Europe's open-border policy may be nearing its end

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7_Sorrows said:
if the u.s. had not left ISIS might not be in Iraq today.
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It was George Bush who invaded Iraq and then it was George Bush who signed the agreement in December 2008 for all US troops to be completely out of Iraq by December 31, 2011. ISIS was formed while the US was in Iraq.
 
Tomdstone said:
It was George Bush who invaded Iraq and then it was George Bush who signed the agreement in December 2008 for all US troops to be completely out of Iraq by December 31, 2011. ISIS was formed while the US was in Iraq.
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ISIS was an outgrowth of Al Quaeda, though Al Quaeda itself was at times an alliance of a number of pre-existing groups, including Zarquawi’s terrorist group which had been active since well before 2003. During the Iraq war, Zarquawi, the asserted founder of ISIS, and his followers, were part of Al Quaeda in Iraq.

Throughout the Iraq War, Al Quaeda in Iraq was at war with Shiites, whom they deemed “slime” and “poisonous”. They were the ones responsible for so many of the suicide and IED bombings of Shiite marketplaces and mosques.

Al Qaeda and ISIS were essentially the same thing without real distinction, and the people who composed it were severely weakened by the American “surge” in Iraq. At around the same time, Zarqawi and his followers were criticized by Bin Laden for indiscriminately murdering Shiites. Sometime after 2005, the two terrorist organizations became essentially separate in leadership,

So, it can be said that the precursor of ISIS was anti-American, but it was at least as anti-Shiite. The viciousness of its leadership (merged and merged again before splitting from Al Quaeda) is independent from anything America did, except that America stood, for a time, in the way of its ambitions, which are to eradicate all “infidels” from the Arab Middle EAst. “Infidels” include the Shiite majority in Iraq, Kurds, Yazidis, Christians and Sunni Arabs not deemed sufficiently “pure” to them.

It’s all one movement, basically, and always has been, though there have been many organizations, and many leaders from well before 2003.
 
Tomdstone said:
It was George Bush who invaded Iraq and then it was George Bush who signed the agreement in December 2008 for all US troops to be completely out of Iraq by December 31, 2011. ISIS was formed while the US was in Iraq.
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As has been said many times, Bush signed an agreement with a termination date on it, as is true of most treaties. Iraq was willing to renegotiate it, but Obama wasn’t. You can blame Bush for some things, but not for abandoning Iraq to ISIS and Iran. Obama admitted he wasn’t interested in renegotiating the agreement. He just wanted out of Iraq and admitted it on national television.
 
Ridgerunner said:
ISIS was an outgrowth of Al Quaeda, though Al Quaeda itself was at times an alliance of a number of pre-existing groups, including Zarquawi’s terrorist group which had been active since well before 2003. During the Iraq war, Zarquawi, the asserted founder of ISIS, and his followers, were part of Al Quaeda in Iraq.

Throughout the Iraq War, Al Quaeda in Iraq was at war with Shiites, whom they deemed “slime” and “poisonous”. They were the ones responsible for so many of the suicide and IED bombings of Shiite marketplaces and mosques.

Al Qaeda and ISIS were essentially the same thing without real distinction, and the people who composed it were severely weakened by the American “surge” in Iraq. At around the same time, Zarqawi and his followers were criticized by Bin Laden for indiscriminately murdering Shiites. Sometime after 2005, the two terrorist organizations became essentially separate in leadership,

So, it can be said that the precursor of ISIS was anti-American, but it was at least as anti-Shiite. The viciousness of its leadership (merged and merged again before splitting from Al Quaeda) is independent from anything America did, except that America stood, for a time, in the way of its ambitions, which are to eradicate all “infidels” from the Arab Middle EAst. “Infidels” include the Shiite majority in Iraq, Kurds, Yazidis, Christians and Sunni Arabs not deemed sufficiently “pure” to them.

It’s all one movement, basically, and always has been, though there have been many organizations, and many leaders from well before 2003.
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No. It was American Republicans who created ISIS. The Republican Presidential candidate Mr. Rand Paul has said that ISIS exists and grew stronger because of war hawk Republicans. It was these Republicans who created ISIS according to Mr. Rand Paul which you can verify by watching this interview:
youtube.com/watch?v=5CvUiCJ1aQA
 
Tomdstone said:
It was George Bush who invaded Iraq and then it was George Bush who signed the agreement in December 2008 for all US troops to be completely out of Iraq by December 31, 2011. ISIS was formed while the US was in Iraq.
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Yup, ISIS had no desire to compete in democratic process. They wanted leadership by the gun.
 
