Eh question

[mercygate]

. . . You said that Masturbation IS NOT a mortal sin. Those on this thread are saying, it CAN BE. That is where the argument comes from. . . .

Correction: The Catechism says that masturbation IS a grave (i.e., mortal) sin. It also says that given certain conditions, it CAN BE venial.

Whichever way you cut it, it ain’t good.

Where do we get this idea that venial sin is “OK”?

 

[bella5110]

Lets see, by Church Law I need to go once a year. So why can I not talk? I tried to make the point that even if I were Hitler I could still talk, but it seems you disregard me because I am more of a sinner than you. How sad.

I am sorry if I am more sinful than you, or you believe that I sound like a protestant. I try to do what I can. I have not been to confession in about two months, anyone want to judge me on that? It seems that is what you are doing, telling me to shut up because I am sinful.

You said that Masturbation IS NOT a mortal sin. Those on this thread are saying, it CAN BE, and it seems usually is. That is where the argument comes from. And you do not believe everything in the Catechism if you believe that Masturbation IS NOT a mortal sin. The Catechism states that it can be and as mercygate shows, usually is.

Ok, the reason I asked you to state the seven deadly sins is this, wouldn’t Masturbation fall under Lust? Lust is common in many teens, that does not make it right. Also, Pride is the first sin, and the origin of all sins. It seems that you have told a lot of people that because they are sinners, they cannot talk on this subject. That is pride.

A lone Raven

You know what is sad? People of non-Catholic religions to see how sad this discussion is.
I know why you asked about the seven deadly sins, and teens as young as 10 years old do not fall under lust because they are not old enough to carry a fantasy. even at five years old. No matter what I say, you misinterpret it. IT IS NOT A MORTAL SIN AT 5 YEARS OLD. Don’t tell me what is pride etc…you need to go to confession if you want to talk. The Blessed Mother said to go once a month. Therefore, that is what I do. Once a year, I’m sure you’d forget about all of your sins, Corvidae…

 

[corvidae]

I can assure you that children as young as 10 can indeed lust, I was one of them. I struggled with lust thoughout my teen years. Let me assure you, masturbation is hard enough to stop as it is, let alone when people keep telling you it is normal.

I apologize if you think I am too sinful to talk to you. I suppose I will have to find someone holy enough on these forums that you can stoop to discuss things with. I will tell them what I think, and then they can tell you. Would that work?

Look, it is not a mortal sin of certain criteria are not met. If they do not know that it is wrong, it is not a mortal sin. If they do not freely consent, it is not a mortal sin.

Notice how exploring their own body is not one of those criteria.

Now one could say that their will is not formed enough for them to truly consent, but that is between them and God, not you or I.

One last thing, Medjugore is not officially recognized by the Church, and even if it were, it is private revelation. The Church requires me to confess once a year, I am not sinning if I do that. Now I try to go more often than that, but you cannot say that because I do not go as often as you I am sinning.

I would encourage you to learn a little bit of logic. For example, if you say someone is wrong because of something about them, it is called an ad hominum (to the man) argument. It is a logical fallacy, and should not be used.

I apologize for the pride thing. I was trying to point out something so that you would not be so quick to judge.

A lone Raven

p.s.- The Church states that the age of reason is around 7, thus we can recieve the Eucharist at that age, and that is also the age that I believe we can really choose to sin.

 

[bella5110]

I can assure you that children as young as 10 can indeed lust, I was one of them. I struggled with lust thoughout my teen years. Let me assure you, masturbation is hard enough to stop as it is, let alone when people keep telling you it is normal.

I apologize if you think I am too sinful to talk to you. I suppose I will have to find someone holy enough on these forums that you can stoop to discuss things with. I will tell them what I think, and then they can tell you. Would that work?

Look, it is not a mortal sin of certain criteria are not met. If they do not know that it is wrong, it is not a mortal sin. If they do not freely consent, it is not a mortal sin.

Notice how exploring their own body is not one of those criteria.

Now one could say that their will is not formed enough for them to truly consent, but that is between them and God, not you or I.

One last thing, Medjugore is not officially recognized by the Church, and even if it were, it is private revelation. The Church requires me to confess once a year, I am not sinning if I do that. Now I try to go more often than that, but you cannot say that because I do not go as often as you I am sinning.

I would encourage you to learn a little bit of logic. For example, if you say someone is wrong because of something about them, it is called an ad hominum (to the man) argument. It is a logical fallacy, and should not be used.

I apologize for the pride thing. I was trying to point out something so that you would not be so quick to judge.

A lone Raven

p.s.- The Church states that the age of reason is around 7, thus we can recieve the Eucharist at that age, and that is also the age that I believe we can really choose to sin.

