Eternity and foreknowledge

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I suspect you will be truly shocked to find out that the “plan” of “this God” IS the absolute freedom of human agents. The problem with absolute freedom is that, in a moral sense, absolute freedom is not compatible with evil and abuse of absolute power. Ergo, absolute power and freedom abused to the detriment of others by irresponsible use of it means freedom will be rescinded. He who can be trusted in little things can be trusted in big things. This life is, in some sense, a life of little things where our capacity to handle freedom will determine whether that freedom will be fully endowed to us.

One of the reasons that “He who sins is a slave to sin” is that he who sins proves his inability to handle freedom and thereby relinquishes it. Sin reduces our capacity to act freely precisely because we distance ourselves from the source of freedom and power.

You are very mistaken in your belief that moral discipline entails a loss of freedom. Left to themselves the fleas can only rise to the level of fleas. Discipline and training from the Master of the Universe means the “fleas” can far surpass mere flea-like behaviour.
In this case, the “fleas” are trained and graced not merely to entertain small minded spectators in the Flea Circus Maximus – despite the proliferation of advertisements claiming such things – but to share the very life and freedom of the Master Himself.
So, you believe that God directly intervenes to discipline his creation? I believe that other human beings do that using the moral code that has developed over the millenia. There are many people who manage to live a moral and decent life without ANY belief in a deity. Slavery to sin, as you call it, is an individual failing.
So far as a plan…I see no evidence of any plan governing humanity. All I see is gradual development that is not reliant on an interventionist deity.
 
All I see is gradual development that is not reliant on an interventionist deity.
The “gradual development” of morality is a myth. The past century and a half has been the most genocidal in human history and much of it owing to atheistic regimes that subsume to themselves ultimate authority over life and death.

God need not be “interventionist” in any obvious way to hold human beings consistent to a modicum of moral behaviour. If God is Truth and Goodness then any effect truth and goodness have upon the moral character of individual human beings is, in that sense, an “intervention” by God, even if those human beings do not recognize it as such or refuse to acknowledge the nature of God.

If God is the Creator and Sustainer of all creation then when human beings act according to the basic truth, goodness and order in the universe and what is basically good in human nature, then that behaviour is attributable to God, despite any objections to the contrary.

If anything, rather than consistent moral progress, progressive liberalism - based as it is upon divorcing human will from traditional concepts of Tao, the Good, natural law and conceptions of human nature, such that human morality is becoming more and more grounded upon a mere will to power - will lead us down an increasingly thornier path where all sense of morality will be lost.

Apparent moral “progress” can be made to appear as if improvement is happening merely by lowering standards. All human beings can be said to be morally impeccable if the gold standard for human morality is merely what humans, in fact, do, rather than what they ought to do.
 
The “gradual development” of morality is a myth. The past century and a half has been the most genocidal in human history and much of it owing to atheistic regimes that subsume to themselves ultimate authority over life and death.

God need not be “interventionist” in any obvious way to hold human beings consistent to a modicum of moral behaviour. If God is Truth and Goodness then any effect truth and goodness have upon the moral character of individual human beings is, in that sense, an “intervention” by God, even if those human beings do not recognize it as such or refuse to acknowledge the nature of God.

If God is the Creator and Sustainer of all creation then when human beings act according to the basic truth, goodness and order in the universe and what is basically good in human nature, then that behaviour is attributable to God, despite any objections to the contrary.

If anything, rather than consistent moral progress, progressive liberalism - based as it is upon divorcing human will from traditional concepts of Tao, the Good, natural law and conceptions of human nature, such that human morality is becoming more and more grounded upon a mere will to power - will lead us down an increasingly thornier path where all sense of morality will be lost.

Apparent moral “progress” can be made to appear as if improvement is happening merely by lowering standards. All human beings can be said to be morally impeccable if the gold standard for human morality is merely what humans, in fact, do, rather than what they ought to do.
There are a great many ifs in your post, many of which rely entirely on matters of faith. I believe that God is the creator, but not sustainer of the universe. The universe is self-regulating and quite chaotic from all observable evidence…and so on.

Gradual development is certainly no myth if one examines history with no preconceived notions. The problems to which you refer are just as likely caused by increased population making every event seem worse than the same type 1000, 2000 years ago. 2000 years ago it was pantheistic regimes doing the slaughtering, then came theist regimes…now secular.
 
