Eucharist - Please help me understand

  • Thread starter Thread starter 2nd_Adam
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
To: 2nd. Adam

My dear friend 2nd. Adam

As I ponder your past post on this thread it has suddenly become clear to me that the issue at hand is not a lack of understanding, rather it lies in a very deficient Faith. A lack of belief so severe that it leads to a confused mind.

Faith too weak to be able to understand that God is all Powerful, that God loves us with an incomprehensible Love. That God is Perfect Humility, and will go to unfathomable length’s to aid in the salvation of souls all stem from a lack of Faith not in God per sae, rather in Who and What God Truly are and must be.

I base this on what I call my Fourth Grade Comprehension test. Take a class of Fourth Graders, and read to them John 6: 52-68, Mt. 26: 26-28, Mk. 14: 22-24, Lk. 22: 19-21, and 1 Cor. 11: 23-28. And then simply ask them what they heard. Will they comprehend it? Maybe, maybe not, but they will tell you what was read.

It is an evident lack of faith in Gods Greatness, Gods Love for us and Gods desire that all men are saved.

Now this previous statement is big part of the problem. The Bible clearly tells that Salvation is not a done deal, and that lack of understanding, too comes from not really knowing anything [or at least very little] about The Divine Nature of God. This topic is seldom taught in the realm of Protestant Theology. Most preachers will speak of God’s Attributes, but I don’t ever recall hearing one speak of Gods Divine Nature.

The root of the issue seems to lie in the lack of comprehension that God must be, has to be, and therefore is a Just and Fair God. Predestination, OSAS is a failed Theology that over looks these facts. We are created by God, for the very precise purpose of PROVING our love for Him. [Isaiah 43: 7, 21 Heb.13:15 and Rom. 14:11]. That is the fully precise purpose for being “made in His image” [Gen. 1: 26-17] with some similar attributes [Gods are Perfect, ours are very imperfect] “namely a mind, intellect and freewill”, all of which are “Spiritual Things” like God Himself. To deny the right use of these God given attributes is a most serious error, and that is exactly what OSAS and Predestination do. They do not permit humanity to fulfill the precise reason we were created and they fail to comprehend that God, being God, must be “fair.”

And what is “Fair” about some persons being predestined before birth, to either heaven or hell. Or what’s “Fair” about OSAS, which too denies the purpose of God giving ONLY HUMANITY, a mind, intellect and freewill. Gifts this special and unique must have a specific reason.

Luke 10:16 “He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.”

Mark 3: 13 “And he went up on the mountain, and called to him those whom he desired; and they came to him. 14 And he appointed twelve, to be with him, and to be sent out to preach and have authority to cast out demons: Simon whom he surnamed Peter; James the son of Zebedee and John the brother of James, whom he surnamed Bo-anerges, that is, sons of thunder; Andrew, and Philip, and Bartholomew, and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus, and Simon the Cananaean, and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him.”

Titus 2: 15 “Declare these things; exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you. “

Eph. 2:19 “So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; [SINGULAR] in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.”

Mt. 28: 18 “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.”

Mt. 18: 15 "If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; [SINGULAR] and if he refuses to listen even to the church, [SINGULAR] let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Truly, I say to you, whatever you [SINGULAR] bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

1 Tim. 3:15 “if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, [singular] the pillar [singular] and bulwark of the truth. [singular] Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of our religion:”

Eph. 2:19 19 So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; [SINGULAR] in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit…
I have to respectfully disagree with what you posted. It appears you created God to be much different than how He reveals Himself in the Scriptures. God is the most God-centered being in existence. He does all things for His own glory. And whaterver pleases Him… God does. And whatever pleases Him is right, holy, perfect and worthy of praise. God does way more than just aid us in saving His elect children. I know that the Catholic Faith rejects being semi-pelagius. However, there has to be another word that describes many of the views of Catholics on this site, in regards to a similar semi-pelagius theology of God. God is sovereign in all things. And thru providence, all that He ordained in the eternity past, is coming to be. In all respect again, we sure don’t see the Supreme being in the same way. How big is your God?

For my name’s sake I defer my anger,
for the sake of my praise I restrain it for you,
that I may not cut you off.
Behold, I have refined you, but not as silver;
I have tried you in the furnace of affliction.
For my own sake, for my own sake, I do it,
for how should my name be profaned?
My glory I will not give to another. - The Bible

God is the most God-centered (self centered) being in the most excellent way! I will not rob God of His glory in my salvation, but praise Him alone. God is my rock and my salvation.

