Eucharist on the tongue

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KatholikosMercy said:
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Walking_Home:
Are you ignoring Rome—whose authority supercedes the bishops and can at anytime clarify the GIRM.

Rome has done no such thing
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. So the norm is standing and on the tongue.

I am in agreement that kneeling and on the tongue may appear more reverant to some people but it is NOT the norm as your insisting it is.

Standing is the norm and I would hazard a guess that it will remain that way from now on. I would also hazard a guess that on the hand will eventually become the norm.

Pax and Gods speed.​

You say Rome hasn’t— The Congregation de Cultu Divino et Disciplina Sacramentorum–says different. The following is clarification:

catholic.com/library/liturgy/kneeling_1.asp

Congregation de Cultu Divino et Disciplina Sacramentorum

Prot. n. 1322/02/L

Rome, 1 July 2002

Your Excellency,

The Congregation in fact is concerned at the number of similar complaints that it has received in recent months from various places, and considers any refusal of Holy Communion to a member of the faithful on the basis of his or her kneeling posture to be a grave violation of one of the most basic rights of the Christian faithful, namely that of being assisted by their Pastors by means of the Sacraments (Codex Iuris Canonici, canon 213). In view of the law that “sacred ministers may not deny the sacraments to those who opportunely ask for them, are properly disposed and are not prohibited by law from receiving them” (canon 843 ¶ 1), there should be no such refusal to any Catholic who presents himself for Holy Communion at Mass, except in cases presenting a danger of grave scandal to other believers arising out of the person’s unrepented public sin or obstinate heresy or schism, publicly professed or declared. Even where the Congregation has approved of legislation denoting standing as the posture for Holy Communion, in accordance with the adaptations permitted to the Conferences of Bishops by the Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani n. 160, paragraph 2, it has done so with the stipulation that communicants who choose to kneel are not to be denied Holy Communion on these grounds.

Given the importance of this matter, the Congregation would request that Your Excellency inquire specifically whether this priest in fact has a regular practice of refusing Holy Communion to any member of the faithful in the circumstances described above and - if the complaint is verified - that you also firmly instruct him and any other priests who may have had such a practice to refrain from acting thus in the future. Priests should understand that the Congregation will regard future complaints of this nature with great seriousness, and if they are verified, it intends to seek disciplinary action consonant with the gravity of the pastoral abuse.
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Walking_Home said:
You say Rome hasn’t— The Congregation de Cultu Divino et Disciplina Sacramentorum–says different. The following is clarification:

Even where the Congregation has approved of legislation denoting standing as the posture for Holy Communion, in accordance with the adaptations permitted to the Conferences of Bishops by the Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani n. 160, paragraph 2, it has done so with the stipulation that communicants who choose to kneel are not to be denied Holy Communion on these grounds.

Given the importance of this matter, the Congregation would request that Your Excellency inquire specifically whether this priest in fact has a regular practice of refusing Holy Communion to any member of the faithful in the circumstances described above and - if the complaint is verified - that you also firmly instruct him and any other priests who may have had such a practice to refrain from acting thus in the future. Priests should understand that the Congregation will regard future complaints of this nature with great seriousness, and if they are verified, it intends to seek disciplinary action consonant with the gravity of the pastoral abuse.
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Thats not contrary to the GIRM which in the same paragraph your disputing says no one is allowed to refuse communion to anyone for kneeling.

This is the exact same document that says Standing is the Norm and that you have the right to recieve on the hand instead of the tongue if you so choose.

I can only speculate why anyone would refuse communion for kneeling save for ignorance of what the GIRM says.

Maybe the priest feels he is being diefied.
 
KatholikosMercy said:
Thats not contrary to the GIRM which in the same paragraph your disputing says no one is allowed to refuse communion to anyone for kneeling.

This is the exact same document that says Standing is the Norm and that you have the right to recieve on the hand instead of the tongue if you so choose.

