Either Catholics or Mormons have it right...

[HowNich]

Christianity is a New Testament religion. Christ fulfilled the law. Christ and the Apostles were not polygamist. Catholic Bishops are not married. Christ and the Twelve Apostles were not married. Catholics have it right.

And yet the New Testament allows bishops to be married…

 

[Stephen168]

And yet the New Testament allows bishops to be married…

You can see how easily a tangent can get started and why you must in this case.

 

[JeanMichel]

My friend, you had better learn about the difference between Christianity and Mormonism. The God that Mormons pray to and worship is an “exalted” man. A God of flesh and blood. Jesus, in his human nature, prayed to a God who is Spirit and who was, is, and shall always be. This is the God we Christians pray to.

How can Mormons be monotheistic when by their own admission they believe in three separate Gods, in violation of the first commandment. In Christianity we believe in only one God. That they, and you, do not or cannot understand the Holy Trinity as presented and described in scripture is a matter of non-belief or non-understanding of God’s word. Yes, it is a mystery because the truth of it is beyond the human ability to understand. To believe in the Christian God is a true gift of the Holy Spirit. To deny this is blasphemy.

Jesus taught us who was His God. And He stated many times that He was God when He said that He was the Son of God. And a most emphatic YES that belief in the Trinity does save mankind. I see from your comments that you really know nothing about Christianity.

Mormons refuse to accept and understand the Triune God of Christianity. It matters a great deal in God’s plan of salvation, for if it didn’t the Trinity would have not been revealed to us. Jesus never ignored it and we do not put words in His mouth. Please read and understand what is written in the Bible, for if you did you would not make such inane statements.

For an answer to these questions, I recommend that you learn about true Christianity, for I see you know nothing about it.

I would like to know where you have gotten all your information on Christianity from because you most certainly have missed the boat.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

Never address the questions, but address the sensational. Stay on the sensational because all arguments fall apart if you are forced to address the Bible and the Word, Jesus Christ. Let’s make this simple. Do not attempt to mis-characterize Mormonism (never have they said flesh and blood, NEVER; they have only stated flesh and bone. If you don’t know the topic, best hold your tongue rather than lie). Please answer the following questions:

1. Where in the Bible does Jesus demand that all his followers must believe in the Trinity to be saved?
2. What does Jesus say man must do to be saved?
3. What are the two great commandments? Where is the Trinity found in these two commandments.
4. When did the requirement of belief in the Trinity become the law of Christianity.

Do not equivocate, do not change the topic, but answer the questions and then let’s talk about what is “TRUE” Christianity and how organized religion fails the test completely!

 

[JeanMichel]

People on this board and others like it (MAD) seem perfectly happy to carry on these conversations/debates, this is obvious from the number and longevity of religious discussion sites. Why do you feel the need to direct or set the parameters of what is acceptable to discuss? Do you spend time admonishing people on other boards like MAD and CARM? If you don’t, why not? And if you find yourself continually sighing deeply over the posts why do you not find a more “uplifting” way to spend your time?

I only participate here because it is my choice and it is the only site I know. I don’t visit the other sites and have never visited other sites.

I don’t set parameters for any conversation, but I am willing to call a spade a spade when I see it. When individual lie, when they are dishonest, or when they sensationalize it is appropriate to call it as such. This is the Catholic site; it is the example to all Christians on how be to the best Christians, how to follow Christ in fullness, while filled with the Holy Spirit. Do you disagree with this or do wish to shirk that responsibility or do you simply think that Catholics should not be held to a higher standard.

There is not a problem with debate, but debate truth. Proclaim it, support it with the words of the ECF and other scholars. Ask questions to gain understanding of others beliefs then share you own. Share what is beautiful about the Church; share what is uniquely wonderful about Marian veneration. Share the holiness you feel when before the Eucharist. Do these things rather than lie, sensationalize, and imitate the works of evil.

The gospel is love. Do you deny this? If so, what role does love play in your view of the Gospel? What does scripture state about the role of love in the life of a Christian?

 

[HowNich]

You can see how easily a tangent can get started and why you must in this case.

Funny you say this when I was responding to your own post. But you must do so (and still not address the point), I understand.

 

[JeanMichel]

I myself have a great love and need for this religious organization we call the Catholic Church. It’s where I found Christ to be many years into my life. I love the mystical body of Christ , the fact that we are all joined together in Him, receiving Him is so many beautiful ways via the sanctifying Sacraments, the Mass. I see myself as a leaf among many connected to Him, the tree of life. I once had a special place away from any organized religion, it was two very large granite rocks that came together, with a waterfall running between them falling into a large mountain pool. I would get between the rocks with the water below my feet and fish the hole below. I always brought one bear with me for this special place . I was young; this is what we did when fishing.

