End Times Speculation - A Different View

[Servant19]

I Googled and Googled and Googled and I came up with no miracles from Baha’u’llah. But, since you seem to have studied the life of Baha’u’llah and claim he had the aforementioned miracles, then show me:
Where did Baha’u’llah raise the dead? Cure the leprosy? Cure the blind? split the Nile? Have something like Moses’s staff? or anything similar?

Did Muhammad raise the dead? Did any Prophet raise the dead? Resuscitations maybe, but no-one has ever resurrected the dead. But today, Dr. X at your local hospital resuscitates the dead every day…

Suffice it to say that and entire regiment of Christians refused to carry out the execution of the Bab because of the miracle they witnessed. Does any religion have “independent” and fully verified witnesses from “outside the religious community” that can show us the miracles documented really happened?

The Bab did:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Execution_of_the_Báb

If you want more than this, you will have to read books

Why do miracles matter so much to you all? Like children we watch bedazzled. I was hoping with the advent of Muhammad, Muslims would be more mature about their needs for proofs…During Jesus’ time, every Tom, Dick and Harry was doing miracles, curing the sick, blind and mute, resuscitating the dead, manipulating weather and the elements. Whats so special about this act??

God bless you, and I pray for some maturity…

Again, I will leave it at that…

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[SteveVH]

Did Muhammad raise the dead? Did any Prophet raise the dead? Resuscitations maybe, but no-one has ever resurrected the dead.

Except Jesus and some of his Apostles. That’s the point. No ones else has done it. Jesus is unique.

But today, Dr. X at your local hospital resuscitates the dead every day…

Not after they have been dead for three days are giving off a stench.

Why do miracles matter so much to you all? Like children we watch bedazzled.

Christ never performed a miracle to entertain or “bedazzle” us. Every Miracle had deep meaning beyond the physical event. Christ forgave a man his sins. The Pharisees went nuts because only God can forgive sins. So Jesus, in order to prove that he did have the authority to forgive sins (because he is God) said to them: “Which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins have been forgiven you,’ or to say, 'Get up and walk '? 24"But, so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins,”-- He said to the paralytic-- “I say to you, get up, and pick up your stretcher and go home.”…

Jesus’ intention was to heal the paralytic’s soul by forgiving his sins. In order to forgive sins he must be God. He proved he was God through a supernatural event so that those present would believe. The healing of the man’s paralytic body was a sign of the spiritual healing that had taken place through Christ’s forgiveness of the man’s sins. He wasn’t performing a magic act.

Your assertion that we are somehow acting like children in believing in Christ’s miracles and that we need to grow up is highly offensive and shows nothing but ignorance as far as understanding the purpose and meaning behind the miracles of Christ.

 

[Servant19]

Your assertion that we are somehow acting like children in believing in Christ’s miracles and that we need to grow up is highly offensive and shows nothing but ignorance as far as understanding the purpose and meaning behind the miracles of Christ.

No Steve, I never said that dear friend…Believing in Christ’s miracles is very mature and shows faith.

REQUIRING them to have faith is the sign of immaturity. I am only expressing a humble opinion. But I believe that it is for this reason that Jesus asserted to keep His miracles quiet and not to publicise them.

I really want to leave it at that…I’m sure Tony can take the reins back from my rude interruptions here.

My apologies Tony

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[SteveVH]

No Steve, I never said that dear friend…Believing in Christ’s miracles is very mature and shows faith.

REQUIRING them to have faith is the sign of immaturity. I am only expressing a humble opinion. But I believe that it is for this reason that Jesus asserted to keep His miracles quiet and not to publicise them.

I really want to leave it at that…I’m sure Tony can take the reins back from my rude interruptions here.

My apologies Tony

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Who said we REQUIRE them? No one ever required that Jesus perform a miracle except the devil, in whom you do not believe. And maybe Tony can take the reins back but I was responding to your comments, not Tony’s.

 

[Servant19]

Who said we REQUIRE them? No one ever required that Jesus perform a miracle except the devil, in whom you do not believe. And maybe Tony can take the reins back but I was responding to your comments, not Tony’s.

