Eloping?

[mcgoose]

I have been reading this thread with much interest, enough to get me out of lurking status and creating an account so that I can respond.

My bf and I have been dating for 8 years and have been long distance for the past 4 (separated by 250 miles…not too bad). We have talked about marriage and even have a date set for next summer. But he hasn’t proposed because I am so paralyzed with fear about telling my family these same circumstances that you have.

We were both raised Catholic, me moreso than him. It’s not a big part of his family’s identity; they wouldn’t care where he marries. But my family…whoa nelly. Maybe I’m wrong. Maybe if I sit down with them and tell them that I’m on the atheist side of the agnostic spectrum, they will understand why it would be a bad thing for me to lie in front of a priest and say I will raise my kids Catholic.

But I feel like my parents would be judged by the rest of my family for not raising me to be a little Catholic sheep, despite sending me to parochial school for 12 years. I feel like the arguments/debates/discussions may not be worth even fighting over. Maybe these are irrational fears. Maybe my family will surprise me with tolerance. Who knows.

OP, I’m scared poopless to get married. Not because I worried about spending the rest of my life with my bf, but because I’m worried about a lifetime of potential scorn from my family. I have no insight to give. Just my empathy and friendly internet hugs.

 

[shainski]

…I do not say that to be rude or hurtful, but in charity …You will be having children with a shack-up boyfriend, not a spouse.

…Because any way you slice it, you’ll only be playing pretend.

Again, I say this in charity.

Ha, ha, that is pretty funny (if it is some kind of satire).

I just finished watching the Help last night, and it sounds exactly like Hilly not lending the $75 to her maid BECAUSE SHE is being so charitable.

When Yule May is short $75 – the difference between sending both her twins sons to college and sending only one – Hilly refuses to loan her money, on the grounds, as Aibileen reports, “That a true Christian don’t give in charity to those who is well and able. Say it’s kinder to let them learn to work things out themselves”

The fact of these circumstance are - BlueEyes and her fiance will be married in the mind of the state - if not the church. That, in itself, offers a substantial benefit apart from “pretending”. Their lives and fortunes will be legally bound.

But that is not the question asked. BlueEyedLady wants to understand how her future in-laws will feel with one option verses another - when none of the options are to their liking. I think it is wise for her to be asking this.

BlueEyedLady is not the one who took the church wedding off the table - her fiance did. Sure, she could insist on something that she doesn’t believe and her fiance won’t go along with - but why?

Life has a way of revealing things to us in our own time. Who knows what the future will hold? Perhaps she and her husband will reconsider their beliefs at some time. At that point, it will benefit us all to not have alienated her to the point of no return.

I hope you have a wonderful marriage - and have peace with your families. And I hope that God blesses you with children.

 

[Havard]

Yep. That’s one of the 30 reasons we are considering eloping. There really is no way that we can marry that they can support. The idea of getting married and much of his family not being there would hurt him. Worrying about offending his family or them boycotting is not something I want to deal when it comes to my wedding.

Either way, his family will know within the next few weeks that he is an atheist. We will be sharing our wedding plans when we go visit them next month, which is why we are trying to figure out what those will be now.

They did want us to get engaged. When we moved in together they gave him friendly reminders to propose to me soon, so that we would at least be on the path to something “solid”. They were thrilled when he did.

But that thrill we go away once we sit down to share our plans. So that’s why I’m here to gain perspective and get ideas for how this can be as painless as possible for everyone involved. And of course, so that we can have a nice, romantic wedding, no matter how we do it.

Hello again, BlueEyedLady.

I don’t mean to push on this, but you never responded to my earlier posts. Would you ever consider pushing back the wedding? I ask because it just might make things less complicated, especially with law school coming up in the Fall. You mentioned that you guys are living together. I don’t know what your schedules are like now, but if you are used to spending a lot of time together, unfortunately that will not likely be nearly the case next year. I’m not saying that you can’t do that, of course it’s your choice, but it is a rough way to start out your honeymoon year.

Again, I don’t want to be Mr. Doom-and-Gloom, it’s just that I would want someone to give it to me straight if I were in your shoes.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

OP, I’m scared poopless to get married. Not because I worried about spending the rest of my life with my bf, but because I’m worried about a lifetime of potential scorn from my family. I have no insight to give. Just my empathy and friendly internet hugs.