Every year when I was there it was special, at this place I would give thanks to God, a God that I did not know as I know now, but I knew he was there. This was my religion then. All of this and so much more brought me to the Catholic faith, the last place I ever would have looked. Now my special place is at the Holy Mass. I am there with the body of Christ both in heaven and on earth. I see others as just as important as me, loved no less by my Father. You take away any part of the Catholic Church, you part a little of Christ Himself. Christ is the Catholic Church and yes we are the members of His body. I still have my special place in the mountains. But in my life now all places are special as all places contain Christ. I could not say I do not need my family, just as I could not say I do not need His Church. His Church reaches out to the whole world and says here I AM. Come to my table together and feed on me. I will bring you back. It is truly the best place to find Jesus as He is. All other forms of Christianity flow from the Mass whether known or not. All other forms of cults who whisper the name of Jesus can only whisper this name because of the Catholic Mass. They all live down stream so to speak. Like it or not.

I so enjoy your words and by them the manner in which you demonstrate your Christianity. This is an example of what I find so great about Catholicism; when lived fully it yields this beautiful Spirit.

This is the way that will lead to great Evangelism among Mormons and all other non-Catholics. This is the quality of example that the Saints gave and that I year to give and fail so miserably. As I have said so often, I am broken and a sinner that falls so short of being a good servant and disciple of Christ.

Thank you and God bless you.

 

[JeanMichel]

I assume then, since you have such disdain for organized religion, that you have found the fullness of truth on your own. It is you who know what is important and what is not. How is this different from any organized religion?

JeanMichel, defending truth is a noble exercise. Each of us has a little different tact and varying degrees of patience and charity and, no doubt, it can get ugly at times. But tolerance of error is not charity. Pretending that we all believe the same thing is not a virtue, but an offense against truth.

Steve, you make me laugh. I find the truth in the writings of the ECF. I submerse myself in the lives of the Saints. Organized religion and a criticism of its shortcomings is not a rejection of the Church completely; at least not from my position. Where others are content to attack other churches, I find that it is better to clean up our own porch, to take the beam out of our own eye, before we attack the beliefs of others. We should be promoting unity of the faithful and have faith that God and the Holy Spirit will bring all to the unity of faith. We just need to put out a welcome mat.

Defending truth is best done by living truth; not imitating the works of the evil.

 

[Stephen168]

Funny you say this when I was responding to your own post. But you must do so (and still not address the point), I understand.

I would think, if you were not starting a tangent, you would have finished your thought about how Bishops being allowed to married supports a religion, claiming to be restored Christianity, practicing polygamy. But you didn’t finish your thought.

 

[KathleenGee]

Hownich,

My error…my very first study was the Old Testament…and in the midst of preparing for Christmas and raking my mind…yes, Moses is Prophet and followed the patriarchs, of course beginning with Abraham.

However, Christ told us of the permanency of marriage. If there is a dispute, then we must look back to the origins of early Christianity and how the Apostles and their followers and succeeding generations, it is very evident that Christ was referring only to one man and one woman, and that in the eternal life beyond, there is no marriage in heaven.

 

[Javl]

Javl,

You did not address ParkerD’s post that you were quoting. The verses given by ParkerD clearly show that Moses was considered to be a prophet. Also, you referenced Flavius Josephus to ParkerD. ParkerD then provided a quote by Josephus that showed that he considered Moses to be a prophet, and you didn’t address that point in your responding post either. In addition, the Jewish Encyclopedia has a section called “His Prophetic Powers” in its article on Moses. Also, the Jewish website “Judaism 101” refers to Moses as “the greatest of the prophets”. So I am unsure why you are claiming that Moses was not a “true prophet”.

HowNich:

If you understood my reply to my friend Parker you will know that I did answer his questions. As for Judaism, I am in my fourth year of the study of Judaism and I know of what I speak. There are three basic sects in Judaism: Orthodox, Conservative, and Reformed. Each of these are composed of other individual sects and each of these with its own sets of belief and understanding. All this seems to mirror Christianity and its myriads of denominations and sects. I subscribe to and follow the teachings and beliefs of the Orthodox ( which is similar to the Catholic Church ). They follow the original teachings and are akin to the Essenes. This is where I get my information from. What the others say and teach is of interest, but in compari
son holds no water. Shalom.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Javl]

That is just a tangent to the claim by Mormons that polygamy is a Christian practice. But it was never taught or practiced by Christ and the Apostles. A Christian has not and would not practice polygamy. A person seeking the truth would question a religion invented in 19th century American which claims to be a restored Christian Church. Polygamy is an example of why that claim is false.