Please go back and read peace at lasts posts, Steve.
(And it was to his post I was responding to as well by the way!)

If it’s not a requirement in his eyes, I don’t know what is. He denies Baha’u’llah because he couldn’t find a miracle of His on google. Come on…



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[openmind77]

…According to Christianity, the second coming of Christ will be the end of human history. This world will pass away and be no more. This directly and unambiguously contradicts the idea of some earthly utopia in which all mankind lives together in peace and harmony under the direction of an enlightened human government…

Where exactly does it say in the NT that the world will pass away and be no more?

I believe many interpret the original text to say end of an **era ** rather than the world itself and has been mistranslated.

Also, many Christians believe that there will indeed be period of peace and harmony (a 1000 year reign of the Christ or millennium)

 

[SteveVH]

Please go back and read peace at lasts posts, Steve.
(And it was to his post I was responding to as well by the way!)

If it’s not a requirement in his eyes, I don’t know what is. He denies Baha’u’llah because he couldn’t find a miracle of His on google. Come on…



.

As I said, no one has ever required a miracle from Christ. The fact is that he performed miracles for his own purposes, not because he was asked. He backed up his claims (for instance, to have the authority to forgive sins) by performing a supernatural act which no mere human had ever performed. We cannot just sit back and ignore these miracles as having no value and as unimportant. The fact that Baha’u’llah made claims without ever showing that he had supernatural abilities does not mean that his claims are either true or untrue. It just means that they are claims, without anything to back them up.

 

[pitbull]

Where exactly does it say in the NT that the world will pass away and be no more?

10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. 2 Peter 3

Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. Rev 21:1

I believe many interpret the original text to say end of an **era ** rather than the world itself and has been mistranslated.

Also, many Christians believe that there will indeed be period of peace and harmony (a 1000 year reign of the Christ or millennium)

 

[openmind77]

openmind77;12296110:

Where exactly does it say in the NT that the world will pass away and be no more?

I believe many interpret the original text to say end of an **era **

rather than the world itself and has been mistranslated.

Also, many Christians believe that there will indeed be period of peace and harmony (a 1000 year reign of the Christ or millennium)10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. 2 Peter 3

Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. Rev 21:1

Well, OK. But this is coming from someone who denied the Christ three times. He was definitely a important apostle, but we can not take everything he says as Gospel truth. Similarly the revelations are just describing somebody’s visions - again not my idea of Gospel truth.

When I think of the end times, I would much rather go with Jesus’s actual words. Matthew 24 and 25 is what we should look at. It is really describing a new era - a lot of destruction (like the flood) but not the end of world.

 

[SteveVH]

Where exactly does it say in the NT that the world will pass away and be no more?

“Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.” (Matthew 24:35)

I believe many interpret the original text to say end of an **era ** rather than the world itself and has been mistranslated.

I am sure that there are some that do.

Also, many Christians believe that there will indeed be period of peace and harmony (a 1000 year reign of the Christ or millennium)

Yes, you are correct. There are some that do believe this.

 

[Per_Crucem]

Well, OK. But this is coming from someone who denied the Christ three times. He was definitely a important apostle, but we can not take everything he says as Gospel truth. Similarly the revelations are just describing somebody’s visions - again not my idea of Gospel truth.

When I think of the end times, I would much rather go with Jesus’s actual words. Matthew 24 and 25 is what we should look at. It is really describing a new era - a lot of destruction (like the flood) but not the end of world.

You asked where in the NT it was found. You didn’t specify that it had to be a certain apostle or from a certain NT book. Special pleading.

And yes, we do take Peter’s words as Gospel truth. Your opinion of him notwithstanding.

 

[openmind77]

"Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away." (Matthew 24:35)
…

This is indeed true that heaven and earth will pass away someday. Even scientists agree about the earth passing away someday.

But this verse does not in any way imply (at least to me) that heaven and earth will pass away when the Christ returns (in fact, nobody believes that heaven will end when the Christ returns).

The End times means just that - that the current times will end and a new era will begin.

 

[SteveVH]

This is indeed true that heaven and earth will pass away someday. Even scientists agree about the earth passing away someday.