Oh no, don’t be afraid to get married. If he’s a man worth marrying he’ll help you get through anything your family throws at you. But you guys need to keep this in mind: A wedding is only the tip of the iceberg. When you start having kids there will be the issue of baptism. That issue will only get worse when your siblings and cousins start having children and have theirs baptized. Ditto for confirmation and first communion. There will be Christmas and Easter, when the rest of the family is at mass and you are staying home to celebrate privately with your husband and children. You may have to deal with your family proselytizing to your children against your wishes. All of these issues are things that my fiance and I have talked about over and over and over again, because they are so huge.

But even with all that in mind, don’t fear marriage. Even if you didn’t marry this guy what are the odds that you would bring someone home that your family would approve of? Its not like you and a devout Catholic are going to be able to build the same kind of healthy and lifelong relationship that you will be able to have with someone who shares your beliefs.

Please don’t let your family’s religious beliefs dictate your choice to marry. You deserve all of the happiness in the world.

 

[PatriceA]

This is not true – it is not a sin to attend an invalid wedding. Generally, priests will counsel family members to attend.

Incorrect. Priests will generally counsel family members to attend OR NOT to attend. It can very well lead to scandal if a Catholic attends an invalid wedding of a Catholic.

Honestly, I find this whole thread a bit strange. An atheist asking for advice from Catholics on how to proceed in eloping with a former Catholic that is now a practicing atheist himself and his very Catholic family is not aware of the situation. The couple plans to spring the news of the sons’s now non belief of God AND their elopement plans?? No advice in the world can possibly make this situation better until the family is aware of the son’s beliefs. Personally, it would take awhile for me to get over that shock if it was my child. I would not appreciate being informed of any elopement or small wedding plans until I had the chance to digest that news. I think the best advice is to let the family heal from the shock before proceeding with any further advice about an elopement. And the next best advice is to seek advice from non-Catholics about an elopment, not on a Catholic message board.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Hello again, BlueEyedLady.

I don’t mean to push on this, but you never responded to my earlier posts. Would you ever consider pushing back the wedding? I ask because it just might make things less complicated, especially with law school coming up in the Fall. You mentioned that you guys are living together. I don’t know what your schedules are like now, but if you are used to spending a lot of time together, unfortunately that will not likely be nearly the case next year. I’m not saying that you can’t do that, of course it’s your choice, but it is a rough way to start out your honeymoon year.

Again, I don’t want to be Mr. Doom-and-Gloom, it’s just that I would want someone to give it to me straight if I were in your shoes.

We have considered several different dates for the wedding. The earliest is this upcoming fall, the latest is Spring 2014. And yes, we do live together. If we have a big, traditional thing it will be closer to Spring 2014, but probably fall 2013. If we elope or have a simple ceremony it will be within the next 6-9 months.

The idea of trying to cram everything in while in law school does sound daunting. I’ve started building a pretty decent career, but that will have to be put on hold. Chances are I will not work my first year at least. Fortunately we have budgeted for that and can live just fine on his salary. The good news is that I do well on little sleep and thrive on stress

 

[SanctaMommy]

I think that the worst part about your post is that you did not answer any of my questions or address any of my concerns. You simply used it as an excuse to insult me, my fiance, and our soon to be marriage. That’s not charitable. But I do have a better understanding as to the origins of your CAF name.

What is not charitable is supporting or encouraging your attempt to marry a Catholic outside of the Church.

It is never uncharitable to point out the Truth to someone who is sinning in a grave manner, even if that person doesn’t like it. In fact, we are obligated to help others achieve holiness. Would it be kind of me to say, “Here is my advice! Have a great wedding! Best of everything!” when you are putting your soul and your husband’s soul at risk? I do not think so.

I view some marriages that occur outside of The Church as legitimate. Only Catholics are obligated to marry in The Church. Two Jews, or two Methodists, or two Espiscopalians can certainly enter into a sacramental marriage by participating in the marital rites of their own faiths.

You might not believe that you and your husband have souls. You might not believe that your potential children will have souls, or that your grandchildren will have souls. But my dear, I do. I do believe you have a soul, and I believe your husband has a soul that has been permanently changed by the gifts of the Holy Spirit he received at his confirmation. And for that reason, I tell you the Truth. Any marriage outside of a sacramental Catholic one (unless you obtain a dispensation) will be illegitimate.