Ridgerunner said:
As has been said many times, Bush signed an agreement with a termination date on it, as is true of most treaties. Iraq was willing to renegotiate it, but Obama wasn’t. You can blame Bush for some things, but not for abandoning Iraq to ISIS and Iran. Obama admitted he wasn’t interested in renegotiating the agreement. He just wanted out of Iraq and admitted it on national television.
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👍
 
SuperLuigi said:
So it’s all America’s fault :rolleyes:

Still think progressivism can triumph over radical Islam?
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Actually it’s all Bush’s fault. To understand the mind of the modern “progressive” your first need to realize that they believe all problems in the world can be traced back to George Bush .
 
Saudi Arabia, Qatar, and Turkey are the most responsible for this. They should be the ones taking in all these people that they are far more culturally compatible with.
 
Tomdstone said:
No. It was American Republicans who created ISIS. The Republican Presidential candidate Mr. Rand Paul has said that ISIS exists and grew stronger because of war hawk Republicans. It was these Republicans who created ISIS according to Mr. Rand Paul which you can verify by watching this interview:
youtube.com/watch?v=5CvUiCJ1aQA
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Anybody can put anything on YouTube.

it is simply historically wrong to say America, let alone American Repubs, created ISIS. ISIS has roots that are far deeper than American military involvement in Iraq. That radical movements undergo name changes does not mean they originated with the name changes. Rand Paul evidently doesn’t know what Islamic radicalism is all about if he thinks it actually started in 2003. And, if he really says that, he’s expressing a virtual racism as well as isolationism and ignorance of history. Is he so rigid in his father’s beliefs that he doesn’t think Muslim Arabs can come up with movements and ideologies themselves?

But perhaps Rand Paul can take some comfort in that he is an ideological brother with Barack Obama, during whose administration the Middle East and North Africa have become hell on earth due to such thinking.
 
Anyone see how Rand Paul is doing in the polls?

:rotfl:

By the way, I thought he also gave Hillary credit for the war over there as well.

Rand Paul, accuses McCain of having met Baghdadi per those photos when it was not Baghdadi, that was just internet gutter information. But some people I guess will push internet gutter information. :ehh:
 
Rand Paul’s theory also was his uninformed opinion that since McCain wanted to arm the rebels, that was how the Republicans created ISIS and this is an opinion that Rand Paul backed down from. That also includes what the SOS did as far as I know.

Rand Paul’s theory is not that since America invaded Iraq, this created ISIS, that is not his theory.

So, if we get a broken record, peddling disinformation on a daily basis, it is a falsehood.
 
Rand Paul has run a very disappointing campaign so far. He’s turned soft on illegal immigration and jumped on the “I love Israel” bandwagon. I’m not surprised at all at his numbers dropping.
 
estesbob said:
Actually it’s all Bush’s fault. To understand the mind of the modern “progressive” your first need to realize that they believe all problems in the world can be traced back to George Bush .
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Iraq was at peace more than it had been for decades when Bush left office. People voted and Al Quaeda had admitted defeat. The Kurds, Shia majority and the Sunni chiefs begged the U.S. to stay longer to maintain the peace. The military and Obama’s own Defense Secretary said we should stay longer in force. The Intelligence people did as well.

But Obama pulled out even so because he had campaigned on it. He even had the temerity to claim “victory” in Iraq when he did. He admitted on national TV that he had no desire to renegotiate the Status of Forces agreement.

He declared unilateral war on Libya without even telling congress in advance, let alone conferring with it. He backed the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, and ran guns to Islamic radicals in Syria.

And yet, the ideologically blinded on the left still say the nightmare in the Middle East is “Bush’s fault”.

And when, in the future, Obama’s ineptness leads to worse horrors in the region; perhaps a nuclear one, they’ll still say it. Unfortunately, people in the U.S. and in the region will have to pay the price for the ideological rigidity.
 
SuperLuigi said:
The EU is a mess. Nigel Farage is pretty much right—it’s nothing more than an elitist, pipe-dream project that won’t succeed any time soon—if ever.
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EU … is also the sound ya make when ya SEE a big enough mess.
 
estesbob said:
Actually it’s all Bush’s fault. To understand the mind of the modern “progressive” your first need to realize that they believe all problems in the world can be traced back to George Bush .
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Or the other one.
 
