Episcopal Parish Petitions to Join the Ordinariate

[gurneyhalleck1]

The Anglican Continuum and Anglican Communion are two different entities. Ask GKC about that; he’s a continuing Anglo-Catholic.

I agree that TEC is dead already and only rotting more each day; ACNA is growing BUT the problem is that ACNA is allowing women’s ordination. You can talk to bishops like Ackerman, Schofield, and Iker and they’ll all tell you this: “women’s ordination is heresy, sinful, and dangerous.” But when you ask them why they’re in an organization (ACNA) that allows a heresy, they’ll give you this watered-down goofy language about agreeing to disagree and trying to focus on what we agree on, not where we differ, yada yada. Bottom line is compromising with heresy is, as my dad would say, “bad joo joo!”
I hate to say it but so far ACNA is TEC without abortions and homosexuals. There is much the same liberal mindset and the chaotic polity of its former life. I have serious, serious concerns about ACNA. And I share your bewilderment as to WHY ACNA would even care about union with Canterbury? Go figure…sigh

Oh, I must have misread what you posted. I think the ACNA, which is simply in its infancy at the pesent, will eventually surpass TEC in membership. Schori is presiding over a denomination that is half a corpse. The money won’t last forever. Meanwhile, daily more flock to the Continuum, especially after they get so totally fed up with some of the comments Schori makes, such as “individual salvation” is a western heresy.

I’m not sure that Canterbury is ready to acknowledge the ACNA over TEC, and quite frankly, I’m not sure I’d want to be associated with Canterbury.

 

[GKC]

I hope you mean university of south carolina and NOT University of Southern California! yuck! USC in southern calif. stands for “university of spoiled children”

Oddly, the Supreme Court has ruled that for commercial purposes, USC means Southern Cal. Even though South Carolina is the oldest state supported school in the country.

I still use USC.

GKC

 

[CARV]

The pope cannot depose or deal with them so he’s stealing away their best parishoners leaving them only the goons and lefties and eventually the only real Anglicans will be the continuers!

Goons and lefties. That’s how you see my family and all the families that attend my church. Nice.

I don’t understand all the whining by the conservatives. If you don’t like the Episcopal Church ot the Anglican Communion because they have modernist or liberal views then just leave and find a church that you agree with. Why is there such animosity towards people those whom they disagree. For cryin out loud, is it realistic to expect every Christian to hold the same conservative views?

I am happy for those who wish to leave the Episcopal Church for the Catholic Church by way of individual conversion or group conversion through this new process. Wish them the best. If anybody wants to remain bitter about the liberalization of the Episcopal Church they need to just get over it and move on. They will be happier when it is behind them.

P.S. Sorry but the Phillies are going to stomp the Giants and you know it.

 

[Bluegoat]

Goons and lefties. That’s how you see my family and all the families that attend my church. Nice.

I don’t understand all the whining by the conservatives. If you don’t like the Episcopal Church ot the Anglican Communion because they have modernist or liberal views then just leave and find a church that you agree with. Why is there such animosity towards people those whom they disagree. For cryin out loud, is it realistic to expect every Christian to hold the same conservative views?

I am happy for those who wish to leave the Episcopal Church for the Catholic Church by way of individual conversion or group conversion through this new process. Wish them the best. If anybody wants to remain bitter about the liberalization of the Episcopal Church they need to just get over it and move on. They will be happier when it is behind them.

P.S. Sorry but the Phillies are going to stomp the Giants and you know it.

So we have the people that actually believe what classical Anglicanism believes, who are being pushed out of their parishes and being told they don’t belong by those whose version of Anglicanism would be totally unrecognizable to someone who lived less than a century ago. Even if the whole parish decides to “find a new denomination” they are told they can’t bring their church buildings with them. If the diocese goes, they are told they are putting themselves outside the Anglican Communion!

You seriously think it is those people who should find a new church? Why not those who embrace a religious viewpoint that has only a historical connection to Anglicanism? They could go some place that has the smells and bells, and any theological ideas they like.

 

[CARV]

So we have the people that actually believe what classical Anglicanism believes, who are being pushed out of their parishes and being told they don’t belong by those whose version of Anglicanism would be totally unrecognizable to someone who lived less than a century ago. Even if the whole parish decides to “find a new denomination” they are told they can’t bring their church buildings with them. If the diocese goes, they are told they are putting themselves outside the Anglican Communion!