In charity.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

What is not charitable is supporting or encouraging your attempt to marry a Catholic outside of the Church.

It is never uncharitable to point out the Truth to someone who is sinning in a grave manner, even if that person doesn’t like it. In fact, we are obligated to help others achieve holiness. Would it be kind of me to say, “Here is my advice! Have a great wedding! Best of everything!” when you are putting your soul and your husband’s soul at risk? I do not think so.

I view some marriages that occur outside of The Church as legitimate. Only Catholics are obligated to marry in The Church. Two Jews, or two Methodists, or two Espiscopalians can certainly enter into a sacramental marriage by participating in the marital rites of their own faiths.

You might not believe that you and your husband have souls. You might not believe that your potential children will have souls, or that your grandchildren will have souls. But my dear, I do. I do believe you have a soul, and I believe your husband has a soul that has been permanently changed by the gifts of the Holy Spirit he received at his confirmation. And for that reason, I tell you the Truth. Any marriage outside of a sacramental Catholic one (unless you obtain a dispensation) will be illegitimate.

In charity.

:banghead: Yes, I know that in the eyes of the Catholic church my marriage will be invalid. I get that. In fact, I pointed that out in my first post. But hammering on that and using it as an excuse to insult me the way that you did is very uncharitable.

My question was essentially, what would be the best way possible to get married and cause as little hurt and stress as possible for everyone involved. You didn’t even attempt to answer that, you just took to insults.

 

[SanctaMommy]

:banghead: Yes, I know that in the eyes of the Catholic church my marriage will be invalid. I get that. In fact, I pointed that out in my first post. But hammering on that and using it as an excuse to insult me the way that you did is very uncharitable.

My question was essentially, what would be the best way possible to get married and cause as little hurt and stress as possible for everyone involved. You didn’t even attempt to answer that, you just took to insults.

No, I told you to do whatever was cheapest, easiest and the least inconvenient. I would drive down to the JOP and just sign the paperwork, and tell the family honestly that you had handled the legal aspect of the marriage. Show them the respect of not having a mock ceremony.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

No, I told you to do whatever was cheapest, easiest and the least inconvenient. I would drive down to the JOP and just sign the paperwork, and tell the family honestly that you had handled the legal aspect of the marriage. Show them the respect of not having a mock ceremony.

Well unfortunately I do believe in vows, and I do want to say them. And if we don’t elope, I do have family that would like to see me get married. I’m not going to snub them so that his family isn’t offended. And really, inviting my family and not his would be very rude. And I, nor my family view non Catholic ceremonies as mockeries.

The reason that this situation is so complicated is because there are so many people with different beliefs involved. My parents are Protestants, my brother and his family are non believers, as are me and my fiance, and his family is Catholic. Trying to have a romantic wedding, whether or not its a small ceremony or an elopement or even a traditional wedding is important to me. But I have a lot of religious outlooks and values to try to accommodate. Throwing my wedding in the toilet because of their beliefs is not showing respect, it’s allowing someone else to have too much control over my life.

 

[Luna_Lovecraft]

Not to deny your atheism, but I think you may want to take into account the fact that your fiance is a Catholic by baptism which means any marriage without a priest or deacon witnessing it would not be considered sacramental and could cause difficulties down the line if he wants to return to receiving communion, etc.

So, I suggest you talk to his priest to see if you can arrange a simple ceremony in which you can say your vows before the priest/deacon with just a couple of witnesses that wouldn’t entail all the trappings of a formal affair. Then, you and your family could have a nice gathering afterwards to celebrate–also keeping it simple, such as a family picnic, for instance.

What I’m saying is he may not want to burn all his bridges no matter what he says he can’t accept about the faith he was brought up in. Such things have a much deeper hold on our lives than we often imagine. It’s just something you may want to consider.

Blessings on you and your families.

BEL, I’m going to second this post. I know you’ve already said that your fiance has refused the idea, but I truly think it’s worth another consideration. You’re young and your fiance is young. You might not think you’re young, but when you get to my age you’ll realize you guys are whipper-snappers.