Catechism:

308 The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator. God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes: “For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.” Far from diminishing the creature’s dignity, this truth enhances it. Drawn from nothingness by God’s power, wisdom and goodness, it can do nothing if it is cut off from its origin, for “without a Creator the creature vanishes.” Still less can a creature attain its ultimate end without the help of God’s grace.

scborromeo.org/ccc/ccc_toc.htm
 
I believe that God is the creator, but not sustainer of the universe. The universe is self-regulating
Catechism:

308 The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator. God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes: “For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.” Far from diminishing the creature’s dignity, this truth enhances it. Drawn from nothingness by God’s power, wisdom and goodness, it can do nothing if it is cut off from its origin, for “without a Creator the creature vanishes.” Still less can a creature attain its ultimate end without the help of God’s grace.

Note especially not only God being first cause but regarding “secondary causes” as well as the later part.

scborromeo.org/ccc/ccc_toc.htm
 
There are a great many ifs in your post, many of which rely entirely on matters of faith. I believe that God is the creator, but not sustainer of the universe. The universe is self-regulating and quite chaotic from all observable evidence…and so on.
Well, no. If the universe came into existence 13.7 billion years ago, then its continued existence is dependent upon whatever brought it into existence. This was Aquinas’ point when he distinguished between **accidental **and per se causality.

A series of accidental causes could, he argued, go on through infinite time, but would still depend upon per se causality to sustain the series itself since the “accidental” nature of the causal relationships within the series means it must have dependencies outside of the causal sequence that must be referenced to explain why the interconnectedness exists. The sequence cannot exist a se, but can only exist by virtue of whatever it was that bestowed its nature (i.e., the set of causal dependencies within the series) and sustains it. An accidental series requires an explanation outside of the series.

Aquinas’ example was the generation of living things. The fact that progeny can "self-regulate” and survive independently of their parents does not mean they can survive a se (exist by their very nature.) It only means they can survive independently of the agents (parents) that brought them into being. The entire process of reproduction, however, is itself dependent upon the existence of per se causality which keeps each living thing in being. Living things (accidental causes) might exist independently of who or what brought them into existence, but, ultimately, accidental effects in any series depend upon per se causes.

A per se series of causes is the only possible explanatorily sufficient series because it properly and fully identifies (and explains) what bestows existence itself on any effect. Suppressing any one (or first) cause in a per se series directly suppresses the effect, effectively ending its existence or obtaining in reality. It is in understanding per se causality that we begin to understand that existing things that come into being can only be ultimately explained by per se causality, i.e., causality which originates from that which does exist by virtue of what it is. Only if something exists a se (having the explanation of why it exists integral to the nature of what it is) can we ever arrive at a sufficient explanation for why things exist at all. Otherwise, we could ultimately explain nothing whatsoever.

The universe does not explain itself, nor does it exist a se, since it came into being 13.7 billion years ago. It could only explain itself if it did exist a se (simply by virtue of what it is) but if it came to be then it need not exist and therefore why it came to be must find its explanation in something outside of it, since it does not and cannot explain itself or why it came to be. Things that come to be CANNOT explain why they did come to be.

Things don’t bootstrap themselves into being – not even universes – otherwise we would have reason to accept that anything could just pop into being without reference to a sufficient cause to explain why it did.
 
Well, no. If the universe came into existence 13.7 billion years ago, then its continued existence is dependent upon whatever brought it into existence. This was Aquinas’ point when he distinguished between **accidental **and per se causality.

A series of accidental causes could, he argued, go on through infinite time, but would still depend upon per se causality to sustain the series itself since the “accidental” nature of the causal relationships within the series means it must have dependencies outside of the causal sequence that must be referenced to explain why the interconnectedness exists. The sequence cannot exist a se, but can only exist by virtue of whatever it was that bestowed its nature (i.e., the set of causal dependencies within the series) and sustains it. An accidental series requires an explanation outside of the series.

Aquinas’ example was the generation of living things. The fact that progeny can "self-regulate” and survive independently of their parents does not mean they can survive a se (exist by their very nature.) It only means they can survive independently of the agents (parents) that brought them into being. The entire process of reproduction, however, is itself dependent upon the existence of per se causality which keeps each living thing in being. Living things (accidental causes) might exist independently of who or what brought them into existence, but, ultimately, accidental effects in any series depend upon per se causes.

A per se series of causes is the only possible explanatorily sufficient series because it properly and fully identifies (and explains) what bestows existence itself on any effect. Suppressing any one (or first) cause in a per se series directly suppresses the effect, effectively ending its existence or obtaining in reality. It is in understanding per se causality that we begin to understand that existing things that come into being can only be ultimately explained by per se causality, i.e., causality which originates from that which does exist by virtue of what it is. Only if something exists a se (having the explanation of why it exists integral to the nature of what it is) can we ever arrive at a sufficient explanation for why things exist at all. Otherwise, we could ultimately explain nothing whatsoever.

