Eucharist - Please help me understand

[Carlan]

I agree God grants grace to all of humanity… which we can call common grace. The rain falls on the righteous and unrighteous alike. But do you agree that the Scriptures reveal that God grants repentance to some which is needed for eternal life?

Matthew 5:45
For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

Adam , Jesus redeemed all humanity, however, all of humanity did not accept him. Those who do accept him are saved by Gods grace through faith working in love.
Yes so God grants his grace to those who believe, only those who believe in the saving cross of Jesus Christ.

I think we are not understanding each others way of explaining.:shrug:Carlan

 

[2nd_Adam]

Adam , Jesus redeemed all humanity, however, all of humanity did not accept him. Those who do accept him are saved by Gods grace through faith working in love.
Yes so God grants his grace to those who believe, only those who believe in the saving cross of Jesus Christ.

I think we are not understanding each others way of explaining.:shrug:Carlan

I believe Jesus actually redeemed certain sinners. His work actually rescues sinners from their condemned condition. It is much greater work than giving all mankind an opportunity to be saved. He actually accomplished redemption for certain sinners. Notice that even repentance is granted by God to some unique group of sinners.

When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.” - Acts 11:18

And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will. 2 Tim

Which gentile sinners did God grant repentance and saving faith which leads to eternal life?

And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed. - Acts 13:48

 

[Carlan]

I believe Jesus actually redeemed certain sinners. His work actually rescues sinners from their condemned condition. It is much greater work than giving all mankind an opportunity to be saved. He actually accomplished redemption for certain sinners. Notice that even repentance is granted by God to some unique group of sinners.

When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.” - Acts 11:18

And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will. 2 Tim

Which gentile sinners did God grant repentance and saving faith which leads to eternal life?

And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed. - Acts 13:48

Gosh Adam, you are driving me around the bend , I'm no intellect, sorry, but I just think you don't get it. for heavens sake stop quoting scripture at random.:rolleyes: Carlan

 

[PJM]

=Carlan;5712437]Adam, I don’t get you, what do you mean? (We are all commanded to repent and believe in the Lord the Jesus as a pattern.)
May I ask you to read John 20,21-23
I believe that God grants pardon to all sinners who repent. I know that you know that. What are you saying? Carlan

That friend is a kind thought. It might even be true?

The difference is that Catholics don’t have to guess. Because we accept the entire Bible, and do as Christ Himself commands, we know with absolute certainty that our sins have been forgiven.

Protestants on the other hand can only HOPE that they have been forgiven, especially in light of not adhereing to what Jesus Himself Ordained.

Please read Four short passages and you’ll understand my point.

1 John 1:8-10
1 John 5:16-18
John 20:22-23
Matt. 16:19

There are some VERY good reasons to an informed practicing Catholic:thumbsup:

Love and prayers,

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

All of the Orthodox Christians that I discussed with, as well as diffferent websites… taught that the Orthodox Church is the One True Church and not the Catholic Church. They also have a different version of Apostolic Succession.

oca.org/QA.asp?ID=26&SID=3

Gabriel of 12;

What we are discussing on this forum is the Eucharist. Both East and West Catholic Church have maintained this Apostolic Faith since Jesus Christ instituted the Eucharist at the last supper, this predates Pentecost. Their is no such division here in the True presence both have a valid Eucharist.

Where you error is in saying “all” the Eastern Catholic Church’s are separated from the Western Catholic Church this is not true. Only Some or a few Eastern Orthodox communities are in schism (not separated from the body of Jesus Christ) with the Pope (Peter’s Chair) of whom Jesus himself gave the keys (authority) singular (please see Mt.16:17-19). This is a seperate argument that does not justify our topic of the unity in the Eucharist between the East and the West.

The Eastern Orthodox does not error in saying they are the True Church, and so they are; because these many Eastern Catholic Rites were succeeded from the orginal apostles.

The Western Catholic Church does not error when she states this; including the Jewish religious community and secular governments pass and present officially declares that Jesus built his Church upon Peter which is today found in the Pope of the Roman Catholic Church. Scripture supports One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church Jesus founded upon the apostles which includes both the Eastern (Orthodox) and Western Catholic Church.

Where you are introducing a division deals with authority not the True Presence. Jesus solves this question of authority in Peter from scripture and the Early Church Fathers who recognized Peter and his successors in the Pope.

