning to the fold: “…let [them] be to thee as the heathen and publican,” verse 17. (The heathen are the pagans that’ve been mentioned already numerous times itt.)

And that doesn’t mean we treat them disrespectfully! In fact Catholicism believes we are to treat them with complete respect, and that means to me, at minimum, that we are to recognize, acknowledge, affirm, protect, and defend their basic, fundamental, natural, inborn, inherent, absolute, inalienable human rights.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

So: Let’s lift our heads out of the theological trenches and take a frank look at two things:

1. What we can agree on.
2. How can we support each other in an increasingly paganized world that’s hostile to Christianity?

So, one of the biggest differences between Catholicism and protestantism is the sacraments and most importantly the Mass. Jesus is present in the Eucharist and protestants do not agree with that and there is no way to agree or compromise on it, though I suspect there are those in the Church that are trying.

Then the second thing, as an ex-protestant, I can say that protestants themselves disagree to such a degree that there is no compromising. Some protestants themselves do not even believe the other protestants are Christian.

True ecumenism leads to the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

Similar to what someone else has said, the Catholic church has given up a lot over the years in the name of ecumenism and it is really time to stop and rather stand on what is true and bring our seperated brothers and sisters back to the fold.

 

[Genesis315]

The issue is Protestants–like Catholics–are individual persons. Ecumenism is about seeking corporate reunion, and therefore looks at the different Protestants communions each in a corporate sense. But every individual is different and there is no one size fits all approach for “making converts” as anyone who has helped bring more than one person into the Church knows. God also sends the grace of conversion when He wills, and it is not at the same time for every person (see Our Lord’s parable of the laborers in the vineyard). Everyone has their own, unique journey to the truth.

Different people in different Protestant communities are going in different directions. Some choose to move farther away from the truth and some are seeking to follow it wherever it leads, and everything in between (just like Catholics–some choose to move toward heresy and apostasy, while other proceed toward perfection, and everything in between).

Broad attempts at corporate reunion have always failed for precisely this reason–even when the higher ups agree, many individuals do not–while individuals come into full communion every year in every place on earth. Even reconciliations of smaller communities as a whole are rare and have always involved a division where many members choose to simply leave those communities.

Building off commonalities is of course the most common starting point, and rightly so. But when it comes to points of divergence, different people are helped by different approaches. Some appreciate a sharp debate. Others have different needs and are convinced in a myriad of other ways. Others still you just have to dust off your sandals and move on.

You’ll rarely help convert someone who has come onto Catholic Answers to debate–this is more of a place where we can strengthen our common faith together against those things outside (and, sadly, inside) the Church that might weaken it and provide answers to honest seekers/questioners.

Leave the ecumenical dialogue to the professional ecumenists–instead, get to know your individual neighbor in real life well enough to know what he needs–whatever that may be–to be open to receive the inheritance prepared for him and you will bring about more Christian unity than any ecumenical dialogue ever has.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Tis, I came home in 2016, so I have no idea, beyond stereotypes; what life was like in the pre Vatican II Church. Could you please elaborate what you mean by ecumenism being a loaded word meaning what’s next to give up or concede to?

“Ecumenism” post-Vatican II had some good points and some bad points.

Good points (IMHO - some of the other Catholic posters might disagree that these were “good” things):

• More acceptance of non-Catholics, and of mixed marriages at least to Protestants. In the pre-Vatican II era it was really frowned upon to marry outside the faith.
• Some Protestant hymns that I like such as “Amazing Grace” and “How Great Thou Art” were more acceptable for Catholic Church use.
• More bridge-building on the part of the clergy, and unification for things such as social justice ministries.
• The idea of Protestants going to Heaven became more widely accepted.
• A renewed emphasis on Scripture and Bible study for Catholics.

Bad points IMHO (some posters again might disagree that these are “bad”):

• The “Protestantization” of Catholic church interiors - many new churches were made to look very plain, statues were eliminated altogether or at most you’d have one abstract-looking thing, kneelers were often removed etc.
• A great de-emphasis on the Catholic faith as being the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, leading many people to adopt a sort of universalistic view that if you were worshipping God it didn’t matter which faith you were doing that in, or even if you decided to be “spiritual and not religious”.
• The elimination or great de-emphasis of a lot of Catholic devotional practices including the Rosary, Marian devotions, novenas, prayers to saints etc in favor of more “ecumenical” forms of prayer (like we all read Scripture and do freeform or modern prayers). Please understand I am not knocking Bible study or scripture-based prayer, I read Scripture myself every week, but I also don’t think it should be the only form of prayer available at a parish.
• The de-emphasis of Mary generally. This is never a good thing.
• The de-emphasis of the mystical and miraculous aspects of Catholicism in favor of some logical explanation, usually promoted by a non-Catholic, such as the idea that Jesus didn’t really multiply loaves and fishes, instead everybody brought their own food and shared it with each other.
• The de-emphasis of Purgatory and associated prayers.
• The de-emphasis of the Holy Eucharist, to the point where some clergy and teachers would have you thinking the crackers and grape juice at the Protestant church was just as good or was the same thing, when it’s not.
• And the push (which seems to continue today) for Catholics to not talk about any of this stuff out loud for fear of offending someone.

Most of this stuff is only just starting to come back in the last 10 years or so.
I’m not a big traditionalist, but the absence of all of these things was noticeable growing up, and it bothered me because my mother was pre-Vatican II and had taught me to pray the Rosary and revere the Eucharist, etc from when I was young.

 

[commenter]

You do realize the majority of Protestantism is still pro-life right?

Then I apologize, and stand corrected

 

[OddBird]

I’m also not a fan of Catholics being expected to water down their beliefs or “go along to get along” or make our churches look less “Catholic” by taking out all statues and kneelers, in order to serve some ecumenical interest.

Yes, of course. And I don’t think there can be authentic dialogue where one or both partners are asked to water down who they are.

It’s just the “it’s useless to talk to heretics” stance I’m not at ease with, because I’m convinced a real dialogue, non aggressive but asserting confidently what one believes, is the path to restoring unity (and when I day real unity I mean restoring full communion with Rome).

 

[TULIPed]

kneelers were often removed etc.

Really? This is TERRIBLE, and (as you know) I’m not Catholic!! I wish we had kneelers. One time we joined my extended family at Easter mass. We were late (of course). We were in the standing room only part of the church in the back. Had to kneel on the floor. That was in interesting experience. Hard on the old knees, but also very reverential and moving. I became kind of a fan of the idea of mortification during that moment.

 

[TULIPed]

Pro life in theory. I can’t remember the last time I heard a sermon on it, sadly.