Eucharist - Please help me understand

[CHESTERTONRULES]

I know the Catholic response of Romans 2. However, that portion of Romans 2 needs to be understood in context with Romans 1, 2, 3, and 4. I’m glad you said that the unbelieving Jews can be ingrafted again through Christ. However, in Christ there is no Jew or Gentile distinction. Through faith in Christ, they become Christians at that point.

So now you are changing your theory! How convenient.

The question is HOW can unbelieving Jews, or gentiles for that matter, be grafted in through Christ?

Equally important, how do we remain grafted in?

22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

How do we remain in the love of Jesus?

John 15
10If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father’s commands and remain in his love.

 

[2nd_Adam]

So now you are changing your theory! How convenient.

The question is HOW can unbelieving Jews, or gentiles for that matter, be grafted in through Christ?

Equally important, how do we remain grafted in?

22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

How do we remain in the love of Jesus?

John 15
10If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father’s commands and remain in his love.

Faith in Christ (the gospel)… consider what Paul writes to Christians:

Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me. For I am the least of the apostles, unworthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me. Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed. 1 Cor 15

And of course Hebrews 11

By Faith

Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. For by it the people of old received their commendation. By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible…

And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Faith in Christ (the gospel)… consider what Paul writes to Christians:

Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me. For I am the least of the apostles, unworthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me. Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed. 1 Cor 15

By which you are being saved…

I agree completely.

How do we continue this process of salvation?

Gal 6
7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.

Phil 3
10I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead. 12Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect,** but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus. **
15All of us who are mature should take such a view of things.

 

[2nd_Adam]

By which you are being saved…

I agree completely.

How do we continue this process of salvation?

Gal 6
7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.

Phil 3
10I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead. 12Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect,** but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus. **
15All of us who are mature should take such a view of things.

We both agree that salvation is a process. This is the process according to Paul.

Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. 27 And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because [6] the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, [7] for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

God’s Everlasting Love

31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be [8] against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? 33 Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. [9] 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? - rom 8

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

We both agree that salvation is a process. This is the process according to Paul.

Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. 27 And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because [6] the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, [7] for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

God’s Everlasting Love

31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be [8] against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? 33 Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. [9] 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? - rom 8

We can both agree on the faithfulness of God’s promises.

However, do you also agree that God will not stop us from rejecting his will and walking away?

Do you agree that we, as Christians, are responsible for our actions and that these actions can lead us further and further away from God into damnation unless we repent?

 

[2nd_Adam]

We can both agree on the faithfulness of God’s promises.

However, do you also agree that God will not stop us from rejecting his will and walking away?

Do you agree that we, as Christians, are responsible for our actions and that these actions can lead us further and further away from God into damnation unless we repent?

Maybe our differences lie in our understanding of the promises of God. I personally believe all Christians would apostate apart from the sustaining grace of God. Have you considered discipline as a means of grace?

Jesus, Founder and Perfecter of Our Faith

12:1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2 looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

Do Not Grow Weary

3 Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted. 4 In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. 5 And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons?

“My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord,
nor be weary when reproved by him.
6 For the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and chastises every son whom he receives.”

7 It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8 If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. 9 Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. 11 For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

12 Therefore lift your drooping hands and strengthen your weak knees, 13 and make straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be put out of joint but rather be healed. 14 Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. 15 See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God; that no “root of bitterness” springs up and causes trouble, and by it many become defiled; 16 that no one is sexually immoral or unholy like Esau, who sold his birthright for a single meal. 17 For you know that afterward, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no chance to repent, though he sought it with tears. - Hebrews 12

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Maybe our differences lie in our understanding of the promises of God. I personally believe all Christians would apostate apart from the sustaining grace of God. Have you considered discipline as a means of grace?

Jesus, Founder and Perfecter of Our Faith

12:1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2 looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

Do Not Grow Weary

3 Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted. 4 In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. 5 And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons?

“My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord,
nor be weary when reproved by him.
6 For the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and chastises every son whom he receives.”

7 It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8 If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. 9 Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. 11 For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

12 Therefore lift your drooping hands and strengthen your weak knees, 13 and make straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be put out of joint but rather be healed. 14 Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. 15 See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God; that no “root of bitterness” springs up and causes trouble, and by it many become defiled; 16 that no one is sexually immoral or unholy like Esau, who sold his birthright for a single meal. 17 For you know that afterward, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no chance to repent, though he sought it with tears. - Hebrews 12

This passage seems to confirm my point.

WE must endure.

Jesus is ready and willing to help us but if we reject his grace it is our fault, not his.

God withholds grace from no one. He wants all men to be saved.

Those who are not saved had sufficient grace, but they didn’t use it.