“The Lord lives, and blessed be my rock,
and exalted be my God, the rock of my salvation,

2 Samuel 22:47
 
The Western and Eastern (orthodox) Catholic Church are one in the body of Jesus Christ for these have Apostolic Succession from the Apostles themselves and the True Presence of the body, blood of Jesus Christ…

What you are misinformed about is that these two are not seperated in the body of Jesus Christ. Where uninformed Protestants makes the mistake of thinking these two are distinct Church’s they are not. True there are a few Orthodox Eastern Rites that in schism with the Pope’s authority, not with the body of Jesus Christ.

These Eastern Rites in schism is not the same as the Western Protestants who have severed their communion from the True presence and or the full communion of the Body of Jesus Christ. There is a difference between the Eastern schism of authority and the Western Protestant break from Holy Communion and succession from the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

What may surprise you is that there are Orthodox Eastern Catholic Rites that are in full communion with the Pope. So painting the Orthodox Eastern Catholic Church with a broad brush of being a seperate Church from the Western Catholic Church reveals your misinformed about the True Presence of Jesus Christ which unites all the brethern as one body never 2.

You want proof? ask any Eastern Orthodox if they believe in the True (Eucharist) Presence of Jesus Christ in the Mass? There is no division here, where faith matters.

Just for your information
The Orthodox Church claims to be the OneTrue Church, and is not in communion with the Magesterium, correct?
 
The Orthodox Church claims to be the OneTrue Church, and is not in communion with the Magesterium, correct?
Not Correct; The Eastern and Western Catholic Church are both one in the body of Jesus Christ. This is the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church Jesus built upon Peter and his apostles.

Few Eastern Orthodox Catholic Rites are in schism with the authority of the Pope not necessarily the Magesterium. To say Magesterium is to try and divide the Eastern Patriarchs between themselves, because all the Catholic Bishops both Eastern Orthodox and Western Catholic Church have apostolic succession to the Apostles that make up the magesterium.

So you appear to be causing a division in the body of Jesus Christ that does not exist who are united in the body, blood of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist. You see circumstances allow both east and west to partake of each others Eucharist, whereby neither East or Western Catholic Church cannot partake of any Protestant communion who have severed itself from this 2000 year old Holy Communion, and protestantism is divided on the true presence being True or symbolic, not to mention in either case not valid as a sacred sacrament.
 
God is the most God-centered (self centered) being in the most excellent way! I will not rob God of His glory in my salvation, but praise Him alone. God is my rock and my salvation.

“The Lord lives, and blessed be my rock,
and exalted be my God, the rock of my salvation,

2 Samuel 22:47
So when God revealed to Moses his name “IAM”. He misinformed Moses that he is the God that will be whatever Moses needs him to be and then some? So God did not reveal himself in a wooded bush burning? God did not reveal himself in the Shekinah Cloud? God did not reveal himself in the Rock in the desert? God did not reveal himself in the flesh? God did not reveal himself in the bread come down from heaven?🤷

Every Knee shall bow down before the name of Jesus in heaven, under the earth and on the earth. This scripture is lived out today in the Catholic Mass especially in the communion of the Saints who are in heaven and those Catholics under the earth awaiting the 2nd coming.

Tell me do you bow your knee in the presence of God in your Sunday Worship? As Catholics do?
 
, and protestantism is divided on the true presence being True or symbolic, not to mention in either case not valid as a sacred sacrament.
This is true and absolute. The discussion is difficult because so many of the non-Catholic faith communities* (they are actually not the Church, thus not churches)* have usurped what they wish of Catholic teaching. It is not valid, in spite of their persistent claims otherwise.

.
 
I think Judas sinned just like Peter.
What is your theological support for this claim? You haven’t given any reason for thinking this. Scripture never suggests that Peter and Judas were equal in the gravity of their sin.