I can only speculate why anyone would refuse communion for kneeling save for ignorance of what the GIRM says.

Maybe the priest feels he is being diefied.
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Why do you suppose the GIRM says that someone who kneels is not to be refused communion. Hint—because the universal norm of kneeling is still in force–just as the universal norm of communion on the tongue is still in force. The indults for did not do away with the universal norms.
 
Walking_Home said:
Why do you suppose the GIRM says that someone who kneels is not to be refused communion. Hint—because the universal norm of kneeling is still in force–just as the universal norm of communion on the tongue is still in force. The indults for did not do away with the universal norms.
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Then please explain to me why it plainly says the Norm is Standing?
 
KatholikosMercy said:
I will admit that opinion may not have been completely thought out however we are all members of the one body in Christ so that idea comes from the Bible itself. I can site the verses if you like where Paul says not to divide ourselves over trivial things and to be like minded if you would like.
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No, thank you. It is a pretty basic understanding that our Church is not “governed” by it’s members. It is not a “majority rules” organization.
 
KatholikosMercy said:
Then please explain to me why it plainly says the Norm is Standing?
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Standing is an indult norm–an exception to the universal norm. The bishops can say standing is the norm for the U.S–but this does not over-ride the Church’s universal norms. The Church has not imposed standing for ALL the people—She clarified this with the statement from the Congregation. The GIRM says the norm is standing—but the bishops are not authorized to and cannot impose standing on the people. That is the reason a priest who imposes standing—is liable to disciplinary action.
 
“KatholikosMercy” has made it pretty clear he thinks the Church is a “majority rules” organization. False.

Next, what exactly is he arguing? That reception on the tongue ISN’T the norm? Sorry, false. It is. Reception in the hand is by indult only, under certain conditions. Also, Paul VI stated reception on the tongue is more conducive to faith and reverence. The Church has never superseded his words in Memoriale Dominum, 1969.

Now as for standing…which he has insisted on inserting into this thread to hijack it (when he was losing on the tongue/hand issue).

The norm is indeed kneeling, universally. Local bishops’ conferences are allowed to mandate another posture for their area. First off, TECHNICALLY such a mandate would only go into effect when the new Missale Romanum, with its GIRM, goes into effect. That hasn’t happened yet…most Americans use a 1985 Sacramentary, which is a translation of a 1975 Latin edition.

The US Bishops voted for standing. Famously, some bishops decided this was the issue du jour. I know one bishop who told me over coffee that if anyone in his diocese was harassed for standing during the Consecration, he’d make sure the last parishes with Communion rails were forced to remove them. Some ugly incidents ensued of Communion being refused.

Rome intervened. First off, certain parishes that had never instituted standing were protected (I know three of them, in two diocese, personally). Second, Rome made clear that kneeling was a “venerable custom” (consuetudo venerabilis) and remained a legitimate option.

In other words, you can have your own country norm option…but it can’t be to the exclusion of the universal norm,

Ditto Communion in the hand vs. tongue.
 
KatholikosMercy said:
I am in agreement that kneeling and on the tongue may appear more reverant to some people but it is NOT the norm as your insisting it is.
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“Appearances” has nothing to do with it, except for how it appears to God.
Standing is the norm and I would hazard a guess that it will remain that way from now on. I would also hazard a guess that on the hand will eventually become the norm.
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I would hazard a guess that there will be a great schism in the Church, and this issue will be at the heart of the matter.
 
Pope Paul VI said reception on the tongue is more conducive to reverence AND faith. Big words.

He also granted the indult on the condition there was no danger of irreverence.

According to Paul, it’s not an equal case. Reception on the tongue is more conducive to faith and reverence in/for the Holy Eucharist.

Reception in the hand is permitted in some locales, within the parameters of the indult.