It is not till another thousand years go by that pride of men come on the scene because The Eastern Church maintained an Emperor from the East, and the West ordained a Western King to rule the West. Now begins the schism between two brothers from the same Mother. There is much more to this schism that remains on a very thin line close to disappearing as time goes by. Our blessed Mother gave both brothers a time out, until cooler heads can prevail, which will come.

Your ignorance of the inhouse schism of the Catholic Church between few Orthodox communities “not all Orthodox Catholic Communites” and the Western Catholic Church who are of one body, one baptism, one faith, One Lord in Jesus Christ. Reveals your misunderstanding of the Church Jesus built upon Peter and the Apostles which is the body of Jesus Christ revealed from scripture. Which is both the Eastern and Western Catholic Church united in the body of Jesus Christ.

Maybe you should ask your Orthodox contacts if they consider themselves to be Catholic? Because as you commented here, you imply that Orthodox is not Catholic. I can assure you Orthodox is Catholic.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Gabriel of 12;

What we are discussing on this forum is the Eucharist. Both East and West Catholic Church have maintained this Apostolic Faith since Jesus Christ instituted the Eucharist at the last supper, this predates Pentecost. Their is no such division here in the True presence both have a valid Eucharist.

Where you error is in saying “all” the Eastern Catholic Church’s are separated from the Western Catholic Church this is not true. Only Some or a few Eastern Orthodox communities are in schism (not separated from the body of Jesus Christ) with the Pope (Peter’s Chair) of whom Jesus himself gave the keys (authority) singular (please see Mt.16:17-19). This is a seperate argument that does not justify our topic of the unity in the Eucharist between the East and the West.

The Eastern Orthodox does not error in saying they are the True Church, and so they are; because these many Eastern Catholic Rites were succeeded from the orginal apostles.

The Western Catholic Church does not error when she states this; including the Jewish religious community and secular governments pass and present officially declares that Jesus built his Church upon Peter which is today found in the Pope of the Roman Catholic Church. Scripture supports One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church Jesus founded upon the apostles which includes both the Eastern (Orthodox) and Western Catholic Church.

Where you are introducing a division deals with authority not the True Presence. Jesus solves this question of authority in Peter from scripture and the Early Church Fathers who recognized Peter and his successors in the Pope.

It is not till another thousand years go by that pride of men come on the scene because The Eastern Church maintained an Emperor from the East, and the West ordained a Western King to rule the West. Now begins the schism between two brothers from the same Mother. There is much more to this schism that remains on a very thin line close to disappearing as time goes by. Our blessed Mother gave both brothers a time out, until cooler heads can prevail, which will come.

Your ignorance of the inhouse schism of the Catholic Church between few Orthodox communities “not all Orthodox Catholic Communites” and the Western Catholic Church who are of one body, one baptism, one faith, One Lord in Jesus Christ. Reveals your misunderstanding of the Church Jesus built upon Peter and the Apostles which is the body of Jesus Christ revealed from scripture. Which is both the Eastern and Western Catholic Church united in the body of Jesus Christ.

Maybe you should ask your Orthodox contacts if they consider themselves to be Catholic? Because as you commented here, you imply that Orthodox is not Catholic. I can assure you Orthodox is Catholic.

As a Protestant, I consider myself to be catholic and embrace the Apostle’s Creed.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Gosh Adam, you are driving me around the bend , I’m no intellect, sorry, but I just think you don’t get it. for heavens sake stop quoting scripture at random. Carlan

I’ll give you the answer to my question. Which Gentile sinners were granted saving fatih and repentance? The answer - those sinners that were appointed to eternal life were granted repentance and faith. Both repentance and faith are necessary for salvation, which God provides to those He predestined.

Which gentile sinners did God grant repentance and saving faith which leads to eternal life?

And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed. - Acts 13:48

 

[2nd_Adam]

That friend is a kind thought. It might even be true?

The difference is that Catholics don’t have to guess. Because we accept the entire Bible, and do as Christ Himself commands, we know with absolute certainty that our sins have been forgiven.

Protestants on the other hand can only HOPE that they have been forgiven, especially in light of not adhereing to what Jesus Himself Ordained.

Please read Four short passages and you’ll understand my point.

1 John 1:8-10
1 John 5:16-18
John 20:22-23
Matt. 16:19

There are some VERY good reasons to an informed practicing Catholic:thumbsup:

Love and prayers,

I like that, you have more assurance for salvation than Protestants. But, how much assurance of your salvation is compatible with the Catholic Catechism, and the Council of Trent?

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

As a Protestant, I consider myself to be catholic and embrace the Apostle’s Creed.

