Ending the Slavery Blame-Game

[Beau_Ouiville]

But how can you say there is still discrimination and loss of opportunity when Obama was elected President. Seems it’s more of a level playing field now?

Jackie Robinson said when he became a big leaguer and folks said he “had it made”: “I don’t have it made until all black folks have it made.” As a matter of fact, his autobiography is “I Never Had it Made”. Has the EEOC gone out of business?

Even if your claim of a “level playing field” is accurate, what of the folks who had to climb up to the field when others used ladders standing on their shoulders?

 

[Callin]

Here’s what a white priest explained to me: Every white person in America benefitted from racial discrimination against blacks in the US.

Because of various types of subjugation, white folks were able to take home more money (and get better health care) and support their businesses better and educated there families better. Thus the entire white community got a benefit and the minority communities were harmed unfairly. The effects of such discrimination surely did not end in 1964, either. Bad health, bad neighborhoods near toxic wastes and bad living conditions stayed bad.

Sorry, I refuse to accept the premise that a person born in this country would have a debt to pay based solely on their skin color, even a century after slavery is outlawed. This kind of reverse racism does nothing other than fuel more racism in the future.

Even if reparations were to happen, there would still be people who would think it too much, or too little, or not widespread enough. Who would owe how much to whom? What about people of mixed descent? What about people who weren’t even in this country until a decade or so ago? Could people leave this country, wait until reparations are paid, and then re-enter without paying a dime?

Face it, there’s no way to satisfy even a majority of people on this issue, so why not just wipe the slate clean and bury these skin color-based policies once and for all?

 

[stanmaxkolbe]

Jackie Robinson said when he became a big leaguer and folks said he “had it made”: “I don’t have it made until all black folks have it made.” As a matter of fact, his autobiography is “I Never Had it Made”. Has the EEOC gone out of business?

Even if your claim of a “level playing field” is accurate, what of the folks who had to climb up to the field when others used ladders standing on their shoulders?

Wow Beau were do agree on a lot of stuff!

Sorry to get off topic some trivia: Jackie Robinson a Commissioned Officer in the United States Army was arrested in Killeen, TX outside of Fort Hood because he would not give up his seat on a bus to a white person. I think a white woman?

He also supported VP Nixon for President, Robinson’s wife said years later that he met with both candidates but Sen. Kennedy would not look him in his eyes.

 

[Beau_Ouiville]

Sorry, I refuse to accept the premise that a person born in this country would have a debt to pay based solely on their skin color, even a century after slavery is outlawed. This kind of reverse racism does nothing other than fuel more racism in the future.

That’s good, because that is not what I said. My premise is that every white person (and their communities) has benefited from discrimination against non-whites in this country.

Face it, there’s no way to satisfy even a majority of people on this issue, so why not just wipe the slate clean and bury these skin color-based policies once and for all?

All I ask is that people quit fooling themselves.

Historical aside: Jackie Robinson was court-martialed for refusing to move to the back of the bus at the army base. He was talking to a very light-skinned woman near the front of the bus who the bus driver assumed was white but she was in fact the black wife of another black officer.

 

[stanmaxkolbe]

That’s good, because that is not what I said. My premise is that every white person (and their communities) has benefited from discrimination against non-whites in this country.

All I ask is that people quit fooling themselves.

Historical aside: Jackie Robinson was court-martialed for refusing to move to the back of the bus at the army base. He was talking to a very light-skinned woman near the front of the bus who the bus driver assumed was white but she was in fact the black wife of another black officer.

Jackie Robinson makes Beau’s point how many white officers would be recommend for Court Marshal for not moving to the back of the bus?

 

[Seamus_L]

Just because some people try to make you feel guilty, doesn’t mean you have to go along with it.

 

[Roy5]

A few random thoughts

1. African-Americans got a rotten deal for centuries here in the USA.

2.Affirmative action has been widespread and that has been a sort of reparations. Many college scholarships, for example, are designated for Black Americans. I have favored this.

