Elizabeth Smart's father announces he is gay

[SunshineGrandma]

How many times does the commandment have to be given to individuals before we realize the commandment is for all?

Why do you believe the Old Testament over the words of Saint Paul? Saint Paul is referring to celibacy here. 1 Corinthians Chapter 7:

7 I should still like everyone to be as I am myself; but everyone has his own gift from God, one this kind and the next something different.

8 To the unmarried and to widows I say: it is good for them to stay as they are, like me.

9 But if they cannot exercise self-control, let them marry, since it is better to be married than to be burnt up.

10 To the married I give this ruling, and this is not mine but the Lord’s: a wife must not be separated from her husband-

11 or if she has already left him, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband – and a husband must not divorce his wife.

 

[SunshineGrandma]

And risk being killed by an angel of the lord?!

 

[Horton]

October 6, 1854, Orson Hyde of the Quorum of the Twelve discussed the Savior’s wedding recounted in the Bible:

“…Jesus was the bridegroom at the marriage of Cana of Galilee, and he told them what to do. Now there was actually a marriage, and if Jesus was not the bridegroom on that occasion, please tell who was. If any man can show this, and prove that it was not the Savior of the world, then I will acknowledge I am in error. We say it was Jesus Christ who was married, to be brought into the relation whereby he could see his seed, before he was crucified.” (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 2, p. 82, 83).

I guess this is how they get around that question. Since it doesn’t specifically say in the Bible that Jesus wasn’t married, they can assume he may have been married. Of course that would entail overlooking all evidence to the opposite, that there is not one shred of evidence that Jesus was married, in fact there is much information to be certain he was not.

 

[gazelam]

Catholics believe Jesus is essential for our salvation while it seems that LDS believe it is marriage and procreation.

You make the Catholic position sound like a “Once Saved Always Saved” Protestant. I could mis-characterize Catholicism in a similar by saying “Well, Latter-day Saint believe in Jesus is essential for our salvation, but Catholics believe that a priest has to be involved for the absolution of every sin”. I believe that both faiths can be characterized as relying on Christ to make available to ability to repent of our sins. The principle difference here is that Latter-day Saints believe that marriage is a commandment whereas Catholics disagree.

Jesus, starting with the early Church, gave women the right to choose to remain unmarried and devote their life to serving God as a celibate. For the first time women had a say in their destiny and were not treated as property!

Where in scripture do you believe Jesus gave such a choice to women, allowing women to purposely refuse a legitimate and loving marriage offer and still gain Eternal Life?

October 6, 1854, Orson Hyde of the Quorum of the Twelve discussed the Savior’s wedding recounted in the Bible:

“…Jesus was the bridegroom at the marriage of Cana of Galilee, and he told them what to do. Now there was actually a marriage, and if Jesus was not the bridegroom on that occasion, please tell who was. If any man can show this, and prove that it was not the Savior of the world, then I will acknowledge I am in error. We say it was Jesus Christ who was married, to be brought into the relation whereby he could see his seed, before he was crucified.” (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 2, p. 82, 83).

Two Points:

1. An Apostle does not speak for The Church of Jesus Christ unless all twelve of the Apostles have consented to the teaching. An Apostle is free to express an opinion. In a similar way a Pope can express an opinion without the the opinion being a formal Catholic teaching.
2. The Journal of Discourses is not an official publication of The Church of Jesus Christ.

gazelam:

How many times does the commandment have to be given to individuals before we realize the commandment is for all?

Why do you believe the Old Testament over the words of Saint Paul? Saint Paul is referring to celibacy here. 1 Corinthians Chapter 7:

You neglected to include verse 26 which states:

“So this is what I think best because of the present distress: that it is a good thing for a person to remain as he is.”

It seems to me that Paul is giving temporary guidance during some sort of difficult circumstance. Once the “present distress” is over, different guidance would be expected.

I hope this helps…

 

[Sarcelle]

N

Where in scripture do you believe Jesus gave such a choice to women, allowing women to purposely refuse a legitimate and loving marriage offer and still gain Eternal Life?

How can there be a loving and legitimate marriage if it is under coercion? Not all marriage offers are legitimate. Not if immense social pressures come into play. Otherwise, you wouldn’t have gay people pretending to be straight and then leaving the marriage after several years.

The Catholic view of marriage is as a grace filled Sacrament and is predicated on the free will of both parties involved in the marriage, the man and woman.

They confer the Sacrament on each other and together they welcome children from God and build a family, both of which involves grace.

Now if you are basically forced into a marriage, how can it be a loving marriage?

If there is any degree of coercion involved, the Catholic Church does not consider this a valid marriage.

Jesus actually spoke of eating his flesh and drinking his blood as a requirement for eternal life. He lost a lot of his followers because of that. However he never mentioned marriage as a requirement for eternal life.

