Evangelical Question On Prayer

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Gottle_of_Geer said:

LOL - that *really *brings back the past 😃 Do you ever come across the use of the phrase “…a place of…” ? As in: “…You have brought us into a place of brokenness…” ?​

These variations in how different Christians pray are fascinating 🙂
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**

OK, this one REALLY bugs me.
“We bow our knees in our heart.”**

**Why don’t y’all just bow your real knees, then!!! **:confused:
 
Richard_Abanes said:
TO ALL ROMAN CATHOLICS,

I’m curious…I am not going to respond at all, but I am simply asking a question just for Roman Catholics in good standing and practicing.

When you pray, who do you DIRECTLY pray to the most often (as in directly speak to them)?

God the Father?
God the Son, Jesus Christ?
God the HS?
Mary, the Blessed Virgin?
St. Joseph?
Another Saint?

And if you’d like to describe HOW you pray, feel free to do so…but please do not include the rosary, the Our Father, or other formula prayers – I am interested only in personal, one-on-one, intimate prayers wherein you are speaking to the individual.

Thank you.

R. Abanes
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Almost all Catholic prayers are in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
 
Gottle_of_Geer said:

That’s a new one on me 🙂 Genuflection is more of a Catholic thing 😉​

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I believe she meant - kneel on your knees, the most common and most convenient dispositon when praying.

But if you are in a private place, you can prostrate or undertake any position with your body to show your complete adoration and worship to the one and ever loving God. Or you can be in any position, because ultimately it’s what in the heart that really matters.

I guess you using the phrase “We bow our knees in our heart”, can be a problem for us. I think I know what you’re trying to say but because of different background our terms can be amusing to the others sometimes. 🙂
 
Pixie_Dust said:
Couldn’t vote since you didn’t put the Holy Trinity as an option. I pray to God; Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I ask Mary and the saints to pray for me.

I noticed you addressed this to ROMAN Catholics - Did you intentionally make this so Eastern Catholics couldn’t answer your poll?
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ditto. my answer exactly.
 
Gottle_of_Geer said:

This may sound weird 🙂 - but all prayer is directly to God.​

The Saint I pray to most is [St. Philip Neri (http://www.secularoratory.com/HolySpirit.htm):
  • Cardinal Newman’s Prayer to St. Philip
    Philip, my glorious advocate, teach me to look at all I see around me after thy pattern as the creatures of God. Let me never forget that the same God who made me, made the whole world and all men and all animals that are in it. gain me the grace to love all God’s works for God’s sake, and all men for the sake of my Lord and Saviour who has redeemed them by the Cross. and especially let me be tender and compassionate and loving towards all Christians, as my brethren in grace. And do thou, who on earth wast so tender to all, be especially tender to us, and feel for us, bear with us in all our troubles, and gain for us from God, with whom thou dwellest in beatific light, all the aids necessary for bringing us safely to Him and to thee
  • Source: Meditations and Devotions
  • as quoted in St. Philip Neri - a Portrait by Pere Louis Bouyer (Gracewing Fowler Wright Books 1995)
  • newmanreader.org/works/meditations/meditations4.html
  • A Prayer of Cardinal Baronius*****
    Look down from heaven, holy Father, from the loftiness of that mountain to the lowliness of this valley, from that harbour of quietness and tranquillity to this calamitous sea. And now that the darkness of this world hinders no more those benignant eyes of thine from looking clearly into all things, look down and visit, O most diligent Keeper, that vineyard which thy right hand planted with so much labour, anxiety, and peril. To thee then we fly, from thee we seek for aid: to thee we give our whole selves unreservedly; thee we adopt for our patron and defender. Undertake the cause of our salvation, protect thy clients; to thee we appeal as our leader, rule thine army fighting against the assaults of the devil; to thee, kindest of rulers, we give up the rudder of our lives; steer this little ship of thine, and placed as thou art on high, keep us off all the rocks of evil desires, that with thee for our pilot and our guide we may safely come to the port of eternal bliss.
O holy Father, St. Philip, I beseech thee by the abundance of the gifts thou didst receive from God, both of nature and of grace, and by the glory thou dost enjoy in heaven, to help me to obtain the joys of Paradise.
  • bromptonoratory.com/history/page4.html
    *****This is the usual attribution: another likely author is Baronius’ fellow Oratorian Antonio Gallonio, who includes the prayer at the end of his 1600 Life of St. Philip.
I*** love*** that second prayer - it says everything. 🙂 He is almost the only Saint I pray to.
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Hi Gottle of Geer, this looks like a good post. Might I suggest you repost in a larger font? For some reason it came out very small.
 
