End Times Speculation - A Different View

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SteveVH - I will answer this in context of the End Times Speculation as it does indeed tie into the subject. I may also further clarify the “End of the World” view of the Baha’is.

Baha’u’llah has said that there is no independent Force of Evil and that Satan in Scriptures refers to the lower Nature of Man.
Thank you. This, indeed, puts things in perspective. We would say that Baha’u’llah has fallen for one of the oldest deceptions put forth by the evil one, the father of lies, as Jesus refers to him. That is, he doesn’t exist at all. Therefore no one is in danger. Do as you will. No eternal consequences.

As Christians we believe that all of mankind is in a battle for our souls. The jealous and arrogant angel, Lucifer, was thrown out of heaven, along with a third of the other angels. He is now known as Satan, the great dragon, the enemy, the adversary, the serpent of old, the evil one, the Devil … He is referred to throughout both the Old and New Testaments multiple times. He is the reason that we need a Savior.

One cannot claim to accept the Bible as Scripture and deny the existence of Satan. Jesus didn’t come to show us how to be nice people. He came to save us from the evil one. We are in a spiritual battle. That is the foundation of the story of salvation history.

Thank you for clearing this up because it makes all the difference in this discussion. The end of the world is the end of Satan, his demons and all evil in the world. It has already been accomplished by Christ, but yet to be fully realized in time. It will only be realized when Christ returns. The fact that there is still evil, death and decay in the world is enough evidence that Baha’u’llah cannot be the second coming. He, himself died.

God bless.

Steve
 
Thank you. This, indeed, puts things in perspective. We would say that Baha’u’llah has fallen for one of the oldest deceptions put forth by the evil one, the father of lies, as Jesus refers to him. That is, he doesn’t exist at all. Therefore no one is in danger. Do as you will. No eternal consequences.

As Christians we believe that all of mankind is in a battle for our souls. The jealous and arrogant angel, Lucifer, was thrown out of heaven, along with a third of the other angels. He is now known as Satan, the great dragon, the enemy, the adversary, the serpent of old, the evil one, the Devil … He is referred to throughout both the Old and New Testaments multiple times. He is the reason that we need a Savior.

One cannot claim to accept the Bible as Scripture and deny the existence of Satan. Jesus didn’t come to show us how to be nice people. He came to save us from the evil one. We are in a spiritual battle. That is the foundation of the story of salvation history.

Thank you for clearing this up because it makes all the difference in this discussion. The end of the world is the end of Satan, his demons and all evil in the world. It has already been accomplished by Christ, but yet to be fully realized in time. It will only be realized when Christ returns. The fact that there is still evil, death and decay in the world is enough evidence that Baha’u’llah cannot be the second coming. He, himself died.

God bless.

Steve
You are a tireless warrior, Steve. And far more patient than I 😃
 
That is, he doesn’t exist at all. Therefore no one is in danger. Do as you will. No eternal consequences.
I’m generally observing this thread, but just a quick note to point out, Steve, that the non-existence of Lucifer in Baha’i theology, does not mean that there is no evil, nor does it mean that there are no consequences or danger.

Life is about consequences and danger. There is no black sun giving out darkness, but darkness still is a reality.

Turning ourselves away from God does not mean that we are worshiping Lucifer, it just means we are not accepting the resplendent light that God has gifted us, and we choose to live our lives in various shades of darkness. You can be in the light and fill your cup with His grace, or you can be in the darkness and suffer the consequences of this decision.

Lucifer does not even come into the equation when good and evil is viewed in this light (if you excuse the pun 🙂 )

.
 
I’m generally observing this thread, but just a quick note to point out, Steve, that the non-existence of Lucifer in Baha’i theology, does not mean that there is no evil, nor does it mean that there are no consequences or danger.

Life is about consequences and danger. There is no black sun giving out darkness, but darkness still is a reality.

Turning ourselves away from God does not mean that we are worshiping Lucifer, it just means we are not accepting the resplendent light that God has gifted us, and we choose to live our lives in various shades of darkness. You can be in the light and fill your cup with His grace, or you can be in the darkness and suffer the consequences of this decision.