I would also like to add that Swedenborgianism, Christian Science, Jehovahs Witnesses, The Way international, and so on, all have claimed to have been commissioned by God to restore His Church. Need I say more?

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Jim_Dandy]

This does not address the issue that I was responding to, which was about whether Moses was a “true prophet” or not.

The only prophet who concerns me is the self-proclaimed “prophet,” Joseph Smith, whose occupation was listed as “glass looking” in 1826 court documents. Smith claimed he could find buried treasure by looking through magic peep stones in his hat. The Book of Mormon has been proven to be a fraud by science as well as documentary evidence. Mormonism flourishes now, but it cannot endure. Eventually the world will find out the truth.

Jim Dandy

 

[SteveVH]

Steve, you make me laugh.

Glad I could humor you.

I find the truth in the writings of the ECF. I submerse myself in the lives of the Saints. Organized religion and a criticism of its shortcomings is not a rejection of the Church completely; at least not from my position.

So is it the religion you reject or the members of that religion and their shortcomings?
Or do you decide, from what “organized religion” has given to you, what you will retain and what you will throw away?

Where others are content to attack other churches, I find that it is better to clean up our own porch, to take the beam out of our own eye, before we attack the beliefs of others. We should be promoting unity of the faithful and have faith that God and the Holy Spirit will bring all to the unity of faith. We just need to put out a welcome mat.

Unity is the desire of us all, I think, but we do not throw away truth in order to reach this goal. Of course, we should all live exemplary lives. But, as you say you have studied the ECF’s, you would do well to see how they reacted to heresy. They pulled no punches and insisted on adhering strictly to faith they received from the Apostles. They didn’t water down anything in the interest of unity.

Defending truth is best done by living truth; not imitating the works of the evil.

Aside from your implication that the posters here are imitating the works of evil, I have no problem with this statement. Unless we put flesh on the words of the Gospel the whole thing is a waste of time.

 

[Jim_Dandy]

You mix up scriptures and context in your attempt to “prove” that Mormons believe in three Gods, but in talking to Mormons they say they are monotheists in that they pray to one God without any question or choice of praying to any other God.

–QUOTE–

I will preach on the plurality of Gods . . . when I have preached on the subject of the Deity, it has always been the plurality of Gods . . .

I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and that the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods.

The Teaching of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Deseret Book Company, 1976, 1989, page 370

–END QUOTE–

Why do Mormons teach this three distinct personages thing? Why does it matter? This topic is of such great importance to churches, but Jesus saw fit to virtually ignore it! Who dares to put words in Jesus’ mouth to dictate what is important and what is not?

“Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ” ~ Saint Jerome. Jesus ignored the Commandments? Preposterous. “If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments” (Mt 19:17). Belief in multiple Gods is a violation of the First Commandment.

Jesus taught to repent and be baptized; that is a directive. Then he told us to love God and to love one another. Why don’t churches focus on this? Why do they not compete on repenting and loving?

Love God? or Love Gods? That is the question. We are taught to love our neighbor regardless of the false gods they may believe exist. Love the sinner, but not the sin. Do you think Mormons should repent of their polytheistic (or henotheistic) beliefs? Or do you think it’s okay with God that they believe He is only one of many Gods, in violation of His First Commandment? Mormons believe that there are countless “Gods” in the universe, but “only three pertain to us.”

At a time where there should be unity in the world of Christianity where all raise their voices in joyous praise in remembrance of the birth of their Savior, we sit here segregating ourselves on a doctrine that Jesus did not teach, emphasize, or demand belief in! This is an invitation to repent…each of us. Instead, let’s try to overlook the small stuff and begin learning how to love one another.

You seem to be ignorant – or at least oblivious – of what Jesus taught.

You have apparently made up your own religion and think it superior to the religion taught by Jesus. Tell me, is your interpretation of the Scriptures infallible? If not, you could be wrong, and I would be wrong to follow your interpretation. In fact, it would be dangerous to my spiritual health and immortal soul.

