End Times Speculation - A Different View

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Wow. I was impressed as I began reading this post. Then I got to the last paragraph.

Tony, how in the world can you say that the New Jerusalem has already come down from heaven, where every tear will be wiped away and God will be with his people; where there is no more sorrow or pain? Look at the world around you! You are obviously an intelligent man. You believe it has come because Baha’u’llah has come yet every single bit of evidence tells another story.

Christ has not yet returned, my friend. We will not be speculating when he indeed does come. All the world will know it in an instant, like lightning across the sky. And it will all be changed in an instant. There will no holding on the old world. It will have passed away. Why you even read the Christian Scriptures is really beyond me. Your assertions concerning them are a perversion of the truth they convey. What God truly has planned for us is beyond your capability to even conceive (and mine). It is much, much more than a perfect social model to follow.
I find this interesting. Are you suggesting here that when Christ came the first time, He brought internal peace and when He comes the second time, He will bring peace among the nations by means of creating a new earth? I ask this because one of the reasons why Jews do not accept Jesus as the Messiah is that He did not bring an end to war and conflict within His lifetime on earth.
 
I wonder if I went out to all the local congregations around my home and told them that Christ ascended into “spiritual clouds” and will return upon a “spiritual cloud”, as attested by the term “cloud” in the Old Testament, how many of them will respond with:

"Why you even read the Christian Scriptures is really beyond me. Your assertions concerning them are a perversion of the truth they convey. "?

.
Where does the bible say “spiritual clouds”? It says “clouds”. In the absence of any qualifiers in the text, we must accept the text as it stands. To add weasel words like “spiritual” to a simple noun like “clouds” does great violence to the text.

What gives you and your sect the authority to alter the text of the bible?

Paul
 
I find this interesting. Are you suggesting here that when Christ came the first time, He brought internal peace and when He comes the second time, He will bring peace among the nations by means of creating a new earth? I ask this because one of the reasons why Jews do not accept Jesus as the Messiah is that He did not bring an end to war and conflict within His lifetime on earth.
Who said that Jesus was suppose to bring an end to war and conflict within his lifetime? He told us just the opposite; that we would be persecuted and even killed. That we should pick up our cross every day and follow him. And all this so that we might rise with him forever.

“…'My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm.” 37Therefore Pilate said to Him, “So You are a king?” Jesus answered, “You say correctly that I am a king. For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, to testify to the truth’.” (John 18:36-37)
 
I wonder if I went out to all the local congregations around my home and told them that Christ ascended into “spiritual clouds” and will return upon a “spiritual cloud”, as attested by the term “cloud” in the Old Testament, how many of them will respond with:

"Why you even read the Christian Scriptures is really beyond me. Your assertions concerning them are a perversion of the truth they convey. "?

.
I don’t know, why don’t you give it a try and let us know.

I stand by my statement. Yours is not a simple theological error, it is a perversion of the entire meaning of salvation history and the purpose and meaning of the incarnation of Christ, his life, death, resurrection and ascension.

We are the Church of Christ’s own Apostles who understood very well what Christ taught and what he meant. Some of them even wrote the Scriptures, and you have the gall to come along 1850 years later and tell us that we have no idea whatsoever what our own Scriptures mean. We wrote the New Testament. It is our Holy Book. So please remember this the next time you start to believe that you are more enlightened than the Church who gave birth to the book you pretend to understand. Your preconceived notions have blinded you to the truth that lies within its pages.
 
Where does the bible say “spiritual clouds”? It says “clouds”. In the absence of any qualifiers in the text, we must accept the text as it stands. To add weasel words like “spiritual” to a simple noun like “clouds” does great violence to the text.

What gives you and your sect the authority to alter the text of the bible?

Paul
I would humbly ask you to read Pope Benedict’s works in this subject 🙂

You sound very angry Paul. I hope you find inner peace dear friend…

🙂

.
 
I would humbly ask you to read Pope Benedict’s works in this subject 🙂

You sound very angry Paul. I hope you find inner peace dear friend…

🙂

.
I’m not angry, Servant; just bewildered as to why you would twist the plain meaning of the bible by adding adjectives that the sacred authors (and therefore the Holy Spirit) did not intend.

The “you sound angry” or “you are persecuting me” or whatever card is a way of dismissing arguments you are not equipped to deal with. Frankly, such tactics are beneath you.