 

[CourtingTex]

As a member of the Church, their privacy should be respected. Period.

 

[SadPotato]

You don’t know he lied to her, at all. None of us do. She may have known he was gay all along. It happens often.

True. It’s also possible that he was pressured to some degree into marrying a woman.

 

[Padres1969]

Indeed. As did the Catholic Church. The Church, bishops and orgs like Knights of Columbus campaigned heavily for it and supported financially. And now Archbishop of San Francisco Salvatore Cordileone was one of the architects of the proposition.

Thankfully it was ruled unconstitutional.

 

[gazelam]

How can there be a loving and legitimate marriage if it is under coercion?

Now if you are basically forced into a marriage, how can it be a loving marriage?

If there is any degree of coercion involved, the Catholic Church does not consider this a valid marriage.

What force and coercion exactly are you referring to? The coercion of a commandment of God?

 

[Sarcelle]

This is where we have to agree to disagree. Marriage was never a commandment. This is like putting burdens on people requiring something of them which may be out of their control.

Marriage is and never will be a requirement for eternal life according to the Catholic Church.

Yes, if one is forced into a marriage there is coercion.

No two ways about it.

Besides “Thou shalt get married” was never one of the Ten Commandments.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Indeed. Many of the early Christian saints actually had a marriage offer on the table and refused it in order to be single and consecrate themselves and their lives to Jesus. In some cases they were martyred due to their refusal to marry.

Even today, Catholics who choose seminary or religious life generally forgo marrying in order to commit themselves to their vocation of being a priest or a religious. In no way does this keep them from eternal life.

 

[Horton]

It would have remained a private matter had Mr. Smart not given an interview letting the world know.

 

[SunshineGrandma]

Gazelam - Can a divorced woman choose to stay single and still go to (the highest level of)
heaven, according to LDS teaching?

Does an LDS woman need Jesus AND a man to get her to heaven?

Thank you.

 

[SunshineGrandma]

Where in scripture do you believe Jesus gave such a choice to women, allowing women to purposely refuse a legitimate and loving marriage offer and still gain Eternal Life?

There are many examples in scripture where women had the freedom to follow Jesus, which strongly implies they were not married. Whether or not they were proposed to is not mentioned, nor should it matter. The fact is, women had the choice to live a life without a husband and pursue a religious vocation.

We know that Mary, the Blessed Mother, was given to John after Jesus’ death. She obviously didn’t have a husband.
John 19:26-27

In all the synoptic gospels, women followed Jesus around, which implies they possibly did not have a husband and/or children.

Here is a fascinating story about the Samaritan woman at the well and how she was killed by Nero. There is no mention of a husband, only sons, and she was a great evangelist known for bringing many to Christ. Again, an example of a woman living a life of great religious purpose outside of marriage.

https://www.oca.org/saints/lives/20...-samaritan-woman-her-sons-and-those-with-them

 

[SadPotato]

What force and coercion exactly are you referring to? The coercion of a commandment of God?

The coercion of LGBTQ+ people into heterosexual relationships/marriages.

 

[Horton]

What force and coercion exactly are you referring to? The coercion of a commandment of God?

That would be teaching little girls and teens they are never able to obtain the highest level of heaven on their own merits. Teaching young women that your god thinks so little of them nothing they do will allow them to have eternal life. Teaching little girls their primary (and only really) role in life is to marry and have children regardless of what she wants. Teaching little girls that getting married is a commandment of God.

That is force & coercion.

 

[Sarcelle]

Or vice versa

An LDS man would need a woman to get acceptance into the highest level of heaven.

Either way, it sends a clear signal that single people are second class.

 

[ZMystiCat]

How many times does the commandment have to be given to individuals before we realize the commandment is for all?

1. The cited verse never said all people throughout history should do it.
2. Adam and Eve and Noah and his family were in a very unusual position, in that the continuation of the human population relied on them procreating. They couldn’t afford to be celibate. We can.

 

[RebeccaJ]

What force and coercion exactly are you referring to? The coercion of a commandment of God?

Where in scripture do you believe Jesus gave such a choice to women, allowing women to purposely refuse a legitimate and loving marriage offer and still gain Eternal Life?

Implying that refusal of a marriage proposal is a sin, is coercion.

Joseph Smith threatened women and their families with bad spiritual consequences, for spurning his advances. That’s the example you follow, that you think is perfectly OK and normal. It is not.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Horton:

As far as the command (not commandment) to multiply and replenish the earth, where does it say ALL people should do this?

Genesis 9:1 God blessed Noah and his sons and said to them: Be fertile and multiply and fill the earth.

How many times does the commandment have to be given to individuals before we realize the commandment is for all?

Why don’t you believe Jesus, when he clearly explained marriage is not a commandment for all. He clearly taught, those who can serve the kingdom of heaven in a state of celibacy, should.