You seriously think it is those people who should find a new church? Why not those who embrace a religious viewpoint that has only a historical connection to Anglicanism? They could go some place that has the smells and bells, and any theological ideas they like.

You know the irony of the situation is that Catholic Christians in the 16th century could have said the same thing to the adherants of “classical Anglicanism” in the good ole days when Anglicanism was pure.

The truth is that all churches, Anglican, Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran, (all religions really) evolve over time. You can’t dispute that. The majority of Episcopal Church clery and laity accepted a tolerant view of women’s ordination and homosexuality. If you can’t worship with people like that then don’t be bitter just find another group to worship with.

And nobody is being pushed out. You are most welcome at my parish. It is the conservatives that think the liberals are religious lepers not the other way around.

 

[Eutychus123]

You know the irony of the situation is that Catholic Christians in the 16th century could have said the same thing to the adherants of “classical Anglicanism” in the good ole days when Anglicanism was pure.

The truth is that all churches, Anglican, Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran, (all religions really) evolve over time. You can’t dispute that. The majority of Episcopal Church clery and laity accepted a tolerant view of women’s ordination and homosexuality. If you can’t worship with people like that then don’t be bitter just find another group to worship with.

And nobody is being pushed out. You are most welcome at my parish. It is the conservatives that think the liberals are religious lepers not the other way around.

I disagree. People are certainly being pushed out. I have heard it from the pulpit in TEC churches that those who are unhappy with the direction can leave.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

You’re welcome to come to the liberal parishes, but if you leave, they sue you! Funny form of Christian brotherhood…

You know the irony of the situation is that Catholic Christians in the 16th century could have said the same thing to the adherants of “classical Anglicanism” in the good ole days when Anglicanism was pure.

The truth is that all churches, Anglican, Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran, (all religions really) evolve over time. You can’t dispute that. The majority of Episcopal Church clery and laity accepted a tolerant view of women’s ordination and homosexuality. If you can’t worship with people like that then don’t be bitter just find another group to worship with.

And nobody is being pushed out. You are most welcome at my parish. It is the conservatives that think the liberals are religious lepers not the other way around.

 

[BernadetteM]

I disagree. People are certainly being pushed out. I have heard it from the pulpit in TEC churches that those who are unhappy with the direction can leave.

It has been that way for over 28 years. But this is also true with the Continuing Anglican groups. If some want to accept the Ordinariate and the vote is in the favor of the ones who don’t the ones going to Rome must leave, as it is if the vote is the other way around.

Of course the property situation might be different.

We left TEC and won because the building was donated by the founder priest and he made sure that it would stay with the parishioners and did not belong to the diocese, but of course TEC sued anyway and lost.

It is really sad to see all these groups, TEC and the Continuing Anglican ones so divided.

In the end we had to leave our parish years ago and became Catholic or Orthodox and the parish is now again considering the Ordinariate.

I really believe that satan is having a field day with all this division.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette

 

[CARV]

I disagree. People are certainly being pushed out. I have heard it from the pulpit in TEC churches that those who are unhappy with the direction can leave.

So what? If the gay bishops in L.A. and NH bother you, you can leave. That is hardly being pushed out. Pushed out would be a conservative parish telling a gay couple and their family to leave because they don’t alow openly gay couples to pollute their church. Giving you the option to leave and ordering you to leave aren’t the same. You’re being a little melodramatic.

 

[CARV]

You’re welcome to come to the liberal parishes, but if you leave, they sue you! Funny form of Christian brotherhood…

I hardly believe that you are in a position to lecture anyone on Christian brotherhood. You labeled my family as “goons” because we attend an Episcopal Church. Get off you’re high horse.

 

[bkayw]

Prayers for the Episcopals. Their churches and their faith are being decimated from within.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Wow, CARV, I don’t recall telling YOU and YOUR FAMILY that you’re “goons?” LOL…High horse…hilarious…You guys go around the country suing the pants off anyone who dares to break with your liberal “national church” that by its very charter and history and own laws is NOT a national church at all! A group of folks that teach homosexual “marriage,” that Jesus Christ is “a” way to God but definitely not THE way to God, a group that wants bisexual cross-dressing priests, women “priests,” is generally pro-abortion, co-worships in many cases with pagans like Hindus and native americans allowing them to take communion, lawsuits up the yin-yang, puhhleeze. I’m on a high horse? I’m not a liberal elitist. I proclaim Jesus Christ as Lord. Many Episcopalians can scarcely muster such a simple statement. If Spong and Schiori are your kind of folk, you’re in the right place. Have I labeled YOU and yours as goons by name? Show me that. If I labelled liberals as such, that’s one thing. I have never called your family anything. I don’t know you nor you I.