I say at least consider the idea of having your wedding witnessed by a priest/deacon for the same reason Della suggested it - you never know. Yes, you’re atheists and have every intention of remaining so for the rest your lives. But you never know. Your thinking or his thinking might change. Maybe when you have a family. Maybe when one of you gets really sick. Maybe as you are and have a few more life experiences under your belt. You never know.

I was raised Catholic and stopped practicing my faith in college, a not uncommon story in Catholic circles. I stayed away for years. At one point I called myself agnostic and practiced no faith. At one point I was studying to convert to Judaism, the religion all four of my grandparents were born into. when I lived in SE Asia I studied Theravada Buddhism. Long spiritual story short, when I hit 40 I felt the pull to return to Catholicism, another not uncommon story.

I’m not saying that your boyfriend will want to practice Catholicism in the future, but I think it’s unwise to disregard the idea that he might. Like I said before, you just never know. And if he should ever want to, if you guys don’t have a “Catholic approved” marriage he’ll have to jump through a lot of hoops to get back to receiving the Eucharist.

I’m not sure that having a priest or deacon witness a wedding such as yours would entail you violating your believes by making a promise before God. Frankly, I just don’t know. You could always explain your situation to a priest and ask him what’s possible.

Luna

 

[BlueEyedLady]

BEL, I’m going to second this post. I know you’ve already said that your fiance has refused the idea, but I truly think it’s worth another consideration. You’re young and your fiance is young. You might not think you’re young, but when you get to my age you’ll realize you guys are whipper-snappers.

I say at least consider the idea of having your wedding witnessed by a priest/deacon for the same reason Della suggested it - you never know. Yes, you’re atheists and have every intention of remaining so for the rest your lives. But you never know. Your thinking or his thinking might change. Maybe when you have a family. Maybe when one of you gets really sick. Maybe as you are and have a few more life experiences under your belt. You never know.

I was raised Catholic and stopped practicing my faith in college, a not uncommon story in Catholic circles. I stayed away for years. At one point I called myself agnostic and practiced no faith. At one point I was studying to convert to Judaism, the religion all four of my grandparents were born into. when I lived in SE Asia I studied Theravada Buddhism. Long spiritual story short, when I hit 40 I felt the pull to return to Catholicism, another not uncommon story.

I’m not saying that your boyfriend will want to practice Catholicism in the future, but I think it’s unwise to disregard the idea that he might. Like I said before, you just never know. And if he should ever want to, if you guys don’t have a “Catholic approved” marriage he’ll have to jump through a lot of hoops to get back to receiving the Eucharist.

I’m not sure that having a priest or deacon witness a wedding such as yours would entail you violating your believes by making a promise before God. Frankly, I just don’t know. You could always explain your situation to a priest and ask him what’s possible.

Luna

I can’t make it a valid marriage because I am not open to children, and I certainly won’t be baptizing or raising any in the CC. The idea of lying to anyone, much less to a room full of people, clergy included while getting married strikes me as wrong, and I think that it would cheapen the whole thing. Besides, wouldn’t we have to do the premarital counseling through the CC?

If there is a way to make it valid while not lying or violating his or my moral code I would be open to it, not for him to be able to return but for the sake of his family.

 

[aloe]

If there is a way to make it valid while not lying or violating his or my moral code I would be open to it, for the sake of his family.

That is very kind of you. You could always drive up to the church and talk to a priest. Just to cover all your bases and see if the priest has any ideas.

 

[1inICXC]

Yep. That’s one of the 30 reasons we are considering eloping. There really is no way that we can marry that they can support.

Nope, they CAN support 2 atheists doing whatever kind of wedding they choose as none of you are bound by Cristian Law. They can support your wedding as much as they could support the wedding of 2 muslims, hindus etc. They may not be happy about accepting that their son is an atheist, but if they come around with that, the wedding should be a non-issue.

And the OP is wrong about sayimg that a priest would recommend they attend the wedding of their Catholic son, to an atheist, outside of the Church. Not so if you are both atheist.

I really feel for those parents. The work, dedication, love and sacrifice that goes into instilling the Christian faith…only to see it tossed to the wind and denied to the future generations of your family members, OUCH, OUCH! Hope it all goes as smoothly as it possibly can.

 

[maryjk]

I really feel for those parents. The work, dedication, love and sacrifice that goes into instilling the Christian faith…only to see it tossed to the wind and denied to the future generations of your family members, OUCH, OUCH! Hope it all goes as smoothly as it possibly can.