Edwin
 
=ferdie;5704224]Ahhh…the gifts of the Holy Spirit, may God grant us the grace to receive them and practice them, specially in this forum.🙂
  1. wisdom
  2. knowledge
  3. understanding
  4. counsel
  5. fortitude
  6. piety and
  7. fear of the Lord
Amen:thumbsup: I say again, AMEN!😃
 
That brings us to another point. I only post these things so we can all look deeper into the grace that we now stand… to the praise of His glorious grace. In my understanding, all 12 disciples are equally unworthy to receive the eternal blessings of God. I think Judas sinned just like Peter. Even the OT saints had a wretched life of sin, but were forgiven. I think Peter could not even take credit for revealing that Jesus was the Christ since God the Father revealed that truth to him. Any thoughts?
Peter had not yet sinned, at the time of the Last Supper. Judas (by contrast) had already accepted money to betray Jesus; it was at the moment that he received the Body and Blood, that he straightaway went out to fulfill his end of the contract, and the Scriptures tell us that he was, at that moment, possessed by the Devil.
 
=2nd Adam-I have to respectfully disagree with what you posted. It appears you created God to be much different than how He reveals Himself in the Scriptures. God is the most God-centered being in existence. He does all things for His own glory. And whatever pleases Him… God does.*** And whatever pleases Him is right, holy, perfect and worthy of praise***. God does way more than just aid us in saving His elect children. I know that the Catholic Faith rejects being semi-pelagius. However, there has to be another word that describes many of the views of Catholics on this site, in regards to a similar semi-pelagius theology of God. God is sovereign in all things. And thru providence, all that He ordained in the eternity past is coming to be. In all respect again, we sure don’t see the Supreme Being in the same way. How big is your God?
For my name’s sake I defer my anger,
for the sake of my praise I restrain it for you,
that I may not cut you off.
Behold, I have refined you, but not as silver;
I have tried you in the furnace of affliction.
For my own sake, for my own sake, I do it,
for how should my name be profaned?
My glory I will not give to another. - The Bible
God is the most God-centered (self centered) being in the most excellent way! I will not rob God of His glory in my salvation, but praise Him alone. God is my rock and my salvation.
“The Lord lives, and blessed be my rock,
and exalted be my God, the rock of my salvation,
2 Samuel 22:47
So Adam, if we take your written words as “gospel” and logic affirms that every issue can only have a single truth; how can you [and those of like mind] deny that Christ Founded only one Church, that there should [according to Divine revelation and plan] be but One Bible, and that in following this bible we must either accept all of it or reject it completely.

The multiplicity of denominations, proliferation of bibles occurred only after the Catholic Church which springs from Peter and the Apostles some 2.000 years ago, experienced non-Catholic schisms, which of course means to “be separated from.” No logical person can deny the sole existence of only One Christian Church dating back to the Apostles themselves, and the FACT that the Bible came through the Catholic Church, and that this Bible was the ONLY Bible in existence for 1,200 years. Therefore what the bible speaks about “the Church,” The truth,and authority have to be to for and about Catholism. No other explaination is logical or supportable.

So factually and logically non-Catholics are separated from “The Way [SINGULAR], The Truth [SINGULAR] and The Life [Also SINGULAR]. [Thus all that is “right, holy and just”.]

Despite this truth, God who is a God of unlimited Power, Awe and Majesty, has done some, to be heralded work with the likes of the Graham’s and Doctor James Dobson for example that is quite amazing. These are truly men of God.

God who is and has to be “Just and Fair” as elements of His Divine Nature, will certainly read our hearts, and judge us on our deeds. [That is biblical too.]

To assume that OSAS is fact, or Predestination is fact is to deny the reality of the necessary Nature of God, and nullify the precise reasons that we ARE CREATED with a mind, intellect and freewill, precisely and almost exclusively that we may Know God, through this knowledge LOVE God, and through this Love SERVE God. That friend is a lack of Faith, much more than a simple lack of understanding. It is inconceivable that there can be one without the other. Understanding can only come through Faith:o

Love and prayers,
 
I see that spiritual truth is concealed (Jesus spoke in parables for intentional concealment) until God reveals truth to us (believers).
Parables were made to help people understand the lesson, not to conceal or obscure a message. Its like a story with a moral.
 
=youngsaint;5708194]Parables were made to help people understand the lesson, not to conceal or obscure a message. Its like a story with a moral.
Dear Adam2

might this clarify for you?

2nd. Cor. 9: 13 “Under the test of this service, you will glorify God by your obedience in acknowledging the gospel of Christ,”

Mt. 7: 21 "Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.”

2 Cor. 4: 2 “We have renounced disgraceful, underhanded ways; we refuse to practice cunning or to tamper with God’s word, but by the open statement of the truth we would commend ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God. 3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing.