1. Dr. King is a hero of mine. What a beautiful way to fight for justice - a minister who preached love, denounced violence but insisted on justice. The USA was lucky that such a person became the leader and symbol of the freedom movement.
2. The three major problems in the Black community are children born to unwed mothers -70% of Black babies - welfare dependency, and crime. Education, too, perhaps, but much of the educational problem stems from single-parent homes. Until these problems are faced and at least largely solved African-Americans will lag behind other Americans in their level of economic success. It’s not race so much that holds them back, although psychological injury plays a role with many. But consider Asian-Americans.Their income level is highest in the nation. Their families are more likely intact, they are extremely industrious, and they emphasize education. Many Black families do all that, too, but too many don’t. Yes, Japanese-Americans received reparations (with which I did not agree) but at least it went directly to those who endured the World War II internment.
3. Slavery was evil, of course, and then jim crow and rabid discrimination. A great stain on our national history. How pleased I was that the majority of voters were willing to vote for a biracial America, whether we agree with his policies or not. I worry that some of the hate-speech directed against him stems from residual racism. Recently we went to “South Pacific” which includes the song: “You’ve got to be taught to hate.” It annoys me that so many ‘pious Christians’ praise God in loud voices but ignore Christ’s call to love one another. Now, there is racism within the Black community too, among those who stubbornly hold on to a deep bitterness toward whites. For some it’s a crutch. Blame whitey.
4. As for reparations, they are impossible to work through fairly - as Obama has wisely said. Who gets them? Only those whose ancestors were slaves? What about those whose ancestors come here from the West Indies? What about those with different amounts of ‘African-American blood’? Recent immigrants from Africa? And the problems mount up. Only a small % of the slaves transported to the New World came to what was to become the USA. The large majority went to Latin America and the West Indies. Should Spain and Portugal pay reparations also? And what about Britain and France, etc.
5. And what about those thousands of Union soldiers who fought to end slavery, including my great-grandfather. A great uncle of mine was captured, imprisoned at Libby Prison, and never experienced good health thereafter. I believe roughly 250,000 Union soldiers laid down their lives in that bloody conflict. Thousands more had legs amputated or other permanent injuries. Reparations for their heirs? And what about descendants of immigrants who were not here during the Civil War - Polish-Americans, Italian-Americans, and many others, some recent arrivals - and played no part in the slavery system? Why should they be liable?
6. How would African-Americans get proportional reparations from west African countries that initially sold them into slavery? Not possible, of course.
7. African-Americans as a whole are much better off here than those in present-day sub-Saharan African. Wasn’t it Muhammad Ali who declared, as he left Africa and speaking of his ancestors: “I’m glad they took the boat” - or words to that effect.
8. What we need to do is work toward that ‘more perfect union’ where (as Dr. King said) no one is judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character. This is our duty as genuine Christians and as patriotic Americans. Let us become truly one people - one nation, under God, with liberty and justice for all.

 

[script77]

Slavery existed before Whites got to Africa. But slaves taken into homes were treated well and were considered part of the family, but did most of the work in the houses of Black homes.

When Whites came, they took advantage of this, and encouraged Blacks to help capture other Blacks from neighbouring villages, or enemies of theirs. The Whites took these slaves away from their environment and degraded them to sub-human status with beatings, rapes and all sorts of atrocities. I believe this is what really make sht ecase of Trans-Atlantic slavery really bad.

 

[Wolseley]

When Whites came, they took advantage of this, and encouraged Blacks to help capture other Blacks from neighbouring villages, or enemies of theirs. The Whites took these slaves away from their environment and degraded them to sub-human status with beatings, rapes and all sorts of atrocities. I believe this is what really make sht ecase of Trans-Atlantic slavery really bad.

I will make one point:

The only reason the blacks in Africa were willing to sell their own people as slaves to the Europeans operating off the west coast of Africa was because the Europeans were paying much better prices for them than the Arabs operating off the east coast of Africa.

 

[thegreypiper]

No, you may not owe anyone for wrongs not done by you; but don’t fool yourself. Your level of prosperity may have been increased due to someone else being treated unfairly. Keep that in mind when you are trying to figure out what is ‘fair’.