 

[miguel]

That is very accurate. For myself, I am more protective about the contents of the gospel than anything else (Gal 1). I believe if we partake in communion within the warning of the Apostle Paul, we are being obedient according to our conscience. All of the positions are valid. However, some churches who only see communion as an ordinance as compared to being a means of grace, some can partake in communion in a very , irreverent and flippant way.

It comes down to what is real and what is not real. The apostolic succession makes it real. When a real priest (a validly ordained priest) says the words of consecration during the Mass, the bread and wine become the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Jesus Christ. The priesthood is passed down from one generation to the next by the laying on of hands by the Bishop in the Sacrament of Holy Orders. If believers come together in a worship setting without a validly ordained priest, the bread and wine remain bread and wine. Roman Catholicism and Orthodoxy have preserved the apostolic succession. The reformation did not.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

I don’t attend a very creedal or confessional church. I do embrace the Nicene Creed along with the Apostles Creed. My understanding of catholic is simply meaning the universal church. It has nothing to do with a particular branch of Christianity. Here is a Reformed website. Click on the historical document section to see what creeds and confessions many Reformed Christians embrace. Please notice that there is a link to the early church fathers too.

reformed.org/documents/index.html

Gabriel of 12;

It never ceases to amaze me how non catholics are able to pick and chose what ever they want to believe when ever they want too. An authentic Protestant professes catholicity by sacraments, the creed and apostolic succession, including catholic church, but all of these titles become terms interpreted in a separated and different meaning than the True Catholic Apostolic Church. Thus multiple reformed creeds and confessions that cause division among Christians not unity, which is what the Nicene Creed has done since its inception to confirm all the believers from heretics.

You apparently interpret Catholic to its definition of Universal; But you fail to understand the meaning of “Church” which is attached to Catholic. Now to be in the Catholic Church which the bible defines as the body of Jesus Christ. One has to partake of the body of Jesus Christ flesh and blood in order to be in the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. Do you partake of the body, blood soul and divinity of Jesus Christ as he commands his Church to do so in “rememberance of me”? This is what makes up the Catholic (universal) Church which is the body of Jesus Christ on earth and Jesus is the head in heaven, always present to his people in the Eucharist.

Its one thing to say you are catholic but it is an all together another thing to llive out your Catholicity in the True presence of Jesus Christ.

 

[2nd_Adam]

This passage seems to confirm my point.

WE must endure.

Jesus is ready and willing to help us but if we reject his grace it is our fault, not his.

God withholds grace from no one. He wants all men to be saved.

Those who are not saved had sufficient grace, but they didn’t use it.

I don’t mean to create hostility, but I don’t have a better word for my understanding of the Catholic Faith. It sure seems that the Catholic Faith is quite semi-pelagius in theology… that salvation rest upon the cooperation of man to be saved. It seems ultimately that man is sovereign over God being sovereign in saving sinners. I think we forget to understand that God saves sinners for His own good pleasure, His own glory and His own name sake. He is determined to save a new people for Himself to the praise of His glorious grace.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

I don’t mean to create hostility, but I don’t have a better word for my understanding of the Catholic Faith. It sure seems that the Catholic Faith is quite semi-pelagius in theology… that salvation rest upon the cooperation of man to be saved. It seems ultimately that man is sovereign over God being sovereign in saving sinners. I think we forget to understand that God saves sinners for His own good pleasure, His own glory and His own name sake. He is determined to save a new people for Himself to the praise of His glorious grace.

Augustine put it quite well and succinctly when he said:

“Without God, we can’t. Without us, God won’t.”

Do you disagree with this?

Also, if you believe that Go determined to save a few people, then you must also believed that he determined to torture the majority eternally for following the nature which they were born with.

Is this what you believe?

 

[2nd_Adam]

It comes down to what is real and what is not real. The apostolic succession makes it real. When a real priest (a validly ordained priest) says the words of consecration during the Mass, the bread and wine become the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Jesus Christ. The priesthood is passed down from one generation to the next by the laying on of hands by the Bishop in the Sacrament of Holy Orders. If believers come together in a worship setting without a validly ordained priest, the bread and wine remain bread and wine. Roman Catholicism and Orthodoxy have preserved the apostolic succession. The reformation did not.

In all due respect, that is why you are a Catholic Christian, and I am not. The Eucharist seems to be a dividing line in the sand in certain ways. However, I believe God is bigger than our veiws of communion.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Gabriel of 12;

It never ceases to amaze me how non catholics are able to pick and chose what ever they want to believe when ever they want too. An authentic Protestant professes catholicity by sacraments, the creed and apostolic succession, including catholic church, but all of these titles become terms interpreted in a separated and different meaning than the True Catholic Apostolic Church. Thus multiple reformed creeds and confessions that cause division among Christians not unity, which is what the Nicene Creed has done since its inception to confirm all the believers from heretics.