Here is my favorite prayer.
  • I love You Oh My God, and my only desire is to love You until the last breath of my life. I love You, Oh my infinitely loveable God, and I would rather die loving You, than live without loving You. I love You Lord, and the only grace I ask is to love You eternally. My God, if my tongue can not say in every moment that I love You, I want my heart to repeat it to You as often as I draw breath. Amen. *
~St. John Vianney
 
**grace: **Aren’t the Saints who have died and gone to Heaven part of “the great cloud of witnesses that surround us?” If not, who do you say IS the great cloud of witnesses?

RA: The meaning you’re putting on this is not supported by what the language used actually says.

It’s not “witnesses” as if they are around watching us. It’s “witnesses” as in they are witnesses to us of lives led in God that we should follow as an example.

IOW, they are witnessing to us by their lives. We are watching them (as we see them in scripture/history). They are not watching us.

R.A.
 
Grace: I love You Oh My God, and my only desire is to love You until the last breath of my life. I love You, Oh my infinitely loveable God, and I would rather die loving You, than live without loving You. I love You Lord, and the only grace I ask is to love You eternally. My God, if my tongue can not say in every moment that I love You, I want my heart to repeat it to You as often as I draw breath. Amen.

**RA: **Yeah. That’s awesome. So sad that I am anathema a damned by the Council of Trent. 😦
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=277553&page=30
See my “Today, 6:56 am” post

RA
 
Richard_Abanes said:
Grace: I love You Oh My God, and my only desire is to love You until the last breath of my life. I love You, Oh my infinitely loveable God, and I would rather die loving You, than live without loving You. I love You Lord, and the only grace I ask is to love You eternally. My God, if my tongue can not say in every moment that I love You, I want my heart to repeat it to You as often as I draw breath. Amen.

**RA: **Yeah. That’s awesome. So sad that I am anathema a damned by the Council of Trent. 😦
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=277553&page=30
See my “Today, 6:56 am” post

RA
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Riiiiiiiiiccccccccccchhhhhhhaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrddddddddddddd!!!:onpatrol:

you promised no converting, critiquing, or complaining
 
Brennan_Doherty said:
Hi Gottle of Geer, this looks like a good post. Might I suggest you repost in a larger font? For some reason it came out very small.
Click to expand...

I had a feeling that would happen 🙂 - so here it is again, in a comfier fount (I hope):​

This may sound weird 🙂 - but all prayer is directly to God.

The Saint I pray to most is [St. Philip Neri (http://www.secularoratory.com/HolySpirit.htm):

Cardinal Newman’s Prayer to St. Philip

Philip, my glorious advocate, teach me to look at all I see around me after thy pattern as the creatures of God. Let me never forget that the same God who made me, made the whole world and all men and all animals that are in it. gain me the grace to love all God’s works for God’s sake, and all men for the sake of my Lord and Saviour who has redeemed them by the Cross. and especially let me be tender and compassionate and loving towards all Christians, as my brethren in grace. And do thou, who on earth wast so tender to all, be especially tender to us, and feel for us, bear with us in all our troubles, and gain for us from God, with whom thou dwellest in beatific light, all the aids necessary for bringing us safely to Him and to thee

Source: Meditations and Devotions
  • as quoted in St. Philip Neri - a Portrait by Pere Louis Bouyer (Gracewing Fowler Wright Books 1995)
Look down from heaven, holy Father, from the loftiness of that mountain to the lowliness of this valley, from that harbour of quietness and tranquillity to this calamitous sea. And now that the darkness of this world hinders no more those benignant eyes of thine from looking clearly into all things, look down and visit, O most diligent Keeper, that vineyard which thy right hand planted with so much labour, anxiety, and peril. To thee then we fly, from thee we seek for aid: to thee we give our whole selves unreservedly; thee we adopt for our patron and defender. Undertake the cause of our salvation, protect thy clients; to thee we appeal as our leader, rule thine army fighting against the assaults of the devil; to thee, kindest of rulers, we give up the rudder of our lives; steer this little ship of thine, and placed as thou art on high, keep us off all the rocks of evil desires, that with thee for our pilot and our guide we may safely come to the port of eternal bliss.

O holy Father, St. Philip, I beseech thee by the abundance of the gifts thou didst receive from God, both of nature and of grace, and by the glory thou dost enjoy in heaven, to help me to obtain the joys of Paradise.
I*** love*** that second prayer - it says everything. 🙂 He is almost the only Saint I pray to.

I hope that’s easier to read 🙂
 
Ive just had a quick check on the poll results.