Love and prayers friend,
 
Parables were made to help people understand the lesson, not to conceal or obscure a message. Its like a story with a moral.
And each of the parables was followed with further explanation and teaching.

Not so with John 6… Is means Is It was not a parable. It was a difficult teaching, and some walked away… then, and now.

.
 
Not Correct; The Eastern and Western Catholic Church are both one in the body of Jesus Christ. This is the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church Jesus built upon Peter and his apostles.

Few Eastern Orthodox Catholic Rites are in schism with the authority of the Pope not necessarily the Magesterium. To say Magesterium is to try and divide the Eastern Patriarchs between themselves, because all the Catholic Bishops both Eastern Orthodox and Western Catholic Church have apostolic succession to the Apostles that make up the magesterium.

So you appear to be causing a division in the body of Jesus Christ that does not exist who are united in the body, blood of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist. You see circumstances allow both east and west to partake of each others Eucharist, whereby neither East or Western Catholic Church cannot partake of any Protestant communion who have severed itself from this 2000 year old Holy Communion, and protestantism is divided on the true presence being True or symbolic, not to mention in either case not valid as a sacred sacrament.
All of the Orthodox Christians that I discussed with, as well as diffferent websites… taught that the Orthodox Church is the One True Church and not the Catholic Church. They also have a different version of Apostolic Succession.

oca.org/QA.asp?ID=26&SID=3
 
What is your theological support for this claim? You haven’t given any reason for thinking this. Scripture never suggests that Peter and Judas were equal in the gravity of their sin.

Edwin
I think sin is sin. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. I do believe in imputation of original sin to all humanity. We all sinned in Adam. Are you saying Judas was a worst sinner than Peter? I believe Paul already claimed the title of chief sinner of all mankind.
 
So when God revealed to Moses his name “IAM”. He misinformed Moses that he is the God that will be whatever Moses needs him to be and then some? So God did not reveal himself in a wooded bush burning? God did not reveal himself in the Shekinah Cloud? God did not reveal himself in the Rock in the desert? God did not reveal himself in the flesh? God did not reveal himself in the bread come down from heaven?🤷

Every Knee shall bow down before the name of Jesus in heaven, under the earth and on the earth. This scripture is lived out today in the Catholic Mass especially in the communion of the Saints who are in heaven and those Catholics under the earth awaiting the 2nd coming.

Tell me do you bow your knee in the presence of God in your Sunday Worship? As Catholics do?
Do you agree with this statement? Why or why not?

God is the most God-centered (self centered) being in the most excellent way!
 
I think sin is sin. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. I do believe in imputation of original sin to all humanity. We all sinned in Adam. Are you saying Judas was a worst sinner than Peter? I believe Paul already claimed the title of chief sinner of all mankind.
Adam,the difference between Judus and Peter and Paul is that they repented of their mortal sins, As we hope all Christians do when they fall. We kid ourselves when we say we are with out sin.:eek:Carlan
 
All of the Orthodox Christians that I discussed with, as well as diffferent websites… taught that the Orthodox Church is the One True Church and not the Catholic Church. They also have a different version of Apostolic Succession.

oca.org/QA.asp?ID=26&SID=3
Thus they, both east and west are in schism, not total separation.

When the East returns to recognizing the Chair of Peter, as they did for 1000 years, then the Schism will end.

Until then, each shares the name Catholic, each shares the same sacraments and Eucharist.

All others DO NOT.

.
 
Adam,the difference between Judus and Peter and Paul is that they repented of their mortal sins, As we hope all Christians do when they fall. We kid ourselves when we say we are with out sin.:eek:Carlan
We are all commanded to repent and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ as a pattern. Did you know that Bible reveals that repentance is granted by God to some sinners?
 
Thus they, both east and west are in schism, not total separation.

When the East returns to recognizing the Chair of Peter, as they did for 1000 years, then the Schism will end.

Until then, each shares the name Catholic, each shares the same sacraments and Eucharist.

All others DO NOT.

.
I’ll let the east and west churches fight over the true apostolic succession, and the claim of being the One True Church. I guess as a Protestant, this is not my fight.
 
I’ll let the east and west churches fight over the true apostolic succession, and the claim of being the One True Church. I guess as a Protestant, this is not my fight.
Catholics recognize the validity of Orthodox apostolic succession.

The dispute is related to the papacy, primarily, although this is not the only difference.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top