The only thing I will comment is the church cannot recognize an apparition and miracles yet because they are still there. She is still appearing, now whether I believe is a different matter. I think that with all the conversions from there, something must be happening. You owe me no apology and I apologize if you think I was judgiing you, but remember when Jesus said about the splinter in your own eye…

 

[corvidae]

The only thing I will comment is the church cannot recognize an apparition and miracles yet because they are still there. She is still appearing, now whether I believe is a different matter. I think that with all the conversions from there, something must be happening. You owe me no apology and I apologize if you think I was judgiing you, but remember when Jesus said about the splinter in your own eye…

I would say it is good to remember that, also remember that we are not the ones saying that other people are sinners and should not be talking.

I also ask you to remember the spiritual works of mercy
Instruct the ignorant
Admonish the sinner

That is all we are trying to do.

A lone Raven

 

[AlegreFe]

It wasn’t about opinions Al, but what now two priests have told me. It is my business and I do not wish to share it with someone so angry and judgemental. Good luck. I no longer wish to be in this thread any longer. I am happy and at peace with God, and no one will take that from me.

Who is angry and judgemental? It is the way that you are reading my posts. Perhaps you are so full of anger that you think the whole world is also full of anger. I am not being angry at all. Judgemental can be debated, but I don’t like that word “judgemental.” I would rather call it “enlightening” or trying to enlighten you to the Truth. I am only trying to tell you what the Catholic Church teaches. I am not telling you anything of my opinions. But the priests to whom you spoke are stating their own opinions.

I don’t believe in luck either; so saying “good luck” is of no meaning to me.

You’ve said that you no longer wish to be in this thread yet you come back. You say you are at peace yet you get so defensive at our posts and seem to be upset and/or angry. I think you need our prayers so I will continue to pray for you.

 

[bella5110]

Who is angry and judgemental? It is the way that you are reading my posts. Perhaps you are so full of anger that you think the whole world is also full of anger. I am not being angry at all. Judgemental can be debated, but I don’t like that word “judgemental.” I would rather call it “enlightening” or trying to enlighten you to the Truth. I am only trying to tell you what the Catholic Church teaches. I am not telling you anything of my opinions. But the priests to whom you spoke are stating their own opinions.

I don’t believe in luck either; so saying “good luck” is of no meaning to me.

You’ve said that you no longer wish to be in this thread yet you come back. You say you are at peace yet you get so defensive at our posts and seem to be upset and/or angry. I think you need our prayers so I will continue to pray for you.

I think you have serious issues. Pray for yourself.

 

[AlegreFe]

…They simply wanted me to know that God is merciful and a loving God and that teenagers probably would not be condemned. That’s it. Why is that so bad?

You didn’t say that before.

Yes God is merciful and loving, but only if we repent of a mortal sin, which masturbation is. However, If a teenager does not know that masturbation is a mortal sin, then he is not sinning.

But I believe that since God gave us a sense of wanting to do good (grace) I think I would feel “something” if I am doing something that is wrong but no one tells me that it is wrong.

I just can’t believe that a teenager doesn’t feel that something is not normal or natural after masturbating. His possible guilt after performing the “cold” act would eventually take over, hopefully. God works in myserious ways, so I believe that a young person will eventually find out that masturbation is a mortal sin. After that the young person can repent and then God will have mercy on him.

 

[bella5110]

You didn’t say that before.

Yes God is merciful and loving, but only if we repent of a mortal sin, which masturbation is. However, If a teenager does not know that masturbation is a mortal sin, then he is not sinning.

But I believe that since God gave us a sense of wanting to do good (grace) I think I would feel “something” if I am doing something that is wrong but no one tells me that it is wrong.

I just can’t believe that a teenager doesn’t feel that something is not normal or natural after masturbating. His possible guilt after performing the “cold” act would eventually take over, hopefully. God works in myserious ways, so I believe that a young person will eventually find out that masturbation is a mortal sin. After that the young person can repent and then God will have mercy on him.

Masturbation is not a Mortal sin. what is it you don’t understand?? I am bored with this thread goodbye…

 

[AlegreFe]

…This whole arguement comes from my saying that masturbation IS NOT a mortal sin. I talked about teenagers and the like, that’s it. I believe everything in The Catechism and no law is changed from 2,000 years ago until now. but I see God as a loving and merciful God, therefore relating to children, they will not be damned.

What? God’s law has not changed until now? God’s law never changes. Therefore the Deposit of Faith in the CCC never changes.

Masterbation IS a mortal sin.

bella5110:

Corvidae, you really can’t talk, you haven’t gone to confession in how long? Almost sounds like a Protestant saying “I confess to the Father.”

Judgemental are we?

 

[blessedtoo]

I apologize if you think I am too sinful to talk to you. I suppose I will have to find someone holy enough on these forums that you can stoop to discuss things with.