If you find “Christians” who sue their fellow Christians within the same denomination and then even openly, publically admit “we can’t afford to staff and run that parish anyway! Just sell it and collect the $$$ and by no means re-sell it to the conservatives!” then you seriously are indeed lacking in brotherhood. Period.

I hardly believe that you are in a position to lecture anyone on Christian brotherhood. You labeled my family as “goons” because we attend an Episcopal Church. Get off you’re high horse.

 

[CARV]

Prayers for the Episcopals. Their churches and their faith are being decimated from within.

I see you are a Catholic revert. Don’t forget to pray for the well being of your own church as well. I understand there has been a worldwide problem with sexual abuse of children and an issue of bishops covering it up. So I’ll keep your church in my prayers too.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

But what happens when the liberals don’t want to break off with the conservative majority? Get a lawyer, sue…drain the opposition of $$$ until they break…

So what? If the gay bishops in L.A. and NH bother you, you can leave. That is hardly being pushed out. Pushed out would be a conservative parish telling a gay couple and their family to leave because they don’t alow openly gay couples to pollute their church. Giving you the option to leave and ordering you to leave aren’t the same. You’re being a little melodramatic.

 

[CARV]

The pope cannot depose or deal with them so he’s stealing away their best parishoners leaving them only the goons and lefties and eventually the only real Anglicans will be the continuers! …

You said it right here. Only the goons like my family and I will be left in the church after the “real” anglicans leave.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I sure did. I never named your family as goons. If you choose to categorize yourself in that group, that’s not my problem. I simply stated what everyone else is saying about Anglicanism. The Anglo-Catholics with traditional morality are bailing to some degree. The evangelicals who can’t take the liberal malarky are bailing for non-denoms and other more low church endeavors. The ACNA is not looking to be a great success. The Episcopal Church, and intellectual honesty calls on you to be honest about this, is falling apart polity-wise, unity-wise, financially, and attendance is horrifically low. The huge bulk of Episcopalian parishes are now ultra liberal and you know that. From the point of view of a traditional Anglican who views marriage as between man and a woman, homosexuality to be disordered and sinful, abortion to be murder, worshipping with pagans to be sickening, abuse of power as in PB Schiori to be unconscionable, and a group of people that contain a significant amount of Spongian types who can’t even say “Jesus is Lord,” it’s pretty natural to view that group as goons.

I happen to have two awesome friends here on CAF. Both are Episcopalians from what is left of the conservative fringe of TEC. When I said “goons” they knew full well I wasn’t referring to them and said as much. They knew exactly the group in TEC to which I was referring. I was not out to assassinate your family’s character and you know it, CARV.

You said it right here. Only the goons like my family and I will be left in the church after the “real” anglicans leave.

 

[CARV]

But what happens when the liberals don’t want to break off with the conservative majority? Get a lawyer, sue…drain the opposition of $$$ until they break…

The issue is more complicated than that. Whether or not you agree or not, the Episcopal Church claims a legal right to the property which is worth millions of dollars. I’m sorry that money is an issue but it is. The Episcopal Church has to provide health care and retirement benefits for its loyal clergy and thier families. That money doesn’t grow on trees. What is the leadership supposed to do? Tell their people "Yea, sorry guys, we can’t make good on providing healthcare for your kids and you’ll be saying mass from a wheelchair when you’re 90 because when a minority of conservatives (who think you’re a bunch of heretical goons anyway) left we let them take tens of millions of dollars of property with them without any recourse to the law. Would you tell them that? Don’t judge them so harshly.

I’m sorry that people feel like they are being robbed. Many Episcopalians feel the same way. Lets let the law settle this and we can put it behind us. Thw hole thing seems rather petty to focus on.