Jim Dandy

 

[catholic-rcia]

Here in my Catholic opinion on why believing in the Most Holy Trinity is key to our salvation. Believing that Christ is our everything, surrendering to His will is what saves us. (death on a cross) But most of all it enables us to love others with His love as we have no love in us. Standing in a line, doing good works to eventfully become a god brings earthly pleasure and yes it is disguised as feeling really good about oneself. It gives no life at all. In accepting the fall of mankind as a good thing, a kind of challenge to prove worthiness is the devil spinning us like a top. We become like him and in the end we forget Jesus and look to ourselves as if we are important. We can miss it all even though we had the perfect chance to gain everything through Him.

When I was 17 years old I was working late at night in what was called the Army Navy store in Sacramento California. I happened to be in there late at night about 3 days before Christmas. While I was working my co-partner told me that I could take whatever I wanted as a Christmas gift, that he would do the same. The problem was he was not the owner of the store. On that night I choose to steal an army jacket knowing it was wrong while my conscience asked me not to do it.

A few weeks later I was sitting in my truck downtown when I noticed this homeless man walking across the street in front of me. It was raining and foggy, cold and damp. This homeless man was barefoot and shivering with no coat. I got out of my truck and called to him; he turned not knowing what to expect. As I began to walk to him I started noticing what looked to be a staff infection on his face, arms and hands. I handed him the coat that I had taken and told him he needed it more than I. Looking back I can recall how good it made me feel that I had done such a great deed for another. Jesus was not in my life then, little did I know how close he really was. As the self glory began to dissipate I began to feel the pain of loosing a really good army jacket, yet telling others about my great deed helped make up for the loss.

A few years back, maybe two or three years after my Baptism I was driving on main street remembering that my friend had told me his wife had given birth to his second child. At the same moment I caught an Italian restaurant from the corner of my eye. The spirit clearly asked me to go in and get them a gift card. Joe does not cook and his wife should get a break. My first thought was I have 25 dollars in my pocket; do I want to give it up or just forget the prompting, as if it never happened? Then you think about how happy they will be, the thanks and praise that will surely follow. Tempted from two sides of sin I went in to chase my reward. As I proudly gave Joe the Gift he thanked me and it felt about as good as when I gave that homeless man what I thought was my coat. But as a fairly new Catholic, learning the game I told Joe “don’t thank me Joe, God asked me to get it for you, honestly, I don’t think I wanted to” He laughed as if I was joking, I told him I was serious.

I was in Salt Lake for business, I was prompted by the spirit to go to the Cathedral and pray. While I was in silence I began to hear singing that seemed to come from the floors. Under me somewhere was the children’s choir practicing. I felt the spirit of God and could only give thanks for those special moments given. The world called me back so I got up and started working my way to the back East exit. As I got closer to the door I heard a women’s voice singing what sounded like the psalms. I turned the corner and there she was sitting on a bench inside with her shopping cart outside the door. As I walked past her and through the door the Spirit almost in words asked me to give her what I had in my wallet. Again it was 25 dollars, but I did not want to listen so I continued on to my car, thinking about lunch. About half way there I heard the prompting again and this time took note. When you see yourself for whom you really are, what else is there to do than shed a few tears. These are the times we need Christ in our lives to help us back up. Christ took me by the hand and led me back to the women… He had me tell her this “I am sorry for passing you by, here, take this, its not from me, it’s from Jesus to you.” The women gave me a hug that I did not deserve, and then you understand it’s from Jesus, you shed a few more tears.

Jesus tells us we must love our neighbors as ourselves. Jesus goes on to tell us that we must love God above all things, with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind, and all your strength.**’”

It’s not about how much we love ourselves, or even about how much we love others. Rather its all about how much God loves us, the more we accept His love the more we are able to pass His love on to others. Peace and joy comes from knowing His will, choosing His will, while doing battle against our own, by allowing the Holy Sacraments to work in our lives through the Church…

There is only One God…first command. Break this and everyhting seems good yet a bit distorted.

 

[Miriam1947]

I found a new website. The stories I have read so far are about those who have left Mormonism but have found Christ.

None are Catholic, so far. But, they are getting closer to the truth. :clapping:

answeringlds.org/index.html?artWhatChild.html

 

[KathleenGee]

Miriam,

I hope JeanMichael reads the link you just provided and why there is such a great need for people to know the truth of Jesus Christ.

 

[alacoque]

kathleen,
This could be said of many churches.
Catholics are wonderful christians. I’m very fond of their docrtine.
I am a conservative Lutheran. Missouri Synod. Our beliefs are similar in many points.
However, I do not judge anyone’s salvation. If God has blessed you with His Spirit you can be sure to receive many other blessings as your devotion continues.
I’m sure this has already started with your Christian walk.