No one is angry or hateful or persecuting you. Such diversion from the subject is a cult tactic that we expect to see from the Mormons or the JWs. Are Bahai’s in that category?

We are merely discussing. Be an adult and discuss.

Paul
 
I’m not angry, Servant; just bewildered as to why you would twist the plain meaning of the bible by adding adjectives that the sacred authors (and therefore the Holy Spirit) did not intend.

The “you sound angry” or “you are persecuting me” or whatever card is a way of dismissing arguments you are not equipped to deal with. Frankly, such tactics are beneath you.

No one is angry or hateful or persecuting you. Such diversion from the subject is a cult tactic that we expect to see from the Mormons or the JWs. Are Bahai’s in that category?

We are merely discussing. Be an adult and discuss.

Paul
Dear friend no one is diverting anything. Happy to discuss. If you notice I try to be respectful and loving to all, especially Catholicism as a religion.

But when you start calling the Baha’is “you and your cult”, it’s disrespectful towards a recognized religion (not a cult) and sounds like an angry shopkeeper who doesn’t like the local youth innocently catching up outside his shop, telling “you and your mob” to stop being there…

🙂

.
 
Where does the bible say “spiritual clouds”? It says “clouds”. In the absence of any qualifiers in the text, we must accept the text as it stands. To add weasel words like “spiritual” to a simple noun like “clouds” does great violence to the text.

What gives you and your sect the authority to alter the text of the bible? Paul
Dear Friewnd in God PaulDupre1 - Baha’u’llah Claims Authority to give meaning as to what the Word Means. Thus one must Judge Baha’u’llah Dear Friend and decide weather He has or Has not this Authority.

This book explains it all and may I suggest you give it a read, it is amazing! - reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/KI/ It proves all Religion to be from the one Source, that is God.

As Servant Said, to use the word Cult or Sect in reference to the Baha’i Faith shows a great lack of understanding as to what the Faith is and where it came from.

Are you aware that it is the 2nd most widespread religion only second to Christianity, yes the numbers are not large but the Faith did spread like Lightning from East to West. In no time at all it spread across the entire world.

God Bless and Regards Tony
 
Who said that Jesus was suppose to bring an end to war and conflict within his lifetime? He told us just the opposite; that we would be persecuted and even killed. That we should pick up our cross every day and follow him. And all this so that we might rise with him forever.

“…'My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm.” 37Therefore Pilate said to Him, “So You are a king?” Jesus answered, “You say correctly that I am a king. For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, to testify to the truth’.” (John 18:36-37)
Peace among the nations of the world is one of the main goals of the Messiah according to Judaism. What is the mission on earth of the Second Coming of Jesus, and what is the New Jerusalem?
 
Dear friend no one is diverting anything. Happy to discuss. If you notice I try to be respectful and loving to all, especially Catholicism as a religion.🙂
Servant, you cannot just begin each post with “Dear friend…” and end with a 🙂 and think that in between you can you can twist and turn our Scriptures into anything you wish them to say and tell us that we haven’t a clue what we’re talking about. You add and take away from our texts and assign meanings that were never meant. And you give not one iota of consideration to the teachings of our Church. And then you claim to be respectful and loving to all, “especially Catholicism as a religion”.

Can you tell me just one doctrine of the Catholic Church that you believe is true? You spend all of your time here basically telling us that we haven’t got a clue. Jesus didn’t rise bodily from the grave; Thomas was having a vision when Christ asked him to touch his wounds; Coming on the clouds with glory means that his coming will be obscure (i.e. Baha’u’llah); Christ’s miracles are meaningless as far as proving anything about him, they are meant to “bedazzle” children. I could go on and on… and you know I could. But, in spite of all of this, you love “Catholicism as a religion”.

Here’s the deal. If you had your own, unique set of Scriptures and believed what you believe then so be it. When you take our Scriptures, however, “Christian”, not “Baha’i” Scriptures, and turn them on their ear, yes, we get a little concerned because you are not just a little off, you are in another universe altogether. I’m not sure “mad” is the appropriate term to use. Righteous indignation comes to mind.

