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CHESTERTONRULES
Guest
Grace is granted to all sinners. Some cooperate with God’s grace, some don’t.
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2nd_Adam
Guest
I agree God grants grace to all of humanity… which we can call common grace. The rain falls on the righteous and unrighteous alike. But do you agree that the Scriptures reveal that God grants repentance to some which is needed for eternal life?
Matthew 5:45
For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.
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Contarini
Guest
If you mean that all sin is equal, I would challenge you again to support this position rather than simply saying that that’s what you think. Why do you think it? Is it based in Scripture? In the Reformed theological tradition (which itself claims support in Scripture, so we can’t avoid discussing Scripture at some point!)? In some kind of rational deduction from Scripture and/or tradition?
It does not follow from this that all sins are equal.
I am dubious of the concept of “imputation.” But that really isn’t the issue here, since we are speaking of *actual *sin. Or are you saying that since original sin is sin in the strictest sense, therefore what we actually do doesn’t matter?
Again, you are drawing (ironically for a Protestant) on theological tradition here, resting on Augustine’s misreading of Romans 5:12. Romans 5:12, properly translated, does not say that all sinned in Adam. Where else does Scripture teach this idea? Shouldn’t a Reformed Protestant be willing to question this part of the Augustinian theological tradition once it is clear that it rests to some extent on a mistranslation of Scripture? (Someone with a more Catholic theological approach, like myself, may care less about this, because I might conclude that the Holy Spirit guides the Church even through people’s exegetical mistakes. If Augustine’s interpretation were the universal teaching of the Church East and West, I would take that approach here. But it isn’t.)
I believe that Adam’s sin affected all of us, and not just by imitation as Pelagianism teaches. And there is certainly some sense in which Adam acted as our representative and in which we were all summed up in him (as we are all summed up in Christ’s redemption), and so his sin is ours. But I am dubious about the idea that it is imputed to us.
Deliberate betrayal, planned beforehand, is certainly worse than panicked denial when in imminent danger of one’s life. To say otherwise is monstrous. This is apart from the fact that Peter repented and Judas did not.
Which clearly is not a literal statement!
Edwin
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CHESTERTONRULES
Guest
Some are granted unique graces, but that is the exception on the road to heaven, not the rule.
Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be driven out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.
John 12:31-32
For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.
1Cor. 15:21-22
Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all. Rom. 5:18
For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.
Rom 11:32
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2nd_Adam
Guest
Well, that’s just not fair!
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PJM
Guest
That is a common rumor started about 1,000 years ago when the Greek Orthodox chose to be separated from the Roman Church.
What is odd about it is that they were in Full Communion with Rome [theoretically at least] for the first Thousand years. So how the heck can they be the original Church? They claim it from direct Apostolic Succession.
But The Bible denies this in Mt. 16:15-19, Mt. 18:18 and in numerous reference to "THE {SINGULAR} Church, and to the Authority of The Church. Read John 17:13-17 for example.
The Bible in its current form was completely written by the year 100 AD. The Canon was set [and the Greeks agreed to it] around the year 400 AD.
Either the entire Bible is True and Inspired or NONE of it is?
The Orthodox, God bless them, have the same basic problem as do you Protestants. Truth is simply not on there side, nor is history!
In order to “bump off” the Catholic Church others must discredit it. Unfortunately that oven leads highly focused, agenda driven folks to do some very dump things.
By the way Adam. You’re to be congratulated for being such an effective agitator
Love and prayers,
Pat
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MrS
Guest
Funny thing about authority… from the fall, to the heresies, to the Schism, to the reformers, and even to many “Catholic” who justify support of those with evil agendas… many think they can be their own authority on a whim.The Orthodox, God bless them, have the same basic problem as do you Protestants. Truth is simply not on there side, nor is history!
In order to “bump off” the Catholic Church others must discredit it. Unfortunately that oven leads highly focused, agenda driven folks to do some very dump things.
By the way Adam. You’re to be congratulated for being such an effective agitator
Love and prayers,
Pat
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CHESTERTONRULES
Guest
It is fair from the perspective of a Molinist.