Oh no, that disqualifies me. Better keep my mouth shut. Anyone else holy enough to talk about masturbation?

 

[AlegreFe]

Masturbation is not a Mortal sin. what is it you don’t understand?? I am bored with this thread goodbye…

I think this thread has become a broken record. :whacky:

Offenses against chastity - CCC
By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of
the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. “Both the
Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition,
and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and
have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically
and gravely disordered action.” “The deliberate use of the
sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is
essentially contrary to its purpose.” For here sexual pleasure is
sought outside of "the sexual relationship which is demanded by
the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-
giving and human procreation in the context of true love is
achieved."139

To form an equitable judgment about the subjects’ moral
responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into
account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit,
conditions of anxiety, or other psychological or social factors that
can lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability.

That together with the quotes that we posted here of the 4 priests on the EWTN website Q & A that have said that masturbation is a Mortal Sin… I don’t know what you don’t understand about this fact.

 

[bella5110]

I think this thread has become a broken record. :whacky:

Offenses against chastity - CCC
By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of
the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. “Both the
Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition,
and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and
have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically
and gravely disordered action.” “The deliberate use of the
sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is
essentially contrary to its purpose.” For here sexual pleasure is
sought outside of "the sexual relationship which is demanded by
the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-
giving and human procreation in the context of true love is
achieved."139

To form an equitable judgment about the subjects’ moral
responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into
account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit,
conditions of anxiety, or other psychological or social factors that
can lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability.

That together with the quotes that we posted here of the 4 priests on the EWTN website Q & A that have said that masturbation is a Mortal Sin… I don’t know what you don’t understand about this fact.

IT IS NOT A MORTAL SIN. No where in your passage does it say a mortal sin. your assuming it is.

 

[Mommyof02green]

I think this thread has become a broken record. :whacky:

Offenses against chastity - CCC
By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of
the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. “Both the
Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition,
and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and
have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically
and gravely disordered action.” “The deliberate use of the
sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is
essentially contrary to its purpose.” For here sexual pleasure is
sought outside of "the sexual relationship which is demanded by
the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-
giving and human procreation in the context of true love is
achieved."139

To form an equitable judgment about the subjects’ moral
responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into
account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit,
conditions of anxiety, or other psychological or social factors that
can lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability.

That together with the quotes that we posted here of the 4 priests on the EWTN website Q & A that have said that masturbation is a Mortal Sin… I don’t know what you don’t understand about this fact.

Bella what does it mean when the CCC states:MORAL Cupability? What does it mean to make equitable judgement about ones MORAL responibility?

Bella what does it mean to be intrinsically
and gravely disordered action??

I have one last question for you: I know that this thread has nothing to do with what I’m going to ask you. However, I just wondering, because I believe it would help prove a point.

So with that being said: Do you believe that homosexual acts are a mortal sin???

 

[blessedtoo]

IT IS NOT A MORTAL SIN. No where in your passage does it say a mortal sin. your assuming it is.

2272 Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a** grave offense. **2271 Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion.
2277 Whatever its motives and means, direct euthanasia consists in putting an end to the lives of handicapped, sick, or dying persons.
**It is morally unacceptable. **
2381 Adultery is an **injustice. He who commits adultery fails in his commitment. He does injury to the sign of the covenant which the marriage bond is, transgresses the rights of the other spouse, and undermines the institution of marriage by breaking the contract on which it is based. He compromises the good of human generation and the welfare of children who need their parents’ stable union.
2388 Incest designates intimate relations between relatives or in-laws within a degree that prohibits marriage between them.[180] St. Paul stigmatizes this especially grave offense: “It is actually reported that there is immorality among you . . . for a man is living with his father’s wife… In the name of the Lord Jesus … you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh…”[181] Incest corrupts family relationships and marks a regression toward animality. **

These do not specifically use the words “mortal sin” either. Does that mean they are not?

 

[AlegreFe]

IT IS NOT A MORTAL SIN. No where in your passage does it say a mortal sin. your assuming it is.

It does not have to specifically use the words “mortal sin” for it to be a mortal sin. That is why I also mentioned the quotes that we put from the Priests on the EWTN Q & A website. Those priests clearly stated that masturbation is a mortal sin.

Father Echert:
Objectively speaking, masturbation is a mortal sin, and must
be confessed sacramentally.

Fr. Robert J. Levis:
Dear Carol, The Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith teaches
that masturbation is intrinsically a gravely disordered act, a
mortal sin.

Fr. Vincent Serpa, O.P.:
Maturbation takes genital activity out of its proper
context and makes it a selfish act. Yes, masturbation is a mortal
sin.

Fr. Matthew Habiger OSB:
Yes, masturbation is a serious sin, and must be repented of and
confessed.

As blessedtoo posted quotes from the CCC you will realize that those specific words do not have to be stated.