Breaking new
Catholics pray to God :eek:
And comming up in the next segment:

** Mary the Mother of God appears at Lourdes - RA says there’s nothing that woman won’t do to get attention

** Saints Peter and Paul open a class action against all protestants. They claim protestants have prayed for their help in moments of distress but publically deny them. They want their dues. Reformers say - we were just kidding.

** Solagate - we go live to Wittenberg. Luther wants 15% but the Pope’s playing hardball.

We’re back in 5…
 
Richard_Abanes said:
It’s not “witnesses” as if they are around watching us. It’s “witnesses” as in they are witnesses to us of lives led in God that we should follow as an example.

IOW, they are witnessing to us by their lives. We are watching them (as we see them in scripture/history). They are not watching us.

R.A.
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How can you be so sure about your interpretation?

Your interpretation vs. the Holy Spirit that has guided the Catholic Church for 2,000 years in matters of faith and morals?
 
grace: How can you be so sure about your interpretation?

RA: "Since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses [saints], let us also lay aside every earthly care and. . . . run with perseverance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith…” (Hebrews 12:1)

Grace, please look at this verse:
  1. IN CONTEXT; 2) PER THE LANGUAGE/WORDS USED.
CONTEXT
First, Hebrews 11 is talking about FAITH, those who embraced FAITH, and how they lived their lives according to FAITH.

Second, we come to Hebrews 12, which begins “THEREFORE” (i.e., because of what has just been shown in Chapter 11), “since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, LET US ALSO LAY ASIDE EVERY ENCUMBRANCE and the sin which so easily entangles us, and LET US run the race that is set before us, LOOKING TO Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith.”

The context is clear – we are beholding how THEY lived their lives and are supposed to emulate what we see in them. They are examples to use from the past that show us how to live by faith in obedience as they lived by faith in obedience. NOTHING IS HERE IN ANY VERSE, in context, that would even hint at them watching us. That makes no sense.

What does make sense, even in English, is the interpretation I have given. And such an interpretation is also supported in the Greek.

THE GREEK
The Greek word is Martus, the very same word from which we get our word MARTYR. It is used in Greek to describe someone who testifies by their actions what they know, have seen, have heard, or believe. It is the term applied to those who die for the faith because that is the ultimate expression of the truth of what they know.

SO, in other words, the verse is saying, “THEREFORE” (i.e., because of what has just been shown in Chapter 11), “since we have so great a cloud of MARTYRS surrounding us, LET US ALSO LAY ASIDE EVERY ENCUMBRANCE and the sin which so easily entangles us, and LET US run the race that is set before us, LOOKING TO Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith.”

The passage does not say, “THEREFORE” (i.e., because of what has just been shown in Chapter 11), “since we have so great a cloud of people watching us from heaven.”

What has happened is that Catholics have inserted the modern use of the word “witness” into this verse in place of the Greek meaning of the word. Thus, RCs are mis-reading the text to mean the “witnesses” are witnessing/watching us. They are not. They are martyrs that we are to be looking at and emulating.

This is just plain, simple Greek.

RA
 
Richard_Abanes said:
grace: How can you be so sure about your interpretation?

RA: "Since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses [saints], let us also lay aside every earthly care and. . . . run with perseverance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith…” (Hebrews 12:1)

Grace, please look at this verse:
  1. IN CONTEXT; 2) PER THE LANGUAGE/WORDS USED.
CONTEXT
First, Hebrews 11 is talking about FAITH, those who embraced FAITH, and how they lived their lives according to FAITH.

Second, we come to Hebrews 12, which begins “THEREFORE” (i.e., because of what has just been shown in Chapter 11), “since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, LET US ALSO LAY ASIDE EVERY ENCUMBRANCE and the sin which so easily entangles us, and LET US run the race that is set before us, LOOKING TO Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith.”

The context is clear – we are beholding how THEY lived their lives and are supposed to emulate what we see in them. They are examples to use from the past that show us how to live by faith in obedience as they lived by faith in obedience. NOTHING IS HERE IN ANY VERSE, in context, that would even hint at them watching us. That makes no sense.

What does make sense, even in English, is the interpretation I have given. And such an interpretation is also supported in the Greek.

THE GREEK
The Greek word is Martus, the very same word from which we get our word MARTYR. It is used in Greek to describe someone who testifies by their actions what they know, have seen, have heard, or believe. It is the term applied to those who die for the faith because that is the ultimate expression of the truth of what they know.

SO, in other words, the verse is saying, “THEREFORE” (i.e., because of what has just been shown in Chapter 11), “since we have so great a cloud of MARTYRS surrounding us, LET US ALSO LAY ASIDE EVERY ENCUMBRANCE and the sin which so easily entangles us, and LET US run the race that is set before us, LOOKING TO Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith.”