:sad_yes::sad_yes::sad_yes:

 

[1inICXC]

No, I told you to do whatever was cheapest, easiest and the least inconvenient. I would drive down to the JOP and just sign the paperwork, and tell the family honestly that you had handled the legal aspect of the marriage. Show them the respect of not having a mock ceremony.

Sanctamommy, you are missing the point here, she is an atheist! She will not be answering to God for the lack of a priest at her ATHEIST wedding or for her choice to “shack-up”. Admonishing the sinner works when we are talking about Christians.

 

[chevalier]

As of right now, I would be unable to foot the cost of a wedding reception, much less a big overnight party (not like I’d weep for the absence of getting plastered and stupid to poor music at my wedding), at least without using money that could be spent on a lot of things associated with changing your status, including the necessary contigency reserves that I’d feel like keeping. At the same time, it’s been a while since I last was 18, and I’m not getting any younger, so I wouldn’t want to delay my wedding by a year or more to put aside money for that big party.

Hence I’d probably limit myself to a church ceremony with all the right people invited, followed by a reception, no overnight party, and I really could live without the kind of party that’s done round here, in fact I would make sure it didn’t happen even if I could afford it, since I don’t want any shameful display, so I might even set it to 10 a.m. and serve only a limited quantity of alcohol, although I can’t imagine anyone from my imaginary list of guests getting plastered and humiliating himself. The music would be Chopin or jazz or something along these lines.

One of my sisters gave no party either. There was a small reception at the parents’.

 

[Havard]

BEL, I’m going to second this post. I know you’ve already said that your fiance has refused the idea, but I truly think it’s worth another consideration. You’re young and your fiance is young. You might not think you’re young, but when you get to my age you’ll realize you guys are whipper-snappers.

I say at least consider the idea of having your wedding witnessed by a priest/deacon for the same reason Della suggested it - you never know. Yes, you’re atheists and have every intention of remaining so for the rest your lives. But you never know. Your thinking or his thinking might change. Maybe when you have a family. Maybe when one of you gets really sick. Maybe as you are and have a few more life experiences under your belt. You never know.

I was raised Catholic and stopped practicing my faith in college, a not uncommon story in Catholic circles. I stayed away for years. At one point I called myself agnostic and practiced no faith. At one point I was studying to convert to Judaism, the religion all four of my grandparents were born into. when I lived in SE Asia I studied Theravada Buddhism. Long spiritual story short, when I hit 40 I felt the pull to return to Catholicism, another not uncommon story.

I’m not saying that your boyfriend will want to practice Catholicism in the future, but I think it’s unwise to disregard the idea that he might. Like I said before, you just never know. And if he should ever want to, if you guys don’t have a “Catholic approved” marriage he’ll have to jump through a lot of hoops to get back to receiving the Eucharist.

I’m not sure that having a priest or deacon witness a wedding such as yours would entail you violating your believes by making a promise before God. Frankly, I just don’t know. You could always explain your situation to a priest and ask him what’s possible.

Luna

Perhaps I’m misunderstanding what you’re saying, but I’m fairly certain that Catholic priests cannot perform the service you and Della seem to be suggesting.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Perhaps I’m misunderstanding what you’re saying, but I’m fairly certain that Catholic priests cannot perform the service you and Della seem to be suggesting.

I didn’t think so either. And I didn’t think just having a priest or deacon there would make it valid. Now I’m confused and scouring the internet…

 

[Rina_Badal]

Honestly, I find this whole thread a bit strange. ** An atheist asking for advice from Catholics on how to proceed in eloping with a former Catholic that is now a practicing atheist himself and his very Catholic family is not aware of the situation. The couple plans to spring the news of the sons’s now non belief of God AND their elopement plans?? No advice in the world can possibly make this situation better until the family is aware of the son’s beliefs. Personally, it would take awhile for me to get over that shock if it was my child. I would not appreciate being informed of any elopement or small wedding plans until I had the chance to digest that news. ** I think the best advice is to let the family heal from the shock before proceeding with any further advice about an elopement. And the next best advice is to seek advice from non-Catholics about an elopment, not on a Catholic message board.

God bless you PatriceA!
Peace,
Rina