And you know what, I will just bet that the Muslims feel the same when you interpret their Quran for them. I’d bet my next paycheck on it. 😉

Steve
 
Peace among the nations of the world is one of the main goals of the Messiah according to Judaism. What is the mission on earth of the Second Coming of Jesus, and what is the New Jerusalem?
Christ will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead. What happens then I will defer to the official Catholic teaching on the matter:

*"1042At the end of time, the Kingdom of God will come in its fullness. After the universal judgment, the righteous will reign for ever with Christ, glorified in body and soul. The universe itself will be renewed: (769, 670, 310)

The Church… will receive her perfection only in the glory of heaven, when will come the time of the renewal of all things. At that time, together with the human race, the universe itself, which is so closely related to man and which attains its destiny through him, will be perfectly re-established in Christ.631

1043 Sacred Scripture calls this mysterious renewal, which will transform humanity and the world, “new heavens and a new earth.”632 It will be the definitive realization of God’s plan to bring under a single head “all things in [Christ], things in heaven and things on earth.633 (671, 280, 518)

1044 In this new universe, the heavenly Jerusalem, God will have his dwelling among men.634 “He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning nor crying nor pain any more, for the former things have passed away.”635

1045 For man, this consummation will be the final realization of the unity of the human race, which God willed from creation and of which the pilgrim Church has been “in the nature of sacrament.”636 Those who are united with Christ will form the community of the redeemed, “the holy city” of God, “the Bride, the wife of the Lamb.”637 She will not be wounded any longer by sin, stains, self-love, that destroy or wound the earthly community.638 The beatific vision, in which God opens himself in an inexhaustible way to the elect, will be the ever-flowing well-spring of happiness, peace, and mutual communion."* (Catechism of the Catholic Church, par 1042-1045)
 
Peace among the nations of the world is one of the main goals of the Messiah according to Judaism. What is the mission on earth of the Second Coming of Jesus, and what is the New Jerusalem?
Dear meltzerboy - Baha’u’llah states this is one of the mysteries of God Doeth as He Willeth, that all the signs that the Jews were waiting for were not manifestly obvious in Jesus was just a Test of Faith for the Jews.

Time has proven that Jesus was indeed the one foretold in the Old Testament and Jesus left us more signs of the end of Times/Age/Era.

Interestingly the Revelations of the Bab and Baha’u’llah fulfill all the signs of the Old Testament. They have ushered in Gods Kingdom on Earth as it is in Heaven.

Why there is still dying pains of the Old World is that we again rejected Gods Message. This was to be though as it is adequately supported by scripture.

God Bless and Regards Tony
 
Dear meltzerboy - Baha’u’llah states this is one of the mysteries of God Doeth as He Willeth, that all the signs that the Jews were waiting for were not manifestly obvious in Jesus was just a Test of Faith for the Jews.

Time has proven that Jesus was indeed the one foretold in the Old Testament and Jesus left us more signs of the end of Times/Age/Era.

Interestingly the Revelations of the Bab and Baha’u’llah fulfill all the signs of the Old Testament. They have ushered in Gods Kingdom on Earth as it is in Heaven.

Why there is still dying pains of the Old World is that we again rejected Gods Message. This was to be though as it is adequately supported by scripture.

God Bless and Regards Tony
Really? I am pretty sure that meltzerboy’s post was meant for me, but thanks for your two cents.

Never mind, meltzerboy, I guess it has already happened. Baha’u’llah took care of it. Apparently I just didn’t notice.
 
Christ will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead. What happens then I will defer to the official Catholic teaching on the matter:

*"1042At the end of time, the Kingdom of God will come in its fullness. After the universal judgment, the righteous will reign for ever with Christ, glorified in body and soul. The universe itself will be renewed: (769, 670, 310)

The Church… will receive her perfection only in the glory of heaven, when will come the time of the renewal of all things. At that time, together with the human race, the universe itself, which is so closely related to man and which attains its destiny through him, will be perfectly re-established in Christ.631

1043 Sacred Scripture calls this mysterious renewal, which will transform humanity and the world, “new heavens and a new earth.”632 It will be the definitive realization of God’s plan to bring under a single head “all things in [Christ], things in heaven and things on earth.633 (671, 280, 518)

1044 In this new universe, the heavenly Jerusalem*, God will have his dwelling among men.634 “He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning nor crying nor pain any more, for the former things have passed away.”635

1045 For man, this consummation will be the final realization of the unity of the human race, which God willed from creation and of which the pilgrim Church has been “in the nature of sacrament.”636 Those who are united with Christ will form the community of the redeemed, “the holy city” of God, “the Bride, the wife of the Lamb.”637 She will not be wounded any longer by sin, stains, self-love, that destroy or wound the earthly community.638 The beatific vision, in which God opens himself in an inexhaustible way to the elect, will be the ever-flowing well-spring of happiness, peace, and mutual communion." (Catechism of the Catholic Church, par 1042-1045)
Thank you, Steve. I have some questions about the particulars but not for now: it’s late!
 