Lucifer does not even come into the equation when good and evil is viewed in this light (if you excuse the pun 🙂 )

.
Thank you, Servant, but you and all of the Baha’i faithful are deluded if you deny the existence of Satan and his demons. Peter advises us “Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.” (1Peter 5:8) You are not even aware that you need to be saved. This, in itself, is very telling. And very dangerous.

Who do you think Christ referred to when he said “You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.” (John 8:44)

You say you accept the Christian Scriptures as the word of God, yet you reject the words of Christ himself, time after time, whether it is his bodily resurrection or his words concerning his second coming or his words concerning the devil. In fact, I wonder if there is anything in the Christian Scriptures which you do accept.

Bottom line, I reject your position on this in the strongest terms and believe that you are unwittingly cooperating with the enemy by spreading this falsehood to others.

You will be in prayers.

Steve
 
Thank you, Servant, but you and all of the Baha’i faithful are deluded if you deny the existence of Satan and his demons. Peter advises us “Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.” (1Peter 5:8) You are not even aware that you need to be saved. This, in itself, is very telling. And very dangerous.

Who do you think Christ referred to when he said “You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.” (John 8:44)

You say you accept the Christian Scriptures as the word of God, yet you reject the words of Christ himself, time after time, whether it is his bodily resurrection or his words concerning his second coming or his words concerning the devil. In fact, I wonder if there is anything in the Christian Scriptures which you do accept.

Bottom line, I reject your position on this in the strongest terms and believe that you are unwittingly cooperating with the enemy by spreading this falsehood to others.

You will be in prayers.

Steve
Thankyou Steve, I will leave it at that.

I am happy in my delsuion. It seems a very reasonable and logical explanation which correlates very very closely (if not exactly) with testable and empirical reality.

I don’t see it as a delusion, but if you do, I am comfortable with that 🙂

God bless you

🙂

.
 
Thankyou Steve, I will leave it at that.

I am happy in my delusion. It seems a very reasonable and logical explanation which correlates very very closely (if not exactly) with testable and empirical reality.

I don’t see it as a delusion, but if you do, I am comfortable with that 🙂

God bless you ;).
Thank you Servant, that was where to leave it 👍

The “Tablet of Ahmad” hits on this very subject and as it is a Prayer that is mostly about conditions at the End of the World/End of Times, it is appropriate to this Thread - Link to full prayer - bahaiprayers.org/ahmad.htm

Extract from Prayer -

**…"And if thou art overtaken by affliction in My path, or degradation for My sake, be not thou troubled thereby.

Rely upon God, thy God and the Lord of thy fathers. For the people are wandering in the paths of delusion, bereft of discernment to see God with their own eyes, or hear His Melody with their own ears. Thus have We found them, as thou also dost witness.

Thus have their superstitions become veils between them and their own hearts and kept them from the path of God, the Exalted, the Great.

Be thou assured in thyself that verily, he who turns away from this Beauty hath also turned away from the Messengers of the past and showeth pride towards God from all eternity to all eternity…"**

God Bless all and Regards Tony
 
What does the Catholic Church say about inherent possibilities of unity with other religions?

Who’s Hands is the End of the World In?

Christians and Muslims, we have many things in common, as believers and as human beings. We live in the same world, marked by many signs of hope, but also by multiple signs of anguish. For us, Abraham is a very model of faith in God, of submission to his will and of confidence in his goodness. We believe in the same God, the one God, the living God, the God who created the world and brings his creatures to their perfection.
–John Paul II, pope, Casablanca, August 19, 1985

“Our Christian conviction is that Christ is also the messiah of Israel. Certainly it is in the hands of God how and when the unification of Jews and Christians into the people of God will take place.”
–Benedict XVI, God and the World, October 2000

“I greet and thank cordially all of you, dear friends belonging to other religious traditions; firstly the Muslims, who worship the one living and merciful God, and call upon Him in prayer. I really appreciate your presence, and in it I see a tangible sign of the wish to grow in recipricol trust and in cooperation for the common good of humanity.”
–Francis I, pope, address to religious leaders, Rome, March 20, 2013