But this verse does not in any way imply (at least to me) that heaven and earth will pass away when the Christ returns (in fact, nobody believes that heaven will end when the Christ returns).

The End times means just that - that the current times will end and a new era will begin.

Well, you asked where in the NT that it said that the world will pass away. I told you. No one has a gun to your head or a sword to your throat. Believe what you will. But it is not in keeping with the Church that Christ founded.

 

[openmind77]

Well, you asked where in the NT that it said that the world will pass away. I told you. No one has a gun to your head or a sword to your throat. Believe what you will. But it is not in keeping with the Church that Christ founded.

We are all free to believe what we want and interpret the Bible the way we want.

“Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.” (Matthew 24:35)

So I guess this verse tells you that both heaven and earth will pass away in the end times when the Christ returns!

Actually, I believe that the end times are near because the separation/polarization of people is happening exactly the way Matthew 25:31-44 predicts.

In almost every country there is a group which wants to give food to the poor and another which is against it, there is a group that wants to help the sick and another which is against, and there is a group that wants to welcome strangers (immigrants) and another which is against. The polarization is so stark and obvious and matches with Matthew 25:31-44 so well, that it can only mean the end times are occurring as we speak.

 

[tonyfish58]

We are all free to believe what we want and interpret the Bible the way we want.

“Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.” (Matthew 24:35)

So I guess this verse tells you that both heaven and earth will pass away in the end times when the Christ returns!

Actually, I believe that the end times are near because the separation/polarization of people is happening exactly the way Matthew 25:31-44 predicts.

In almost every country there is a group which wants to give food to the poor and another which is against it, there is a group that wants to help the sick and another which is against, and there is a group that wants to welcome strangers (immigrants) and another which is against. The polarization is so stark and obvious and matches with Matthew 25:31-44 so well, that it can only mean the end times are occurring as we speak.

It is a material explanation for a Spiritual fact that is the issue, this passage gives the answer -

“And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new.”

The Old Earth as we know did indeed get destroyed, it is at the end of its death, in its judgement times. All things have been made New, it is us holding on to the old things that prolong the new being Rolled out.

There will be a time in the future where this will be apparent.

God Bless and regards Tony

 

[SteveVH]

We are all free to believe what we want and interpret the Bible the way we want.

“Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.” (Matthew 24:35)

So I guess this verse tells you that both heaven and earth will pass away in the end times when the Christ returns!

Actually, I believe that the end times are near because the separation/polarization of people is happening exactly the way Matthew 25:31-44 predicts.

In almost every country there is a group which wants to give food to the poor and another which is against it, there is a group that wants to help the sick and another which is against, and there is a group that wants to welcome strangers (immigrants) and another which is against. The polarization is so stark and obvious and matches with Matthew 25:31-44 so well, that it can only mean the end times are occurring as we speak.

It will be the end of a world which was affected by sin and evil, with the consequences of suffering, sickness, death and decay. Christ makes all things new. We will have a new heaven and a new earth, the New Jerusalem, where every tear will be wiped away. Christ’s coming and the end of this world is a good thing. If one fears Christ’s coming it may be time to assess one’s life. Some will wish the mountains would fall on them rather than face their judgment.

As for the end times occurring as we speak, the world isn’t much different than it has always been, IMHO. In any case, no one knows the day or the hour. It does us no good to speculate about when the end will come. We should all live as if it will happen today.

Peace.

Steve

 

[SteveVH]

It is a material explanation for a Spiritual fact that is the issue, this passage gives the answer -

“And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new.”

The Old Earth as we know did indeed get destroyed, it is at the end of its death, in its judgement times. All things have been made New, it is us holding on to the old things that prolong the new being Rolled out.

There will be a time in the future where this will be apparent.

God Bless and regards Tony

Wow. I was impressed as I began reading this post. Then I got to the last paragraph.

Tony, how in the world can you say that the New Jerusalem has already come down from heaven, where every tear will be wiped away and God will be with his people; where there is no more sorrow or pain? Look at the world around you! You are obviously an intelligent man. You believe it has come because Baha’u’llah has come yet every single bit of evidence tells another story.