Oh yeah, and the majority doesn’t “rule”.
 
laudamus_te said:
“Appearances” has nothing to do with it, except for how it appears to God.
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Thats undeniable. If your so moved you can kneel if you like. Its done every day and more of us should love the Lord so deeply.
I would hazard a guess that there will be a great schism in the Church, and this issue will be at the heart of the matter.
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As long as there is a choice in the matter by the communicant which I feel there always will be I must disagree with that guess.

Thats not to say there will be some who so want to control those who they deem irreverant may struggle in anxiety wishing others would follow their example of piety.
 
Since you like numbers and majorities, “KatholikosMercy”, I’d hazard a private opinion that far more people in the USA since 1977 have been denied the chance to receive on the tongue than in their hands.

In any case, Paul VI said receiving on the tongue is more conducive to reverence and faith. AND it’s the norm…everywhere. By indult, one may receive in the hands, if there is no danger of irreverence.
 
Walking_Home said:
Standing is an indult norm–an exception to the universal norm. The bishops can say standing is the norm for the U.S–but this does not over-ride the Church’s universal norms. The Church has not imposed standing for ALL the people—She clarified this with the statement from the Congregation. The GIRM says the norm is standing—but the bishops are not authorized to and cannot impose standing on the people. That is the reason a priest who imposes standing—is liable to disciplinary action.
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I see. So where can I read the universal norms, in the canons?

Is there anywhere you are aware of in the world of where Standing to recieve communion in the Hand is NOT allowed?
 
KatholikosMercy said:
And Mother Teresa said communion in the hand was a tragedy. So why has the church allowed the indult and disposed of the patents?

If they superceded the indult norms then why is the indult much more common in practice and the indult allowed in the first place?

The fact is that communion on the hand is the most common way of reception by the faithful even in Rome. Do you know why that is?

If people were hoodwinked as you say then why doesn’t the Magisterium of the church step in and correct it?
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You really should think long and hard about some of these questions, and do some investigation on your own preferably with an open mind. But then the answers might displease you.
 
AlexV said:
Since you like numbers and majorities, “KatholikosMercy”, I’d hazard a private opinion that far more people in the USA since 1977 have been denied the chance to receive on the tongue than in their hands.
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That wouldn’t suprise me a bit.
In any case, Paul VI said receiving on the tongue is more conducive to reverence and faith. AND it’s the norm…everywhere. By indult, one may receive in the hands, if there is no danger of irreverence.
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And I agree with him.

Why do you think the choice is even allowed then?

I would love to see patents back and everyone recieving on the tongue by only Priests.

I would miss communion under both species though.
 
Yeah, actually in the Principality of Liechtenstein, and in the Principality of Monaco, while Communion in the hand is allowed by indult, standing is not. All the churches in both countries have altar rails, and they use them. Both also have Tridentine indults, every day of the week.

The bishops of several African dioceses have banned Communion in the hand. Some west African dioceses are very, very traditional.
 
KatholikosMercy said:
I see. So where can I read the universal norms, in the canons?

Is there anywhere you are aware of in the world of where Standing to recieve communion in the Hand is NOT allowed?
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Communion in the hand used to not be permitted in Poland and in the Vatican - in recent years it’s been permitted in those places (so much for it being such an inferior option - pray tell WHY would someone who thinks so extend the indult?).

I’m unaware of anywhere else where it is prohibited, although I’m sure we’ll be told if there is anywhere.
 
laudamus_te said:
You really should think long and hard about some of these questions, and do some investigation on your own preferably with an open mind. But then the answers might displease you.
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Been thinking about them for a decade my friend.

No definite good answers yet.
 
KatholikosMercy said:
I see. So where can I read the universal norms, in the canons?

Is there anywhere you are aware of in the world of where Standing to recieve communion in the Hand is NOT allowed?
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Take out the indults for communion in the hand and standing—what do you have—the universal norms–tongue and kneeling.

I don’t know how many countries use indults—but in whatever country indults are used—they are still exceptions to the universal norms.
 
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