God bless,
bluelake

Hi bluelake: Just curious…what’s keeping you?? (from “coming home”)

you sound kind of on the way…

Peace –

 

[Stephen168]

This is from an account of Orson F. Whitney, who was an Apostle for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints:

Orson F. Whitney:

A Catholic Opinion.–Many years ago there came to Salt Lake City a learned doctor of divinity, a member of the Roman Catholic Church. I became well acquainted with him, and we conversed freely and frankly. A great scholar, with perhaps a dozen, languages at his tongue’s end, he seemed to know all about theology, law, literature, science and philosophy, and was never weary of displaying his vast erudition. One day he said to me: “You Mormons are all ignoramuses. You don’t even know the strength of your own position. It is so strong that there is only one other tenable in the whole Christian world, and that is the position of the Catholic Church. The issue is between Catholicism and Mormonism. If we are right, you are wrong; if you are right, we are wrong; and that’s all there is to it. The Protestants haven’t a leg to stand on. If we are wrong, they are wrong with us, for they were a part of us and went out from us; while if we are right, they are apostates whom we cut off long ago. If we really have, as we claim, the apostolic succession from St. Peter, there was no need for Joseph Smith and Mormonism; but if we have not that succession, then such a man as Joseph Smith was necessary, and Mormonism’s attitude is the only consistent one. It is either the perpetuation of the Gospel from ancient times, or the restoration of the Gospel in latter days. My reply to this clear and concise statement was as follows: “I agree with you, Doctor, in nearly all that you have said, but don’t deceive yourself with the notion that we “Mormons” are not aware of the strength of our position. We are better aware of it than anyone else. We have not all been to college; we cannot all speak the dead languages; we may be ‘ignoramuses,’ as you say; but we know we are right, and we know you are wrong.” I was just as frank with him as he had been with me.

Orson F. Whitney claimed John M. Reiner was the “learned Doctor of Divinity.” John M. Reiner was a lay languages (not divinity) professor at Villanova. He was a convert from Judaism and a famous biblical scholar at the time. He escorted Grover Cleveland from New York to Philadelphia when Cleveland gave the commencement address there in 1902. The ‘Improvement Era’ claims he visited Utah in January 1898 on personal business and addressed some Mormons in the Tabernacle on a Sunday afternoon. The ‘Improvement Era’ was a publication of B.H. Roberts, and in it he responded to at least one of Reiner’s letters before Reiner asked him to stop publishing his letters. There is no record that Reiner and Whitney (Salt Lake City Treasure) ever met during Reiner’s visit. Reiner was still alive when Whitney first published it; so maybe he didn’t give the name of the ‘learned man’ because the ‘learned man’ could deny saying it.

This quote is a small part of a complete writing of Whitney. In it, Whitney wants to show how others believe Mormonism is ignorant and uncharitable. The way he refutes the others argument is the same way he does it here: We know we are right/smart/wise or even a ‘so what.’ No real argument just a ‘we know it is true,’ statement.

To me this is good logic. Not a single Protestant Church had the authority of God to create a new church.

And neither did Joseph Smith, John Smyth, Ellen White, John Noyes, Charles Russell, William Miller, Jan Matthias, etc…… It is a false dilemma; bad logic.

I find it hard to swallow that a ‘learned’ man would seriously make a false dilemma statement like this: “If {the Catholic Church} really have, as we claim, the apostolic succession from St. Peter, there was no need for Joseph Smith and Mormonism; but if we have not that succession, then such a man as Joseph Smith was necessary, and Mormonism’s attitude is the only consistent one. It is either the perpetuation of the Gospel from ancient times, or the restoration of the Gospel in latter days.“

If apostolic succession was important, the Catholic ‘learned’ man would believe it was apostolic succession or nothing. He would also know that the Catholic Church is a Church with apostolic succession. He would also know the Mormon Church was less than 70 years old; therefore it did not have apostolic succession any more than any other 19th century Protestant denomination. A ‘learned’ man would not see an either-or with Mormonism. He would see it with Orthodoxy, but never with a new upstart religion. As irrational as this quote is; it makes sense to Mormons and makes them feel good. So I guess Whitney did his job.

 

[KathleenGee]

Steve…agree about just the statement by Whitney…

Perhaps another thread to start : How do we define Truth? Can we even agree on the proper tools to help us find truth and discern what is false?

There is such a huge rift between Judeo Christian salvation history and the Mormon use of new origins and common thoughts from the Bible used by both Jews and Christians meaning different things and using parts of them to support their findings in Mormonism.