Christ has not yet returned, my friend. We will not be speculating when he indeed does come. All the world will know it in an instant, like lightning across the sky. And it will all be changed in an instant. There will no holding on the old world. It will have passed away. Why you even read the Christian Scriptures is really beyond me. Your assertions concerning them are a perversion of the truth they convey. What God truly has planned for us is beyond your capability to even conceive (and mine). It is much, much more than a perfect social model to follow.

 

[tonyfish58]

Wow. I was impressed as I began reading this post. Then I got to the last paragraph.

Tony, how in the world can you say that the New Jerusalem has already come down from heaven, where every tear will be wiped away and God will be with his people; where there is no more sorrow or pain? Look at the world around you! You are obviously an intelligent man. You believe it has come because Baha’u’llah has come yet every single bit of evidence tells another story.

Christ has not yet returned, my friend. We will not be speculating when he indeed does come. All the world will know it in an instant, like lightning across the sky. And it will all be changed in an instant. There will no holding on the old world. It will have passed away. Why you even read the Christian Scriptures is really beyond me. Your assertions concerning them are a perversion of the truth they convey. What God truly has planned for us is beyond your capability to even conceive (and mine). It is much, much more than a perfect social model to follow.

Dear SteveVH - You have said “There will no holding on the old world. It will have passed away”.

Dear Steve - It is worth considering - Yes it has and yet we still hold on - The evidence is overwhelming, but one has to let go and know God Doeth as He Willeth. There is no conflict in any of these issues when one accepts the explanations, just as you have fully accepted the explanations of the Church. But dear Steve the More that Christ had to tell us has been told, it is now up to us.

Dear Steve - I am the first to admit what you said “What God truly has planned for us is beyond your capability to even conceive”. But dear friend I am not alone there is a whole world of people in the same boat. Also consider that I have an outlook of Gods Plan that may indeed be well beyond what you have been willing to look at, so dear friend it may be Good that we do not Judge each others knowledge of God, that is for God to decide dear friend

Do you want God to do His Will or do you want it by mankind’s Will?

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[Servant19]

Wow. I was impressed as I began reading this post. Then I got to the last paragraph.

Tony, how in the world can you say that the New Jerusalem has already come down from heaven, where every tear will be wiped away and God will be with his people; where there is no more sorrow or pain? Look at the world around you! You are obviously an intelligent man. You believe it has come because Baha’u’llah has come yet every single bit of evidence tells another story.

Christ has not yet returned, my friend. We will not be speculating when he indeed does come. All the world will know it in an instant, like lightning across the sky. And it will all be changed in an instant. There will no holding on the old world. It will have passed away. Why you even read the Christian Scriptures is really beyond me. Your assertions concerning them are a perversion of the truth they convey. What God truly has planned for us is beyond your capability to even conceive (and mine). It is much, much more than a perfect social model to follow.

I wonder if I went out to all the local congregations around my home and told them that Christ ascended into “spiritual clouds” and will return upon a “spiritual cloud”, as attested by the term “cloud” in the Old Testament, how many of them will respond with:

"Why you even read the Christian Scriptures is really beyond me. Your assertions concerning them are a perversion of the truth they convey. "?

.

 

[PaulDupre1]

I wonder if I went out to all the local congregations around my home and told them that Christ ascended into “spiritual clouds” and will return upon a “spiritual cloud”, as attested by the term “cloud” in the Old Testament, how many of them will respond with:

"Why you even read the Christian Scriptures is really beyond me. Your assertions concerning them are a perversion of the truth they convey. "?

.

But that is not what Tony said. Tony said that Jesus’ second coming has already taken place.

Any Christian who ever went to Sunday School knows that the bible teaches that when Jesus comes again, all the world will witness it at the same time, for He will appear to all as the lightning is seen in the sky from the East to the West. We won’t be able to miss it:

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

• Matt 24: 26,27

When Jesus comes again, there will be no mystery or doubt or argument about it. Everyone will know because everyone will see. There will be no mistaking the physical reality of His returning in the clouds with His hosts of angels.

You and the Jehovah’s Witnesses and the Iglesia Ni Cristo and everyone else who denies the plain truth of the bible are dead wrong about this.

Paul