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opusAquinas
Guest
Yes I agree, but common parlance seems to use “foreseen.”
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Bookcat
Guest
Which leads to ‘common misunderstandings’.
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opusAquinas
Guest
I think it is from St. Paul’s writing whom He foresaw etc…
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opusAquinas
Guest
I think it is from St. Paul’s writing whom He foresaw etc…Romans 8:
And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
But remember TULIP. There is an order even if no time.
ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/TULIP.htm
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Bookcat
Guest
Such is more an analogy from our perspective. Using human language from our perspective in time.
God is outside of time.
“To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy.” (CCC 600)
It not so much really “foreknowledge”.
It is not so much that God “foresees” -as “sees” . All of time is before God–all our decisions etc are all as it were freshly before God.
They are seen as they are actually taking place a particular instant in time.
It is not as it if is some “play written in advance” where the actors simply come on stage at their cue and read their lines.
Our choices - are part of things. As are the choices of others around us and circumstances that intersect. All is involved.
All moments in time are present to G
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Bookcat
Guest
Such is more an analogy from our perspective. Using human language from our perspective in time.
God is outside of time.
“To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy.” (CCC 600)
It not so much really “foreknowledge”.
It is not so much that God “foresees” -as “sees” . All of time is before God–all our decisions etc are all as it were freshly before God.
They are seen as they are actually taking place a particular instant in time.
It is not as it if is some “play written in advance” where the actors simply come on stage at their cue and read their lines.
Our choices - are part of things. As are the choices of others around us and circumstances that intersect. All is involved.
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opusAquinas
Guest
Yes I agree. God sees from eternity.
I think the language of “foreseeing” seems too temporal. And thus the common usage of “foreseeing” is a misunderstanding.
However, though when considering TULIP: Most theological positions hold God acts in sequence- like cause and effect - but without time. There is sequence of events that God planned from eternity.
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Bookcat
Guest
Not quite sure I follow such. And I think your thinking of God too much as like us.
“Sequence” still is time language…
No “time” to go look at the Protestant idea of TULIP again right now.
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DanAl
Guest
Yes, Creation is eternal to God. There’s no succession of temporal creations in the divine intellect since everything that was, is, and will be actualized was grasped all at once by God prior to the logical creation of the world.
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opusAquinas
Guest
Cause and effect does not require time but is sequential.Not quite sure I follow such. And I think your thinking of God too much as like us.
“Sequence” still is time language…
No “time” to go look at the Protestant idea of TULIP again right now.
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Peter_Plato
Guest
Not so obvious.
Even if we grant that God preordains everything BEFORE anything actually does occur, and God, furthermore, brings about ALL events in the sense of underwriting or causing to occur all that does occur, it is not clear that such preordination (decreeing, ruling, commanding, enjoining, establishing, etc., etc.) rules out responsible and free human agency.
The crucial question is: On what grounds does God decree, rule, command, etc.? If, before bringing about any particular effect, God absolutely - or to some lesser degree on a range of pertinent matters - defers to human free will, then even if any particular effect is preordained to transpire by an act of God’s power, that preordination may, itself, have been predetermined by responsible human agents prior to God’s preordination, i.e., by an act of human free will that was subsequently underwritten and actualized by God out of due respect for free (and morally responsible) human agency.
Given God’s eternality, his role in the sequence need not even require any duration in time, though the effect will be actualized in time.
Ergo, when any human moral agent makes a decision and undertakes an action, the effect can be said to be actualized (caused to occur) by God as a preordained matter, even in a second sense. The standing (i.e., preordained) decree, rule, command, etc., being simply: “Carry out the determinations made by human moral agents.”
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opusAquinas
Guest
You can write more clearly than this can’t you?
I think you need to read about the differences between God’s permissive and ordained will.
osv.com/OSVNewsweekly/ByIssue/Article/TabId/735/ArtMID/13636/ArticleID/2585/Discerning-Gods-positive-and-permissive-will.aspx
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Peter_Plato
Guest
Nope.
I find that just as in the Wild, Wild West, if you gain a reputation for being quick on the draw, you attract all kinds of low life who come a’gunnin fer ya.
Clear, concise and comprehensible writing attracts all kinds of disputatious characters. If I am deliberately obtuse, dimwitted, vague and unclear in my writing I find it effectively cuts down on the number of potential rebuttals. No clear target to take aim on makes it much more difficult for potential opponents to muster a counter argument, thus reducing response time and effort.
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oldcelt
Guest
Then, please correct me…with the understanding that I have likely read everything you have.
John
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oldcelt
Guest
As the creator of all, there should be no controversy about any of this. There is no question about the language usage, is there? A human moral agent cannot, by Christian definition, overcome the will of an omnipotent God. If so…well
John
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Mount_Carmel
Guest
Future events are reliant on previous causes and effects, and unless humanity are automata with no capacity for ‘choice’ and ‘free(ish) will’, then we influence our own outcomes, and the ‘table is not set’ until we make those choices.
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Bookcat
Guest
I imagine it would take more than a thread on a forum
(as would me if I needed correction about a particular subject)
I have already noted one example for you up above. forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=12885918&postcount=40
I will add quickly from memory (no “time” at the moment) that you say this or that is a dogma etc.
But do that what I have said in general as an important pause for yourself in your thinking that you know Catholic Theology etc. As I would need to do if I went to say a Jewish site and started discussing their beliefs and was told by those who were versed (say have a degree in their orthodox theology) in their Faith that I have various misunderstandings about their faith. No matter how much I may have read -or thought I understood- I ought to take pause from this.
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Peter_Plato
Guest
Any human moral agent cannot, IN THE END, overcome the will of the omnipotent God. Short term, however, is a different story. God, in the interim, permits human moral agents to “have at it” for a number of reasons, but that short term “overcoming” of God’s will is likewise under the control of God’s omnipotence. Why would we assume omnipotence could not manage a moral “leash” of sorts but must intractably and in every instance impose its will indomitably? God is dealing with living, thinking moral agents and not merely trained circus fleas, after all. No?
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oldcelt
Guest
I believe in absolute free will, but the God you described does not. If his will always prevails in the end, then how does anyone end up in hell? Does he not will that all might be saved? If God is exerting any control, then free will is an illusion. If we are living as part of a plan by this God, we are not free…we are agents of that plan. If that were the case we would be little more than trained fleas.
John
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Peter_Plato
Guest
I suspect you will be truly shocked to find out that the “plan” of “this God” IS the absolute freedom of human agents. The problem with absolute freedom is that, in a moral sense, absolute freedom is not compatible with evil and abuse of absolute power. Ergo, absolute power and freedom abused to the detriment of others by irresponsible use of it means freedom will be rescinded. He who can be trusted in little things can be trusted in big things. This life is, in some sense, a life of little things where our capacity to handle freedom will determine whether that freedom will be fully endowed to us.
One of the reasons that “He who sins is a slave to sin” is that he who sins proves his inability to handle freedom and thereby relinquishes it. Sin reduces our capacity to act freely precisely because we distance ourselves from the source of freedom and power.
You are very mistaken in your belief that moral discipline entails a loss of freedom. Left to themselves the fleas can only rise to the level of fleas. Discipline and training from the Master of the Universe means the “fleas” can far surpass mere flea-like behaviour.
In this case, the “fleas” are trained and graced not merely to entertain small minded spectators in the Flea Circus Maximus – despite the proliferation of advertisements claiming such things – but to share the very life and freedom of the Master Himself.
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