Eternity and foreknowledge

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Bookcat said:
God does not predestine people to hell.

Such would be contrary to the Teaching of the Church.
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Perhaps, but logically, if all future events are preordained, then the table has been set. The Christian teachings are illogical.
 
oldcelt said:
Perhaps, but logically, if all future events are preordained, then the table has been set. The Christian teachings are illogical.
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I think you are not understanding “preordained”? You have free will to accept Jesus and repent. You willed not to. It was foreseen by God that you would reject but God did not make you- if this is what you mean by “preordained”.
 
oldcelt said:
Perhaps, but logically, if all future events are preordained, then the table has been set. The Christian teachings are illogical.
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No you simply misunderstand Church Teachings and Catholic Theology and Philosophy
 
Bookcat said:
No you simply misunderstand Church Teachings and Catholic Theology and Philosophy
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I think not. I understand and came to reject the Christian version of God. God cannot create with infallible foreknowledge and immutable preordination of events and escape all responsibility for the fate of his creation. That defies logic, and I prefer that the creator be a logical force.
 
opusAquinas said:
I think you are not understanding “preordained”? You have free will to accept Jesus and repent. You willed not to. It was foreseen by God that you would reject but God did not make you- if this is what you mean by “preordained”.
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Preordain: verb
past tense: preordained; past participle: preordained
decide or determine (an outcome or course of action) beforehand.
“you might think the company’s success was preordained”
synonyms: predestine, destine, foreordain, ordain, fate, predetermine, determine

I didn’t choose the word; the writers of the approved Catholic Encyclopedia did. Its meaning is not up for debate…it is the same no mater which source you choose.
 
And we follow Jesus who is the* Logos *–so no worries about what we actually hold not being reasonable. It is.
 
Bookcat said:
Rather I say yes. As is seen in reading what you wrote. You have misunderstandings. You rejected what we do not hold.
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Believe me, I have read the explanations that are offered for these contradictions. Lo and behold, they determine it to be a mystery how God can do these things and still give man free will. Mystery means they cannot explain the obvious contradictions away.
 
oldcelt said:
Perhaps, but logically, if all future events are preordained, then the table has been set. The Christian teachings are illogical.
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Such would be a misunderstanding of what Catholic Teaching or Theology or Philosophy discusses.
 
Bookcat said:
And we follow Jesus who is the* Logos *–so no worries about what we actually hold not being reasonable. It is.
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Then why are you on a philosophy forum. If it all simply is, what is there to discuss?
 
oldcelt said:
Believe me, I have read the explanations that are offered for these contradictions. Lo and behold, they determine it to be a mystery how God can do these things and still give man free will. Mystery means they cannot explain the obvious contradictions away.
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Your words thus far -your misunderstandings - manifest that you need to look again -perhaps at different or better sources. These are very ‘deep’ subjects. Not something that is just “read”.
 
Bookcat said:
Your words thus far -your misunderstandings - manifest that you need to look again -perhaps at different or better sources. These are very ‘deep’ subjects. Not something that is just “read”.
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Perhaps the same advice applies to you. My comprehension is excellent and every Catholic source arrives at the same conclusion…it is a mystery. If by going beyond reading you are implying that I seek divine revelation, then that will never happen.
 
oldcelt said:
Perhaps the same advice applies to you. My comprehension is excellent .
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Your misunderstandings already present in the thread show that more is needed.

Sometimes we can read something and think we get it -but we do not. We may need to get with others -say in a University course etc to come to see that what we though was said here or there - was not said or meant that way - and that something else was really what was meant.

I know for example I would need someone versed Algebra to help me really get that.

It can take time to unlearn misunderstandings we have about a subject. I am not saying that you will accept what the Church Teaches or Theology or Philosophy discusses necessarily -but misunderstandings of what that is can be cleared away.
 
Bookcat said:
Your misunderstandings already present in the thread show that more is needed.
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You confuse misunderstanding with rejection. Catholic dogma is as follows: God created all things with infallible foreknowledge, he immutably preordained all future events but allowed for man’s free will. Some he predestined for glory (the elect) some he merely granted sufficient grace to attain salvation. How he accomplished this is a mystery.
 
oldcelt said:
You confuse misunderstanding with rejection. Catholic dogma is as follows: God created all things with infallible foreknowledge, he immutably preordained all future events but allowed for man’s free will. Some he predestined for glory (the elect) some he merely granted sufficient grace to attain salvation. How he accomplished this is a mystery.
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See you misunderstand various matters.
 
God is outside of time.

It not so much really “foreknowledge”.

It is *not so much that God “foresees” -as “sees” *. All of time is before God–all our decisions etc are all as it were freshly before God. They are seen as they are actually taking place a particular instant in time.

It is *not *as it if is some “play written in advance” where the actors simply come on stage at their cue and read their lines.

Our choices - are part of things. As are the choices of others around us and circumstances that intersect. All is involved.
 
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