You apparently interpret Catholic to its definition of Universal; But you fail to understand the meaning of “Church” which is attached to Catholic. Now to be in the Catholic Church which the bible defines as the body of Jesus Christ. One has to partake of the body of Jesus Christ flesh and blood in order to be in the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. Do you partake of the body, blood soul and divinity of Jesus Christ as he commands his Church to do so in “rememberance of me”? This is what makes up the Catholic (universal) Church which is the body of Jesus Christ on earth and Jesus is the head in heaven, always present to his people in the Eucharist.

Its one thing to say you are catholic but it is an all together another thing to llive out your Catholicity in the True presence of Jesus Christ.

Okay, there are over 1 billion Catholics in the world. How many of those Catholics believe that the elements change to the actual flesh and literal blood at the mass? Do you care to speculate on the percentages?

 

[2nd_Adam]

Augustine put it quite well and succinctly when he said:

“Without God, we can’t. Without us, God won’t.”

Do you disagree with this?

Also, if you believe that Go determined to save a few people, then you must also believed that he determined to torture the majority eternally for following the nature which they were born with.

Is this what you believe?

What you wrote needs to be answered by you too. We know God has the power and ability to save each single person that ever lived, correct? And we also know God knows beforehand who would believe to the end and will be saved. It is impossibe for God not to know. So, if God knew a certain percentage of sinners would not do enough to be saved, why would he make the requirment for salvation where the same percentage of people would perish? Free will makes no sense if God already knows the answer for each person that apparently has been given free will.

 

[po18guy]

In all due respect, that is why you are a Catholic Christian, and I am not. The Eucharist seems to be a dividing line in the sand in certain ways. However, I believe God is bigger than our veiws of communion.

However, please consider that this is exactly how Jesus founded His Church. He appointed the 12 and gave them powers and abilities that no human had ever had. It was not a common priesthood, but one which was ordained from on high. The Church was and remains authoritative, founded by God, but human in nature. It is not a Church of individualism, but one of unity. That requires a denial of self.

Recall also the command of Jesus to those who would follow Him (Matthew 16:24, Mark 8:34, Luke 9:23):

1. Deny ourselves. What does this mean to you?
2. Take up our cross daily. Again, what does this mean?
3. After doing both of the above, then, and only then, follow Him.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

What you wrote needs to be answered by you too. We know God has the power and ability to save each single person that ever lived, correct? And we also know God knows beforehand who would believe to the end and will be saved. It is impossibe for God not to know. So, if God knew a certain percentage of sinners would not do enough to be saved, why would he make the requirment for salvation where the same percentage of people would perish? Free will makes no sense if God already knows the answer for each person that apparently has been given free will.

There is a big difference between my view and your view.

My view maintains God as just and merciful. Your view does not.

God enables us to accept or reject his grace.

Jesus put it well here:

Luke 13
34"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often** I have longed** to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

 

[2nd_Adam]

There is a big difference between my view and your view.

My view maintains God as just and merciful. Your view does not.

God enables us to accept or reject his grace.

Jesus put it well here:

Luke 13
34"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often** I have longed** to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

Now think about this for a second. God knows beforehand how many sinners will be saved before the foundation of the world, correct? So, whatever requirment God requires to dwell with Him forever, will always leave a certain percentage out of his eternal presence. He knows which sinners will reject his grace and be lost. However, didn’t God allow certain sinners to be that way? I think my view glorifies God in all of His attributes. It considers all of Scirpture, exalting our great God and Savior! Do you agree that God does all things for His own glory? God is a God centered God. His will is supreme and right.

What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory. - Rom 9

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Now think about this for a second. God knows beforehand how many sinners will be saved before the foundation of the world, correct?

 

[miguel]

In all due respect, that is why you are a Catholic Christian, and I am not. The Eucharist seems to be a dividing line in the sand in certain ways. However, I believe God is bigger than our veiws of communion.

I know this comes across as blunt, but it is important to be clear. Does bigger mean that we can impose our will and change what he intended for his Church?

 

[2nd_Adam]

2nd Adam;5716581:

Yes, but he gives all men a choice.

You don’t accept this, it seems.

Eze 33
11 "Tell them, 'As sure as I am the living God, I take no pleasure from the death of the wicked. I want the wicked to change their ways and live. Turn your life around! Reverse your evil ways!

1 Tim 2
3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

I agree that God give us a choice; therefore, mankind is responsible for his choices. Those are excellent Scriptures that you posted! Let’s explore the Joshua passage in regards to choice next.