 

[CARV]

I sure did. I never named your family as goons. If you choose to categorize yourself in that group, that’s not my problem. I simply stated what everyone else is saying about Anglicanism. The Anglo-Catholics with traditional morality are bailing to some degree. The evangelicals who can’t take the liberal malarky are bailing for non-denoms and other more low church endeavors. The ACNA is not looking to be a great success. The Episcopal Church, and intellectual honesty calls on you to be honest about this, is falling apart polity-wise, unity-wise, financially, and attendance is horrifically low. The huge bulk of Episcopalian parishes are now ultra liberal and you know that. From the point of view of a traditional Anglican who views marriage as between man and a woman, homosexuality to be disordered and sinful, abortion to be murder, worshipping with pagans to be sickening, abuse of power as in PB Schiori to be unconscionable, and a group of people that contain a significant amount of Spongian types who can’t even say “Jesus is Lord,” it’s pretty natural to view that group as goons.

I happen to have two awesome friends here on CAF. Both are Episcopalians from what is left of the conservative fringe of TEC. When I said “goons” they knew full well I wasn’t referring to them and said as much. They knew exactly the group in TEC to which I was referring. I was not out to assassinate your family’s character and you know it, CARV.

I can’t comment on polity or the finances or attendance of the Episcopal Church. I’m just a regular guy who goes to church. I wouldn’t consider myself conservative but that hardly should label me a goon. How am I supposed to take that comment? If not me and my family then who are you talking about. Everybody else at my parish? Diocese?

 

[bkayw]

“I see you are a Catholic revert. Don’t forget to pray for the well being of your own church as well. I understand there has been a worldwide problem with sexual abuse of children and an issue of bishops covering it up. So I’ll keep your church in my prayers too.”

That was the warning our Church needed about the perversions of noncelibate same sex attraction.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Now let’s see who’s on a high horse, CARV? My parish is being sued by TEC right now. And guess what? TEC isn’t just suing the church for its property and school, they’re suing EACH MEMBER of the vestry individually by name for significant $$$! They only have like 50 parishoners while our ACNA parish has about 300. They have openly admitted that if they win, they can’t afford to pay for the building so they’ll sell it. Schiori made it clear in a Modesto Bee article to “Bishop” Jerry Lamb that they are NOT to sell it back to the conservatives. Better to sell it to private business and turn the hallowed ground into a pub than let those nasty ole’ conservatives keep their property. So you can say this is no big woop and a distraction or much ado about zip, but it is so a big deal. My rector and parishoners are fighting for the building, school, parish hall, everything. The liberals were not forced to leave in any way. They were welcome to stay even if they did vote to stay in TEC and lost. They were welcomed with open arms. I remember it all and how it went down.

It’s not all about retirements and $$$. TEC is a wealthy denomination so you have your facts wrong. ACNA was the ones risking finances and retirement. They made it work with financial groups and retirement companies, etc. They made it work with far less than TEC so TEC can make it work.

Ever consider if TEC would quit suing people they could take the millions in lawsuits and actually pay for their clergy’s retirement? You do know that the lawsuits alone have been the primary monster in their financial strains, right? They’re shooting themselves in the foot.

What my diocese of San Joaquin did in leaving TEC was perfectly legal by rules of the canons and constitutions of San Joaquin. They amended it legally, the entire diocese voted, then +Schofield, bless the man, allowed each individual parish to vote for themselves if they were 100% sure they wanted to leave. If they decided to stay, Schofield assured them, go in peace with his blessings. And two parishes in my area did stay TEC parishes and not once did Schofield issue reprisals or threats or nasty rumors and bashing.

In fact, the neighboring town has a TEC cathedral and they kicked out their conservatives. I kid you not. The vestry held a meeting and publically told the organist and one vestry member to hit the road and leave. They were told, “you’re no longer welcome here.” and they go to my parish now.

TEC is hardly the victim.

The issue is more complicated than that. Whether or not you agree or not, the Episcopal Church claims a legal right to the property which is worth millions of dollars. I’m sorry that money is an issue but it is. The Episcopal Church has to provide health care and retirement benefits for its loyal clergy and thier families. That money doesn’t grow on trees. What is the leadership supposed to do? Tell their people "Yea, sorry guys, we can’t make good on providing healthcare for your kids and you’ll be saying mass from a wheelchair when you’re 90 because when a minority of conservatives (who think you’re a bunch of heretical goons anyway) left we let them take tens of millions of dollars of property with them without any recourse to the law. Would you tell them that? Don’t judge them so harshly.

I’m sorry that people feel like they are being robbed. Many Episcopalians feel the same way. Lets let the law settle this and we can put it behind us. Thw hole thing seems rather petty to focus on.