Dear meltzerboy - Baha’u’llah states this is one of the mysteries of God Doeth as He Willeth, that all the signs that the Jews were waiting for were not manifestly obvious in Jesus was just a Test of Faith for the Jews.

Time has proven that Jesus was indeed the one foretold in the Old Testament and Jesus left us more signs of the end of Times/Age/Era.

Interestingly the Revelations of the Bab and Baha’u’llah fulfill all the signs of the Old Testament. They have ushered in Gods Kingdom on Earth as it is in Heaven.

Why there is still dying pains of the Old World is that we again rejected Gods Message. This was to be though as it is adequately supported by scripture.

God Bless and Regards Tony
How has “time proven” anything one way or another? Revelations of the Bab and Baha’u’llah fulfill ALL the signs? Discussions for another day. Thank you, Tony.
 
Of all the interpretations I have read or watched pertaining to the end times & the Revelation. This makes more sense to me than all others at the current times:

youtube.com/watch?v=XE3XZM017cQ

*It may not make much sense in the beginning but the best is saved for last in the clip. Try to finish it to the end.

Enjoy.

God Bless,
GuyNextDoor*
 
Did Muhammad raise the dead? Did any Prophet raise the dead? Resuscitations maybe, but no-one has ever resurrected the dead. But today, Dr. X at your local hospital resuscitates the dead every day…

Suffice it to say that and entire regiment of Christians refused to carry out the execution of the Bab because of the miracle they witnessed. Does any religion have “independent” and fully verified witnesses from “outside the religious community” that can show us the miracles documented really happened?

The Bab did:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Execution_of_the_Báb

If you want more than this, you will have to read books :eek:

Why do miracles matter so much to you all? Like children we watch bedazzled. I was hoping with the advent of Muhammad, Muslims would be more mature about their needs for proofs…During Jesus’ time, every Tom, Dick and Harry was doing miracles, curing the sick, blind and mute, resuscitating the dead, manipulating weather and the elements. Whats so special about this act??

God bless you, and I pray for some maturity…

Again, I will leave it at that…

.
Hi Servant 🙂

Thanks for the link. Apparently the Bab was suspended with a rope from a wall and the bullets hit the rope and he fell down and ran off and hid in a room only to be brought back and shot to death. How in heavens sake is that a miracle? (reminds me of the movie: The good the Bad and the Ugly). A miracle is something that cannot be justified using materialistic means: Moses splitting the Nile, his staff turning into a serpent, or hitting rocks with his staff and springs flowing out of them, Jesus curing the uncurable, etc…

I Googled the Bab for miracles, well none came up. Apparently neither the Bab nor Baha’u’llah had any miracles. You claimed Baha’u’llah had miracles and I’m still waiting for you to show me those miracles.
🙂
 
Dear friend no one is diverting anything. Happy to discuss. If you notice I try to be respectful and loving to all, especially Catholicism as a religion.

But when you start calling the Baha’is “you and your cult”, it’s disrespectful towards a recognized religion (not a cult) and sounds like an angry shopkeeper who doesn’t like the local youth innocently catching up outside his shop, telling “you and your mob” to stop being there…

🙂

.
There you go again. I did not say “you and your cult”. Re-read my post. I said “you and your sect”. Huge difference.

Why did you feel the need to change my words?’

Why do you feel the need to change the bible’s words?

If you can’t make a believable argument from the text without altering the text to suit your argument, perhaps you should re-evaluate the strength of your truth claims.
 