Gabriel of 12;

The orginal Protestants were Catholics this is True. If you have splintered from your original founders with a valid Christian baptism you remain under the umbrella of the Catholic Church. Now the Eastern Orthodox “all of them” do not recognize your catholicity as a protestant because you seperated from the Roman (Western) Catholic church not the Eastern side.

You bring a very technical subject matter when dealing with the Apostles Creed. One do you profess this creed publicly in Liturgy before God? or do you just believe by an embracing only? Do you profess or believe in the Nicene Creed which is similar to the Apostles Creed?

Have you ever heard of the Didache document?

 

[Carlan]

I like that, you have more assurance for salvation than Protestants. But, how much assurance of your salvation is compatible with the Catholic Catechism, and the Council of Trent?

I do believe this old girl is beginning to get your drift

Mt 24;13 tells us that we “must endure to the end” in order to be saved. St Paul says the same thing in 2 Tim2;12…that we must hold out to the end if we want to reign with Christ. In Rom11:22,Christians are warned that they will be cut off if they don’t persevere in the kindness of God. Hebrews 6:4-6 describes people who are sharers in the Holy Spirit(born again Christians) but then fall away from God.

 Remember St Pauls advice:"work out your own salvation with fear and trembling (phil2:12.  Who should have more assurance of salvation than St Paul?  Yet he says: "I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified"(1cor9:27.Scripture is very clear- Christians can lose  their salvation.

The catholic church teaches we must die in sanctifying grace in order to be saved. Any mortal sin leads to a loss of sanctifying grace and the risk of eternal damnation if we should die in this state.

Adam.we have ended up pretty far off from your original request for help in understanding our belief in the Holy Eucharist, sooo I will say good night to you now and God bless you! Carlan,

 

[2nd_Adam]

Gabriel of 12;

The orginal Protestants were Catholics this is True. If you have splintered from your original founders with a valid Christian baptism you remain under the umbrella of the Catholic Church. Now the Eastern Orthodox “all of them” do not recognize your catholicity as a protestant because you seperated from the Roman (Western) Catholic church not the Eastern side.

You bring a very technical subject matter when dealing with the Apostles Creed. One do you profess this creed publicly in Liturgy before God? or do you just believe by an embracing only? Do you profess or believe in the Nicene Creed which is similar to the Apostles Creed?

Have you ever heard of the Didache document?

I don’t attend a very creedal or confessional church. I do embrace the Nicene Creed along with the Apostles Creed. My understanding of catholic is simply meaning the universal church. It has nothing to do with a particular branch of Christianity. Here is a Reformed website. Click on the historical document section to see what creeds and confessions many Reformed Christians embrace. Please notice that there is a link to the early church fathers too.

reformed.org/documents/index.html

 

[StillWondering]

I like that, you have more assurance for salvation than Protestants. But, how much assurance of your salvation is compatible with the Catholic Catechism, and the Council of Trent?

I just came by when I saw the word “Eucharist” and read the first and last page so I missed a bit of the conversation =). This is my disclaimer if I am repeating something that is already talked about.

What I read from the post you quoted 2ndAdam is that Catholics are assured what they are studying, learning, practicing, and exploring is the Truth. In addition Catholics are assured that a proper confession with a priest’s absolution is a full and true forgiveness of sins. I do not think the world salvation is in the post. On that topic, we are assured that we are offered all the possibilities of protecting and nourishing our souls for salvation.

And as for the topic of the thread, oh yeah the Eucharist is important. It is Christ’s Body and Blood here in our fallen world offering us true life. It is the very center and core of the Catholic faith as far as I know. If I am at Church with my family and someone were to come in a charge the Eucharist and I have the capacity to understand his ill intention I pray that I have both the courage and strength to throw myself in this way to protect our Lord. He does not need my protection but I need to protect him because he is all I have. Without him there is nothing.

 

[po18guy]

In all of Christendom, there are various views of communion (Eucharist, Lord’s Supper). I believe the Orthodox and Catholic churches believe in the presence of the actual flesh and blood. I’m okay with Christians having their own understanding of communion according to their Christian conscience before God. But why do Catholics seem to be the most aggressive in defending their view? I would like to discuss this in a manner that pleases God. What’s so important about the Catholic view?

Once confected, the Eucharist becomes the source and summit of our faith - the Lord Jesus Christ present with us, even to the end of the age. And, as with Peter, we often defend Him poorly, but our hearts are in it.