God grants each of us sufficient grace based not only on his knowledge of our choices, but also based on his knowledge of what we would have chosen had the circumstances been different.
Check it out if you are not familiar with it:
theopedia.com/Molinism
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2nd_Adam
Guest
Thanks for the link. Here is a summary from your link. Molinism is similar to Arminianism which is in opposition to Calvinism.
“Biblically speaking, Molinists are more in line with the Arminian view. God chooses who will be saved because He knows who would choose Him. However, Molinists are more philosophically sophisticated than the typical Arminian. For example, William Lane Craig avoids the criticism that God’s decisions are dependent on man’s decisions by holding that God’s middle knowledge is not derived from His knowledge of the world. Rather, God’s middle knowledge is based on His existing natural knowledge. In this way he hopes to uphold God’s perfect omniscience. So, today’s evangelical Molinists are basically philosophically sophisticated Arminians.”[4]
I think a better response to “Is it Fair” is according to the Apostle Paul:
As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, [2] but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? - Rom 9
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CHESTERTONRULES
Guest
[double post]
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CHESTERTONRULES
Guest
This passage is related to our lot in life as well as God’s relationship to the Jews. It is not about the eternal salvation of an individual.
In fact, we read in Genesis that Esau become very wealthy and appears to have become a man of God who forgave the brother that cheated him and welcomed him to his home with open arms.
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Carlan
Guest
Adam, I don’t get you, what do you mean? (We are all commanded to repent and believe in the Lord the Jesus as a pattern.)
May I ask you to read John 20,21-23
I believe that God grants pardon to all sinners who repent. I know that you know that. What are you saying?
Carlan
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Contarini
Guest
That’s true of contemporary evangelical Molinists. They are using Catholic Molinism to support Arminian theology.
However, Molina himself and some other early Molinists did not, as far as I know, believe that predestination was based on middle knowledge, but that middle knowledge was how God so ordered things that the elect would be saved without violating their free will. In other words, God put some people in situations in which He knew that they would choose to repent, believe, and persevere and hence die in a state of grace and be saved. God allowed others to die when in a state of mortal sin. Nothing in the basic Molinist position requires one to believe that God puts everyone in the best situation possible–that God never allows someone to die in mortal sin if He knows that they would have repented and believed had they had more chance to do so, or that God gives everyone a roughly equal chance. That’s one way to interpret Molinism. I believe it’s the way most modern Molinists, Catholic or Protestant, do interpret it. But it’s not a necessary part of the Molinist position, so a simple equation of Molinism and Arminianism is a mistake.
Edwin
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CHESTERTONRULES
Guest
I’ll have to do some more reading. I definitely fit into the modern Molinist camp if your description is accurate!
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2nd_Adam
Guest
Start with the end of Romans 2 and who is the true Jew. Then read Romans chapters 9, 10, and 11. Remember, Paul said that there is no jew or gentile distinction for those in Christ.
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2nd_Adam
Guest
I always knew Arminian Protestantism is closer to the Catholic Faith than the Reformed understanding.
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2nd_Adam
Guest
John 20:21-23 correct?Adam, I don’t get you, what do you mean? (We are all commanded to repent and believe in the Lord the Jesus as a pattern.)
May I ask you to read John 20,21-23
I believe that God grants pardon to all sinners who repent. I know that you know that. What are you saying?
Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you.” 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld.”
I am saying that faith and repentance are gifts from God, granted to certain sinners.
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CHESTERTONRULES
Guest
There is a range of acceptable beliefs within Catholicism, so it depends on the individual.
The Church has deemed this debate permissible within certain bounds.
We are not permitted to teach that God predestined anyone to hell nor are we permitted to deny God’s sovereignty, as in Open Theism.
This debate is not relevant to our walk with Christ or our responsibilities as Christians.
It is just an intellectual exercise for which the ultimate answer is beyond human comprehension.
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CHESTERTONRULES
Guest
It is summed up here:
Romans 11
22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
And now we must take action:
Romans 12
1Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual act of worship. 2Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.
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