“A new international order based on the goals of the United Nations…an order that is able to give adequate solutions to today’s problems based on the dignity of the human being, on an integral development of society, on solidarity among nations rich and poor, on the sharing of resources and the extraordinary results of scientific and technical progress.”
–Karol Wojtyla (Pope John Paul II), World Day of Peace, Rome, January 1, 2004

“A united humanity will be able to confront the many troubling problems of the present time: from the menace of terrorism to the humiliating poverty in which millions of human beings live, from the proliferation of weapons to the pandemics and the environmental destruction which threatens the future of our planet.”
–Benedict XVI, December 27, 2005

“[We need the] construction of a world community, with a corresponding authority,” to serve the “common good of the human family”.
–Benedict XVI, December 3, 2012

God Bless and Regards Tony
 
I believe the reason that Baha’is deny the existence of Satan, Lucifer, Angels, Noah’s ark and flood, and the miracles of the Prophets is because these are all connected to the realm of the Supernatural. Since Baha’u’llah had no miracles (which would mean he had no connection the Supernatural realm), everything supernatural is presented as a metaphor as an excuse to silence the critics as to why Baha’u’llah had no miracles.
 
I believe the reason that Baha’is deny the existence of Satan, Lucifer, Angels, Noah’s ark and flood, and the miracles of the Prophets is because these are all connected to the realm of the Supernatural. Since Baha’u’llah had no miracles (which would mean he had no connection the Supernatural realm), everything supernatural is presented as a metaphor as an excuse to silence the critics as to why Baha’u’llah had no miracles.
Dear friend, that’s just blatant lies.

I suggest you read a book called Revelation of Baha’u’llah by Adib Taherzadeh, where a myriad miracles of Baha’u’llah are fully described.

Please show humility

.
 
Dear friend, that’s just blatant lies.

I suggest you read a book called Revelation of Baha’u’llah by Adib Taherzadeh, where a myriad miracles of Baha’u’llah are fully described.

Please show humility

.
Hi Servant,

Which part was lies? The denial of the supernatural things and labeling them a metaphors or Baha’u’llah having no miracles?

I Googled that book. 3 Vol and more than a thousand pages. I’ll be frank: Did Baha’u’llah raise the dead? Cure the leprosy? Cure the blind? split the Nile? Have something like Moses’s staff? or anything similar? 🙂
 
Hi Servant,

Which part was lies? The denial of the supernatural things and labeling them a metaphors or Baha’u’llah having no miracles?

I Googled that book. 3 Vol and more than a thousand pages. I’ll be frank: Did Baha’u’llah raise the dead? Cure the leprosy? Cure the blind? split the Nile? Have something like Moses’s staff? or anything similar? 🙂
Quite happy with frankness. The answer is yes.

What you said here in your previous post is the boxing equivalent of punching someone below the belt.

Have you studied the life of Baha’u’llah to claim He performed no miracles?

.
 
Quite happy with frankness. The answer is yes.

What you said here in your previous post is the boxing equivalent of punching someone below the belt.

Have you studied the life of Baha’u’llah to claim He performed no miracles?

.
🙂
I Googled and Googled and Googled and I came up with no miracles from Baha’u’llah. But, since you seem to have studied the life of Baha’u’llah and claim he had the aforementioned miracles, then show me:
Where did Baha’u’llah raise the dead? Cure the leprosy? Cure the blind? split the Nile? Have something like Moses’s staff? or anything similar?
🙂
 
🙂
I Googled and Googled and Googled and I came up with no miracles from Baha’u’llah. But, since you seem to have studied the life of Baha’u’llah and claim he had the aforementioned miracles, then show me:
Where did Baha’u’llah raise the dead? Cure the leprosy? Cure the blind? split the Nile? Have something like Moses’s staff? or anything similar?
🙂
I would be interested in this as well. Instead of directing us to some 1000 page outside source why don’t you instead just tell us of the miracles of Baha’u’llah. I can tell you of most, if not all of Christ’s recorded miracles from memory. Can you do the same with Baha’u’llah?

The answer I have heard given most frequently is that you don’t believe miracles really matter and so you don’t focus on them. While this may be a convenient position for you to take, it is not at all convincing.
 
What does the Catholic Church say about inherent possibilities of unity with other religions?