The universe does not explain itself, nor does it exist a se, since it came into being 13.7 billion years ago. It could only explain itself if it did exist a se (simply by virtue of what it is) but if it came to be then it need not exist and therefore why it came to be must find its explanation in something outside of it, since it does not and cannot explain itself or why it came to be. Things that come to be CANNOT explain why they did come to be.

Things don’t bootstrap themselves into being – not even universes – otherwise we would have reason to accept that anything could just pop into being without reference to a sufficient cause to explain why it did.
How do you answer the OP?
 
How do you answer the OP?
It’s actually rather simple. The creator brought the universe into existence,in my belief… the rest is pure conjecture. If anyone has some tangible evidence…I’m wide open for it.

John
 
Well, no. If the universe came into existence 13.7 billion years ago, then its continued existence is dependent upon whatever brought it into existence. This was Aquinas’ point when he distinguished between **accidental **and per se causality.

A series of accidental causes could, he argued, go on through infinite time, but would still depend upon per se causality to sustain the series itself since the “accidental” nature of the causal relationships within the series means it must have dependencies outside of the causal sequence that must be referenced to explain why the interconnectedness exists. The sequence cannot exist a se, but can only exist by virtue of whatever it was that bestowed its nature (i.e., the set of causal dependencies within the series) and sustains it. An accidental series requires an explanation outside of the series.

Aquinas’ example was the generation of living things. The fact that progeny can "self-regulate” and survive independently of their parents does not mean they can survive a se (exist by their very nature.) It only means they can survive independently of the agents (parents) that brought them into being. The entire process of reproduction, however, is itself dependent upon the existence of per se causality which keeps each living thing in being. Living things (accidental causes) might exist independently of who or what brought them into existence, but, ultimately, accidental effects in any series depend upon per se causes.

A per se series of causes is the only possible explanatorily sufficient series because it properly and fully identifies (and explains) what bestows existence itself on any effect. Suppressing any one (or first) cause in a per se series directly suppresses the effect, effectively ending its existence or obtaining in reality. It is in understanding per se causality that we begin to understand that existing things that come into being can only be ultimately explained by per se causality, i.e., causality which originates from that which does exist by virtue of what it is. Only if something exists a se (having the explanation of why it exists integral to the nature of what it is) can we ever arrive at a sufficient explanation for why things exist at all. Otherwise, we could ultimately explain nothing whatsoever.

The universe does not explain itself, nor does it exist a se, since it came into being 13.7 billion years ago. It could only explain itself if it did exist a se (simply by virtue of what it is) but if it came to be then it need not exist and therefore why it came to be must find its explanation in something outside of it, since it does not and cannot explain itself or why it came to be. Things that come to be CANNOT explain why they did come to be.

Things don’t bootstrap themselves into being – not even universes – otherwise we would have reason to accept that anything could just pop into being without reference to a sufficient cause to explain why it did.
As a Socratic, you make many assumptions.

John
 
How do you answer the OP?
God is eternal.
God is pure act.
If the world can be created but eternal then when did God think us up?
There is no “when” in eternity. Eternal means without or absent time.
So God has always thought of us?
There is no “always” in eternity. Eternal means without or absent time.
So is the very thought of us eternal?
Perhaps not, but that may merely mean without the temporality or temporal constraints that we are familiar with, although that also may NOT entail eternality but some other “time” scheme. You also seem to be confusing everlasting with eternal.

Both everlasting, in the sense of lasting for ever, and temporal relate to things constrained in some sense by time. The notion of God’s “thought” of us breaks down analogically if you try to impose our way of thinking on the eternality of God. The existence of created things - even in the sense of everlasting - entails temporality in some sense - it comes with the territory of being a contingent entity. Perhaps God alone is truly eternal - anything created including as a divine thought may simply require time (of some kind) as an aspect of what it essentially is.
 
Reason and Faith.
Reason and faith are both variables. Your reason and faith are not always the same as another’s. Reason tells me that foreknowledge, plan and preordination negate the possibility of human free will. A God that sustains and manipulates the universe would interfering with that will in a very tangible way.

John
 
Reason and faith are both variables. Your reason and faith are not always the same as another’s.
(My Faith is that of the Church - so yes it is the same as others and God can be known by anyone via reason - see my other quote -and such has been shared in reason by reasoning persons for ages)

This is “Catholic Answers” and you asked how I know…and I told you how I know.

Have a splendid day.

Footnote reference on Faith and Reason: w2.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_14091998_fides-et-ratio.html
 
So God has thought of us eternally.
God is eternal. That says nothing about the mode or manner of what he creates or even thinks. To assume God “thinks” as we think, or even that the way God “thinks” remotely or analogically resembles our thinking may be gravely in error. In particular, when we use that analog as grounds for drawing unwarranted conclusions such as “Creation must, therefore, exist eternally because God must create from his own mode of Being.”
 
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