And JonNC, in my experience, the denomination which seems most conciliar these days, most longing for unity, is the Lutherans. Clearly, Luther saw the Eucharist in the bible alone. Oh, that many others would do as well!

There is only “comfortable schism” on earth. It grieves Heaven.

 

[MrS]

Once confected, the Eucharist becomes the source and summit of our faith - the Lord Jesus Christ present with us, even to the end of the age. And, as with Peter, we often defend Him poorly, but our hearts are in it.

And JonNC, in my experience, the denomination which seems most conciliar these days, most longing for unity, is the Lutherans. Clearly, Luther saw the Eucharist in the bible alone. Oh, that many others would do as well!

There is only “comfortable schism” on earth. It grieves Heaven.

I tend to agree. And I have (one of seven) a wonderful daughter in law who is Lutheran. But she tells me she is really “Catholic Lite”.

.

 

[2nd_Adam]

I tend to agree. And I have (one of seven) a wonderful daughter in law who is Lutheran. But she tells me she is really “Catholic Lite”.

.

Thanks for lightening up this serious subject. I heard of Christianity lite, but I never heard of Catholic lite. LOL in a very good and respectful way!

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Thanks for lightening up this serious subject. I heard of Christianity lite, but I never heard of Catholic lite. LOL in a very good and respectful way!

Adam,

I think you might have missed this post. It was in response to you recommendations regarding Paul’s letter to the Romans.

You suggested reading Romans up to chapter 11, more or less.

I think it comes to fruition here:

Romans 11
22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

And now we must take action:

Romans 12
1Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual act of worship. 2Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

---

 

[2nd_Adam]

Adam,

I think you might have missed this post. It was in response to you recommendations regarding Paul’s letter to the Romans.

You suggested reading Romans up to chapter 11, more or less.

I think it comes to fruition here:

Romans 11
22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

And now we must take action:

Romans 12
1Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual act of worship. 2Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

---

Please help me understand what you are saying. Paul in his letters consistently writes doctrine, than he follows up with how we live. First is the indicative, then the imperative. Therefore, Romans 12 is the imperative, how we live and do, based on the doctrine. I think I understand what you mean by quoting Romans 11. But that needs to be understood in light of Romans 1 through 10. It is the same with Hebrews 6. The professing church is always a mix of sheep and goats. In what we do, does not make us a sheep. Rather, what we do is assurance of being a sheep, but God is the one who made the sheep.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Please help me understand what you are saying. Paul in his letters consistently writes doctrine, than he follows up with how we live. First is the indicative, then the imperative. Therefore, Romans 12 is the imperative, how we live and do, based on the doctrine. I think I understand what you mean by quoting Romans 11. But that needs to be understood in light of Romans 1 through 10. It is the same with Hebrews 6. The professing church is always a mix of sheep and goats. In what we do, does not make us a sheep. Rather, what we do is assurance of being a sheep, but God is the one who made the sheep.

Paul tells us that the Jews can return to God through Christ if they do not persist in disbelief. This is an act of will in response to grace, not grace alone.

This is doctrinal.

Paul tells us that only AFTER we have been transformed through giving up our bodies to Christ will we gain true understanding of God’s will. This is again a response to grace guided by will, not an act of grace alone.

Our free response is required, and because it is a free response, it is conditional and resistible.

Here’s a passage for you to consider given your belief that doctrine comes first in Paul’s writings:

Romans 2
6God “will give to each person according to what he has done.” 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.

 

[miguel]

We must defend the essential doctrines of the Christian Faith (Jude 3). However, the different views on communion does not make us less Christian than another Christian community with a different view. I don’t find it in Scripture to find a call to defend our particular view with such dogma.

Do this in memory of me.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Paul tells us that the Jews can return to God through Christ if they do not persist in disbelief. This is an act of will in response to grace, not grace alone.

This is doctrinal.

Paul tells us that only AFTER we have been transformed through giving up our bodies to Christ will we gain true understanding of God’s will. This is again a response to grace guided by will, not an act of grace alone.

Our free response is required, and because it is a free response, it is conditional and resistible.

Here’s a passage for you to consider given your belief that doctrine comes first in Paul’s writings:

Romans 2
6God “will give to each person according to what he has done.” 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.

I know the Catholic response of Romans 2. However, that portion of Romans 2 needs to be understood in context with Romans 1, 2, 3, and 4. I’m glad you said that the unbelieving Jews can be ingrafted again through Christ. However, in Christ there is no Jew or Gentile distinction. Through faith in Christ, they become Christians at that point.