You should also consider that I am a direct descendant of veterans of the Civil War and World War II. And I am not in favor of reparations.

Folks should just not fool themselves.

Well you just go ahead and get the ball rolling and start handing out money to every black face you see.

See what kind of gratitude you get.

=========

Slavery has been a standard fact of life since the beginning of recorded history. The US was one of the first places in the world to end it. It still exists in Africa.

Reparations: Half a million dead (mostly) white men aren’t enough? How about 50 years of Welfare? How much is enough? Oh, gee, thats not the point is it? The point is unending moral blackmail, pardon the expression, as long as whitey has a dime, the poor oppressed culled folk can shake him down for another handout.

GET OVER IT.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

IAs for the Native Americans, they are doing quite well at getting back at the conquerers through their casinos!

A few tribes maybe, but not most. I send money to several Catholic missions to the Sioux, and those people are poor and hurting - as are many other tribes.

 

[Beau_Ouiville]

Well you just go ahead and get the ball rolling and start handing out money to every black face you see.

See what kind of gratitude you get.

OK, I just did. The reception was very positive and the gratitude was sincere. Of course, it was in my home.

Slavery has been a standard fact of life since the beginning of recorded history. The US was one of the first places in the world to end it. It still exists in Africa.

I think it ended in the UK prior to the forced emancipation in the USA. But we were not talking about slavery.

Reparations: Half a million dead (mostly) white men aren’t enough? How about 50 years of Welfare? How much is enough?

Two things: Blacks fought in every US war including my ancestor in the Civil War. There are numerically more whites than blacks in this country receiving ‘welfare’. How much is enough for them?

The point is unending moral blackmail, pardon the expression, as long as whitey has a dime, the poor oppressed culled folk can shake him down for another handout.

If you read my post, I said the point is not to fool oneself. Thanks for the dialect, though.

 

[thegreypiper]

*Well you just go ahead and get the ball rolling and start handing out money to every black face you see.

See what kind of gratitude you get.*

OK, I just did. The reception was very positive and the gratitude was sincere. Of course, it was in my home.

Oh har har hardy har har. You’re a riot, Alice!

Slavery has been a standard fact of life since the beginning of recorded history.

**I think it ended in the UK prior to the forced emancipation in the USA. But we were not talking about slavery.
**

Quite right, Britain ended slavery a couple decades before the US did, end without much fuss or fanfare. But excuse me? We are not talking about slavry? Pls refer to the thread caption. And if we are not talking about slavery, then what are reparations for?

Reparations: Half a million dead (mostly) white men aren’t enough? How about 50 years of Welfare? How much is enough?

Two things: Blacks fought in every US war including my ancestor in the Civil War. There are numerically more whites than blacks in this country receiving ‘welfare’. How much is enough for them?

Er, yes, that’s why I said “mostly” white men. Including at least two of my own ancestors who fought for the Union, and to free your ancestors. Hm? Oh, you’re quite welcome, don’t mention it. And we established an entire new country for you, called Liberia. Also let’s be clear on another point and shake the earth up a bit, yes, The Civil War was about slavery. I said THE CIVIL WAR *WAS *ABOUT SLAVERY. Different men may have fought for different reasons at different times, but slavery was the root of Confederate evil.

I would say two generations on welfare is enough for any family regardless of color. But I was considering the amount of government money (oops, that is to say, working people’s money; “government money” is a bit of an oxymoron) given over to African Americans since LBJ’s Great Leap Forward. Pardon, Great Society, You seem to be bright, care to make some calculations on that, then compare that with what numbers get tossed around as a “fair” sum for “reparations”?

The point is unending moral blackmail, pardon the expression, as long as whitey has a dime, the poor oppressed culled folk can shake him down for another handout.

If you read my post, I said the point is not to fool oneself. Thanks for the dialect, though.

Thanks, I can turn the dialect off and on as needed, as has been observed of a certain politician. Seriously, that was more in derision of racial arsonists like the Right Platitudinous Jesse Jackson and camerahound Al Sharpton, who engage in shameless blaxploitation to make a couple o’ bucks. Million, that is. And I stand by my assertion that about 90% of what passes for “racial dialogue” in this country is moral blackmail.