CaptFun highlights in Red
didymus said:
CBS News:

Europe’s open-border policy may be nearing its end

PARIS - Europe has for 30 years allowed most of its citizens to travel freely from one country to the next, but the experiment in open borders is now facing calls for its end amid several new threats.

“We face a diffuse terrorist threat trying to attack our values,” French Interior Minister Bernard Cazeneuve told an emergency meeting of foreign ministers from France, Germany, Spain, Italy and other European nations, who met in Paris to deal with terrorism and improve security in the wake of the attack by gunman Ayoub El-Khazzani on the Amsterdam-Paris Thalys train last week.

At the heart of the discussion was whether or not the European Union border policy of free travel, known as “Schengen,” can survive the waves of growing attacks against civilians in Europe.

The “perfect storm,” as a European diplomat called it, has hit Europe: terrorism, a migration crisis, and crime. Although they are not directly connected, the perception among many seasoned Europe observers is that the free movement of people across borders is making it easier for waves of people who intend to commit acts of violence to prey on victims - and to escape prosecution.

The Schengen border-free travel area for 400 million European Union (EU) citizens (as well as non-EU nationals and other persons legally present in the EU) has some history: it was created by an agreement in 1985 by individual nations when European nations could not agree to eliminate all border controls. It grew to where, by 1999, it became part of European Union law. Today, it consists of 26 countries, although UK and Ireland opted out and other non-EU countries were included.
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“We’ve got to become more like Europe! We’ve got to become more like Europe!”

“Other countries are laughing at us!”

As an American, I heard this over and over again in the run up to the 2008 elections. Afterwards some of “those folks” said - “NOW the world will respect us”.

While I didn’t agree with their whiny, sing-song otherwise devoid of substance assessment (WHICH countries were laughing? England? France? the Vatican? Who had the standing with a much better national record (?) - there are skeletons in every nation’s closet).

Flash to "The Obama Years".

Effortlessly he wins a Nobel Peace Prize and is granted an honorary doctorate at Notre Dame. He tours the world apologizing for America’s past to (initially) adoring crowds.

(Later) World War throughout the Middle East. “Muslim countries” from Morocco to Indonesia burn his effigy in the streets. “Peace” is what is NOT on the March. “The One” actually seems to despise Europe at times (citing Colonialism) and sends a White House bust of Winston Churchill BACK to the UK.

His Secretary of State (SOS) Hillary Clinton resigns amidst scandals and blood clots in her head that cause fainting spells, hospitalization and loss of memory at Congressional hearings. Peace Prize man now draws “red lines in the sand” threatening war …*** but*** drone bombs less dangerous targets.

AND then there’s “immigration”. :hmmm: RESET BUTTON - as this story develops, maybe we SHOULD be more “like Europe”.

Terror and Migrants and Crime (oh dear!) … Terror and Migrants and Crime (oh my!).

The terror threat in Europe (AND IMO in the U.S.) is diffuse as opposed to being diffused. :coolinoff:

And diverse as they are - “our” values are what “they” are trying to attack. Check that - are attacking (think, say … Fort Hood for one
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Fort_Hood_shooting )* .

Meanwhile WAVES of growing attacks by violent people who enter Europe and find it easy to avoid prosecution due to the eliminating of all border controls (is it really* ALL? *:eek:) are finally acknowledged by the continent some feel is ever so much “better” than America.

Remembering what a few hostile people **armed with just boxcutters did on 9/11/2001 - (and these were LEGAL immigrants all … even if they’d overstayed their “supposedly student” visas!) - maybe the U.S.'s “open borders” policy is (even) worse than Europe’s.

Illegal crossing of U.S. borders is arbitrarily enforced … and in some quarters encouraged with impunity (whereas*** publicly encouraging law breaking *** elsewhere might get people into HEAPS of trouble).

Sentimentally, a lot of wonderful people have risked all they had to come to the U.S. for a new chance at life … here it is allowed. Most of “US” descend from “immigrants” … and how legally they all got here is largely unknown to “us” in most cases.

But it’s the terrorists (of ANY nationality!) we don’t want to cross our borders and wreak havoc - that should be the focus IMO.

Not the passive, often victimized by Coyotes, peaceful people who risk their lives to try to come to America (not always successfully either :imsorry:). If the U.S.'s present “open borders” policies “end” … I HOPE it’s for the better - instead of being replaced by the newest version of “even worse”.

*** The Fort Hood Shooter was born in the U.S. but was swapping e-mails with the late Imam Anwar al-Awlaki < alleged senior recruiter for alQaeda. A different* form*** of cross border terrorism?
 
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