Hi Servant 🙂

Thanks for the link. Apparently the Bab was suspended with a rope from a wall and the bullets hit the rope and he fell down and ran off and hid in a room only to be brought back and shot to death. How in heavens sake is that a miracle? 🙂
Dear peace_at_last, that dear friend in God was such an unjust look at that event that I feel compelled to put it into perspective. Thus the story is retold here for all to see:

The Martyrdom of the Báb took place on July 9, 1850 at noon. An event with no parallel in history save the crucifixion of Jesus, it is commemorated as a solemn Holy Day by Bahá’ís around the world. Here’s how it happened:

The Báb had been imprisoned for about three years before His death was finally ordered. All attempts to crush His fledgling religion had failed. The violent deaths of many of the Báb’s principal followers had strengthened rather than extinguished the faith of those that remained. Muhammad Shah had not seen fit to execute the Báb, but now he was dead and his successor Násiri’d-Dín Sháh ruled. Lacking experience, the new Shah relied heavily upon his advisors. One of these–his Grand Vizir, Mírzá Taqí Khán–believed that the upheavals wracking the country could only be stilled through the death of the Báb.

He therefore ordered that the Báb be taken from His prison to the city of Tabríz, although to avoid objections from other officials, no reason for the move was given. Three days after the Báb’s arrival in Tabríz, new orders arrived calling for an Armenian regiment under the command of Colonel Sam Khan to carry out His execution. Anyone professing to be a follower of the Báb was likewise to be put to death. The Báb was transferred to the barracks in the center of the city to await His execution. As He was being led there, a youth named Muhammad-'Alí rushed out from the crowd of onlookers and threw himself at the Báb’s feet, imploring Him, “Send me not from Thee, O Master. Wherever Thou goest, suffer me to follow Thee.”

The Báb replied, “Muhammad-'Alí, arise, and rest assured that you will be with Me. Tomorrow you shall witness what God has decreed.”

Muhammad-'Alí and two others who rushed forward to express their loyalty to Him were taken and confined with Him in the barracks. Early the next morning, the farrash-bashi (head attendant) was ordered to bring the Báb before the mujtahids (chief religious officials) of the city to obtain death warrants. When he arrived, he found the Báb speaking privately with Siyyid Husayn, who acted as His secretary. The farrash-bashi pulled Siyyid Husayn aside and reprimanded him. Hearing this, the Báb warned, "Not until I have said to him all those things that I wish to say can any earthly power silence Me. Though all the world be armed against Me, yet shall they be powerless to deter Me from fulfilling, to the last word, My intention."

The farrash-bashi then took Muhammad-'Alí before the mujtahids, who tried to convince him to recant his belief in the Báb. He boldly refused. Afterward, the Báb was also taken to the mujtahids, but they refused to meet Him face-to-face, instead sending out the necessary documents in the hands of their attendants. The Báb and Muhammad-'Alí were then confined, under the supervision of Sam Khan, in a different room from Siyyid Husayn.

Now Sam Khan was Christian. Observing both the Báb and the way He was being treated, he grew increasingly uncomfortable at his assignment. Eventually he expressed his misgivings to the Báb: “I profess the Christian Faith,” he said, “and entertain no ill will against you. If your Cause be the Cause of Truth, enable me to free myself from the obligation to shed your blood.” The Báb replied, "Follow your instructions, and if your intention be sincere, the Almighty is surely able to relieve you from your perplexity."

There was little else to do in any case. Under Sam Khan’s direction, a spike was driven into a pillar facing the barracks courtyard and two ropes were tied to it. As noon approached, the Báb and Muhammad-'Alí were brought into the courtyard and suspended from these ropes, Muhammad-'Alí’s head resting against the Báb’s chest. A regiment of seven hundred fifty soldiers, ranged in three ranks of two hundred fifty each, formed the firing squad. It seemed the entire city had turned out to watch the execution. About ten thousand spectators lined the rooftops of the barracks and adjoining houses as the first rank fired, then the second, then the third. The smoke from the guns was so thick it momentarily darkened the sky and obscured the view of the condemned.

When the smoke cleared, the crowd was stunned to find the Báb gone and Muhammad-'Alí standing unscathed on the ground! The bullets had cut to pieces the ropes suspending the prisoners. A frenzied search was mounted to locate the Báb. When they found Him, He was seated in the room He had occupied the night before, finishing His interrupted conversation with Siyyid Husayn. When the farrash-bashi arrived at the scene, the Báb told him,** “I have finished My conversation with Siyyid Husayn. Now you may proceed to fulfil your intention.”** But so shaken was the farrash-bashi that he refused to have anything further to do with the execution, resigned his post, and quit the scene.

Cont -
 
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