Who’s Hands is the End of the World In?

Christians and Muslims, we have many things in common, as believers and as human beings. We live in the same world, marked by many signs of hope, but also by multiple signs of anguish. For us, Abraham is a very model of faith in God, of submission to his will and of confidence in his goodness. We believe in the same God, the one God, the living God, the God who created the world and brings his creatures to their perfection.
–John Paul II, pope, Casablanca, August 19, 1985

“Our Christian conviction is that Christ is also the messiah of Israel. Certainly it is in the hands of God how and when the unification of Jews and Christians into the people of God will take place.”
–Benedict XVI, God and the World, October 2000

“I greet and thank cordially all of you, dear friends belonging to other religious traditions; firstly the Muslims, who worship the one living and merciful God, and call upon Him in prayer. I really appreciate your presence, and in it I see a tangible sign of the wish to grow in recipricol trust and in cooperation for the common good of humanity.”
–Francis I, pope, address to religious leaders, Rome, March 20, 2013

“A new international order based on the goals of the United Nations…an order that is able to give adequate solutions to today’s problems based on the dignity of the human being, on an integral development of society, on solidarity among nations rich and poor, on the sharing of resources and the extraordinary results of scientific and technical progress.”
–Karol Wojtyla (Pope John Paul II), World Day of Peace, Rome, January 1, 2004

“A united humanity will be able to confront the many troubling problems of the present time: from the menace of terrorism to the humiliating poverty in which millions of human beings live, from the proliferation of weapons to the pandemics and the environmental destruction which threatens the future of our planet.”
–Benedict XVI, December 27, 2005

“[We need the] construction of a world community, with a corresponding authority,” to serve the “common good of the human family”.
–Benedict XVI, December 3, 2012

God Bless and Regards Tony
And this is to prove what? That we recognize the truth present in other religions, the dignity of every human person, and pray for a united human family? I couldn’t agree more!

But I assure you, this was not in reference to the end of the world. I have already given you the official Catholic position from the Catechism on this matter.
 
Thankyou Steve, I will leave it at that.
I thought you might.
I am happy in my delsuion.
Many people are.
It seems a very reasonable and logical explanation which correlates very very closely (if not exactly) with testable and empirical reality.
Of course it does. Satan is not stupid. He is the most cunning and deceitful creature in existence. It makes sense to those who reject the words of Christ who spoke about the devil and hell more than he spoke about heaven. He went about expelling demons from the possessed. Do you believe he was just expelling man’s dark side?
I don’t see it as a delusion, but if you do, I am comfortable with that 🙂
And that, my friend, is exactly where the enemy wants you; comfortable in your delusion. Kind of like a fish who is comfortable chomping down on a worm with a hook hidden inside.

:signofcross:
 
And that, my friend, is exactly where the enemy wants you; comfortable in your delusion. Kind of like a fish who is comfortable chomping down on a worm with a hook hidden inside.

:signofcross:
SteveVH, but we are Fools for Christ aren’t we, but not deluded 😃 :highprayer:

MJ
 
This is interesting, I have always admired the accuracy of Native American prophesy and its deep Spiritual Connections, I found this comment

"There is a remarkable difference between Western prophecies and those of native peoples. When Western prophets see into the future they envision Armageddon. The end of the world. When native prophets look down that same path they see the completion of a great cycle. A change of worlds.

The reason for these vastly different views is found in the way time is experienced. In the West time is history. There is a past, a present, and a future; a beginning, a middle, and an end. Like a stick. Native peoples experience time as a cycle. There are four stages, such as the seasons: spring, summer, autumn, and winter. Like a hoop. Each stage is a preparation for the next. At the center of the hoop is a still timelessness, like that of meditation; the
eternal present around which the cycles revolve. The visions of native prophets occur at that center point from where the cycles of change can be seen. There is no end…"

From this link - texfiles.com/features/prophecies.htm

God Bless and Regards Tony
 
This was such a great vision!

BLACK ELK


When Black Elk was nine years old, he had yet to see his first Wasichu, or white man. There were still vast herds of buffalo, and the Indian way of life, Black Elk believed, would last forever. That year, 1872, he had a vision in which he traveled four ascents with his people, which he understood to be the four generations he would know.