 

[Mommyof02green]

CCC paragraph 2352:

By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. "Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action." “The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose.” For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of “the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved.”

To form an equitable judgment about the subjects’ moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety, or other psychological or social factors that can lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability.

CCC paragraph 2357:

Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, tradition has always declared that “homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.” They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

We know that Homosexual acts are a MORTAL SIN!
What does the CCC say about them: "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."

Now what does the CCC say about masturbation: masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action."

Masturbation and Homosexual acts are nearly described the same way! Interesting right??? I therefore can conclude that masturbation is a mortal sin!

What is a mortal sin?
CCC paragraph 1857:

For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: “Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent.”

CCC paragraph 1858:

Grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments, corresponding to the answer of Jesus to the rich young man: “Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and your mother.” The gravity of sins is more or less great: murder is graver than theft. One must also take into account who is wronged: violence against parents is in itself graver than violence against a stranger.

Do not commit adultery!

The sixth commandment “Thou shall not commit adultery”. The sixth commandment forbids the actual, physical act of having immortal sexual activity, specifically adultery, which is sex with someone else’s spouse or a spouse cheating on their partner. But this commandment also includes fornication, which is sex between unmarried people, prostitution, pornography, homosexual activity, masturbation, group sex, rape, incest, pedophilia, bestiality, and necrophilia

Did I mention that the book Catholicism for Dummies has Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur?

So Masturbation is against the 6th commandment “Thou shall not commit adultery”. This means it is Grave Matter! So that means it has 1 of the 3 things required to make it a Mortal Sin. Masturbation is Grave Matter! The only other things needed to make it a Mortal Sin is full knowledge and deliberate consent.

I don’t know about you, but I do my best to avoid “Grave Matter”!

 

[Missa_Solemnis]

My boys do follow the proper teachings of the church. Because you didn’ like what my priest said, you are very defensive…maybe you really don’t know the answer and assume everything is a sin. I can tell just the type of religious fanatic you are, and those are the worse kinds. I’d not want you near my boys, the’yd be scared to death of burning in hell. good luck.

This is one of the most often repeated arguements in debates like this…

“I dont want to live in fear…”

“if thats the case shouldnt we spend every day in fear…”

“radical catholicism is living in fear”

Well…If youve read the Bible lately St. Paul says that he has to make out his salvation in not just fear…but trembling. (And God knows we modern day Catholics have even more temptations than good old St. Paul…)

Also…we are taught that it is better to cut off our afflicted body parts than sin with them (ouch…apply that to masturbation)…and finally for an extra-biblical touch ( we are Catholics after all…quoting from the bible alone is a bit to unlike us )
the saints who instead of giving into lust would throw themselves into thorn bushes, cold rivers, and snow.

And finally about following the teachings of the Church…one priest is not THE Church. Thats like saying that one American is the United States of America and Minor Outlying Islands…

If we want to (and its not recommended) but like I said…if we want to pin “the Church” down to a figure. Well it would be the Pope…or Mary. And while Mary’s supreme chastity is a silent testimony…Popes past and present have very publicly declared masturbation a sin. Most recent would be the Servant of God John Paul II’s works of the Theology of the Body.

…maybe you really don’t know the answer and assume everything is a sin. I can tell just the type of religious fanatic you are…

But the Virgin Mother and the Holy Father are probably just some of those radical fanatics anyway.

I mean who are countless Church theologians…Popes…and Saints compared to a parish priest.

But lastly…for a real black and white lay down of what masturbation is regrding to its gravity.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Trust me…it doesnt get much clearer than that.

 

[Catolico]

I also ask you to remember the spiritual works of mercy
Instruct the ignorant
Admonish the sinner

That is all we are trying to do.

A lone Raven

Yes corvidae, I believe this is what you´re trying to do here. And I´m very grateful to you and the others on this thread who are also doing a great job on this :yup: .Obviously is not working too well for everyone on this thread, but I for one have learned tremendously here and thank you all very much for spreading the TEACHINGS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.
I will keep everyone on this thread on my prayers tonight. God Bless

 

[Mommyof02green]

Originally Posted by book Catholicism for Dummies page 193-194:

The sixth commandment “Thou shall not commit adultery”. The sixth commandment forbids the actual, physical act of having immortal sexual activity, specifically adultery, which is sex with someone else’s spouse or a spouse cheating on their partner. But this commandment also includes fornication, which is sex between unmarried people, prostitution, pornography, homosexual activity, masturbation, group sex, rape, incest, pedophilia, bestiality, and necrophilia

Sorry guys, I made a mistake on the page numbers.
The quote came from pages 191-192. I was going to change the post, however the 20 minutes had passed.

So I thought I would post again letting you all know I made a mistake on the page numbers…in case you wanted to look it up for youself.

God Bless