 

[Beau_Ouiville]

And if we are not talking about slavery, then what are reparations for?

Evil financial persecution of non-whites in this country post-bellum. That’s easy to quantify.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

I think it ended in the UK prior to the forced emancipation in the USA.

1807 Britain passes the Abolition of the Slave Trade Act which outlaws the British Atlantic slave trade.
1811 Slavery is abolished in Spain and the Spanish colonies. Cuba, however, refuses to accept the ban and continues to deal in slaves.
1813 Slave trading is banned by Sweden.
1814 Slave trading is banned by The Netherlands.
1817 Slave trading is abolished by France although it is not made effective until 1826.
1819 Portugal abolishes the slave trade north of the equator.
1819 Britain places a naval squadron off the West African coast to enforce the ban on slave trading.
1833 The Abolition of Slavery Act is passed. It brings into effect the gradual abolition of slavery in all British colonies. Plantation owners in the West Indies receive £20 million in compensation.
1848 Slavery is abolished by France.
1851 Slave trading is abolished by Brazil.

1865 It takes a massive and bloody Civil War to officially abolish slavery in the United States.

 

[stanmaxkolbe]

WOW! STOP THE PRESSES!

Beau, Rich, and myself are in agreement on a thread!!! :extrahappy:

I just knew they’d come around to my way of thinking.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

WOW! STOP THE PRESSES!

Beau, Rich, and myself are in agreement on a thread!!! :extrahappy:

I just knew they’d come around to my way of thinking.

LOL! My goodness! Maybe so!

 

[stanmaxkolbe]

LOL! My goodness! Maybe so!

Got to love ya my Catholic Air Force brother.

 

[sidbrown]

Here’s what a white priest explained to me: Every white person in America benefitted from racial discrimination against blacks in the US.

Because of various types of subjugation, white folks were able to take home more money (and get better health care) and support their businesses better and educated there families better. Thus the entire white community got a benefit and the minority communities were harmed unfairly. The effects of such discrimination surely did not end in 1964, either. Bad health, bad neighborhoods near toxic wastes and bad living conditions stayed bad.

And, despite the views of Scalia, it does not matter if the whites immigrated here after emancipation or not. European POWs in the US were able to be fed in accommodations which were barred to US soldiers! And it is well-known that unions in our major cities had clauses restricting membership to the relatives and descendants of union members. This perpetuated the relegating of minorities to second class status and kept them in lower paying jobs. So minorities had less money to leave to their children and grandchildren.

What about white who never even met blacks? Chuck Yeager, a high school dropout from WV, became an officer in WWII. He was able to send an officer’s pay home to his relatives in the largely white state. This was a status which largely was unavailable to minorities during that war, so they sent less money home on a enlisted man’s pay. So, it does not matter even if whites here in America had been unfamiliar with black folks, they all benefited.

You could say that since 1865 white Americans had benefited from special treatment which was based on race. A sort of leg up like ‘legacy admissions’ to colleges, or, affirmative action.

Now, when you view history through that sort of lens, and realize that every day racial majorities in the US continue to benefit from racial discrimination, reparations begin to make a lot more sense.

Americans have also benefited from the use of the land that was stolen from the American Indian. Was it right to kill the American Indian and steal his land from him?

 

[didymus]

Americans have also benefited from the use of the land that was stolen from the American Indian. Was it right to kill the American Indian and steal his land from him?

Easy, we took all that land by “right” of conquest. We should just say so and quit looking for any other justification – and also not beat ourselves up about it overmuch. Conquest is, historically, how countries are born and die. We wanted the Indians’ land so we went in there and took it. Good for us, bad for the Indians.

Now, as for African-Americans, Beau is talking about injustices inflicted after emancipation, after the Thirteenth, Fourteenth & never-enforced Fifteenth Amendments, when they were legally free and equal citizens but never treated as such.
Even if all racial discrimination had magically stopped with the passage of the Civil Rights Act and the Voting Rights Act in '64 and '65 that would not have made up for the hundred years that blacks were treated as semi-free sub-citizens.