At the first ascent, the people camped in a circle. At the center of the circle stood the holy tree. But when they camped at the second ascent Black Elk saw the leaves falling from the sacred tree.

At the camp of the third ascent he saw the Black Road of conflict before them. He saw, too, that the nation’s hoop was broken, the sacred tree was dying and all its birds were gone. There he saw that “all of the animals and fowls that were the people ran here and there, for each one seemed to have his own little vision that he followed and his own rules; and all over the universe I could hear the winds at war like wild beasts fighting… It was dark and terrible about me, for all the winds of the world were fighting. It was like rapid gunfire and like whirling smoke, and like women and children wailing and like horses screaming all over the world.” The third ascent was the time of the generation living in the 1850’s.

At the fourth ascent a Voice said “Behold this day, for it is yours to make. Now you shall stand upon the center of the earth to see…” Then Black Elk stood on the highest mountain of them all, “and round about beneath me was the whole hoop of the world. And while I stood there I saw more than I can tell and I understood more than I saw; for I was seeing in a sacred manner the shapes of all things in the spirit, and the shape of all shapes as they must live together like one being. And I saw that the sacred hoop of my people was one of many hoops that made one circle, wide as daylight and as starlight, and in the center grew one mighty flowering tree to shelter all the children of one mother and one father. And I saw that it was holy.”

Black Elk’s vision of the fourth ascent was one of hope and brotherhood. Because that world did not come to pass, Black Elk lived to be a disappointed man believing that, in some way, he had failed his vision. “You see me now a pitiful old man who has done nothing, for the nation’s hoop is broken and scattered. There is no center any longer, and the sacred tree is dead.”

Shortly before his death in 1950, Black Elk offered this comment: “I have been told by the white men, or at least by those who are Christian, that God sent to men His son, who would restore order and peace upon the earth; and we have been told that Jesus the Christ was crucified, but that he shall come again at the Last Judgement, the end of this world cycle. This I understand and know that it is true, but the white men should know that for the red people too, it was the will of Wakan-Tanka, the Great Spirit, that an animal turn itself into a two-legged person in order to bring the most holy pipe to His people, and we too were taught that this White Buffalo Cow Woman who brought our sacred pipe will appear again at the end of this world, a coming which we Indians know is now not very far off.”

Perhaps, the words Black Elk heard, saying, “Behold this day, for it is yours to make. Now you shall stand upon the center of the earth to see…” is a message to us all. For this day is ours to make, and the center of the earth, Black Elk tells us, is everywhere. All we need to do is see the world in a sacred manner, and the holy tree will live again.

Link - texfiles.com/features/prophecies.htm

God Bless and Regards Tony
 
This is interesting, I have always admired the accuracy of Native American prophesy and its deep Spiritual Connections, I found this comment

"There is a remarkable difference between Western prophecies and those of native peoples. When Western prophets see into the future they envision Armageddon. The end of the world. When native prophets look down that same path they see the completion of a great cycle. A change of worlds.

The reason for these vastly different views is found in the way time is experienced. In the West time is history. There is a past, a present, and a future; a beginning, a middle, and an end. Like a stick. Native peoples experience time as a cycle. There are four stages, such as the seasons: spring, summer, autumn, and winter. Like a hoop. Each stage is a preparation for the next. At the center of the hoop is a still timelessness, like that of meditation; the
eternal present around which the cycles revolve. The visions of native prophets occur at that center point from where the cycles of change can be seen. There is no end…"

From this link - texfiles.com/features/prophecies.htm

God Bless and Regards Tony
That is beautiful, Tony, I can hear wooden flutes playing in the background. But I have no idea what a “Western prophecy” is. I believe that Native Americans are from the west, are they not? And that Christian prophecies originate from the middle east, somewhere around Israel.

In any case, the “Christian” (not Western) vision of the end of the world is a new heaven and a new earth free from sin and evil, sickness, suffering and death, where we will live in the family of God in complete happiness for eternity. So I would say whoever wrote those words did not understand the Christian point of view whatsoever. It is a message of hope, not of despair.
 
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