The passage does not say, “THEREFORE” (i.e., because of what has just been shown in Chapter 11), “since we have so great a cloud of people watching us from heaven.”

What has happened is that Catholics have inserted the modern use of the word “witness” into this verse in place of the Greek meaning of the word. Thus, RCs are mis-reading the text to mean the “witnesses” are witnessing/watching us. They are not. They are martyrs that we are to be looking at and emulating.

This is just plain, simple Greek.

RA
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Since they are watching us…what stops them from hearing our prayers?
 
Rotfl:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :coolinoff: 😃 :tiphat:
Ag_not said:
Ive just had a quick check on the poll results.

Breaking new
Catholics pray to God :eek:
And comming up in the next segment:

** Mary the Mother of God appears at Lourdes - RA says there’s nothing that woman won’t do to get attention

** Saints Peter and Paul open a class action against all protestants. They claim protestants have prayed for their help in moments of distress but publically deny them. They want their dues. Reformers say - we were just kidding.

** Solagate - we go live to Wittenberg. Luther wants 15% but the Pope’s playing hardball.

We’re back in 5…
Click to expand...
 
Pixie_Dust said:
Couldn’t vote since you didn’t put the Holy Trinity as an option. I pray to God; Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I ask Mary and the saints to pray for me.

I noticed you addressed this to ROMAN Catholics - Did you intentionally make this so Eastern Catholics couldn’t answer your poll?
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Amen! Woot for the GodHead, and Amen for the members of the body of Christ in Heaven!
 
AshleyBelle said:
I understand what you’re saying…and I was one of those protestants once upon a time 🙂

The problem, is that it’s difficult to understand our special relationship to Mary when you view her through protestant lenses. When I am asked “why do you pray to marry?” I can give the long answer, providing scripture references, writings of the early church fathers, church teachings, miracles credited to her intercession… Or I can give the short answer.

I pray to Mary, because I love her son:)
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So nice and beautifully put AshleyBelle ❤️

Well, for the OP, like the other Catholics, I could not vote in your poll because our faith doesn’t work that way. I pray to Our Heavenly Father and I pray to Our Lord Jesus Christ. I love the Catholic prayers which are so powerful and glorious all together. I pray to the Blessed Mother Mary as well to certain Saints that inspire me. One of my favorite prayers is to the Infant of Prague. Our Religion has a treasure trove of prayers. I just love the Holy Family.
 
Richard_Abanes said:
grace: How can you be so sure about your interpretation?

RA: "Since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses [saints], let us also lay aside every earthly care and. . . . run with perseverance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith…” (Hebrews 12:1)

Grace, please look at this verse:
  1. IN CONTEXT; 2) PER THE LANGUAGE/WORDS USED.
CONTEXT
First, Hebrews 11 is talking about FAITH, those who embraced FAITH, and how they lived their lives according to FAITH.

Second, we come to Hebrews 12, which begins “THEREFORE” (i.e., because of what has just been shown in Chapter 11), “since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, LET US ALSO LAY ASIDE EVERY ENCUMBRANCE and the sin which so easily entangles us, and LET US run the race that is set before us, LOOKING TO Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith.”

The context is clear – we are beholding how THEY lived their lives and are supposed to emulate what we see in them. They are examples to use from the past that show us how to live by faith in obedience as they lived by faith in obedience. NOTHING IS HERE IN ANY VERSE, in context, that would even hint at them watching us. That makes no sense.

What does make sense, even in English, is the interpretation I have given. And such an interpretation is also supported in the Greek.

THE GREEK
The Greek word is Martus, the very same word from which we get our word MARTYR. It is used in Greek to describe someone who testifies by their actions what they know, have seen, have heard, or believe. It is the term applied to those who die for the faith because that is the ultimate expression of the truth of what they know.

SO, in other words, the verse is saying, “THEREFORE” (i.e., because of what has just been shown in Chapter 11), “since we have so great a cloud of MARTYRS surrounding us, LET US ALSO LAY ASIDE EVERY ENCUMBRANCE and the sin which so easily entangles us, and LET US run the race that is set before us, LOOKING TO Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith.”

The passage does not say, “THEREFORE” (i.e., because of what has just been shown in Chapter 11), “since we have so great a cloud of people watching us from heaven.”

What has happened is that Catholics have inserted the modern use of the word “witness” into this verse in place of the Greek meaning of the word. Thus, RCs are mis-reading the text to mean the “witnesses” are witnessing/watching us. They are not. They are martyrs that we are to be looking at and emulating.

This is just plain, simple Greek.

RA
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That’s nice, RA, but not convincing. That is another way to interpret the scripture there. I’d rather go with the authority of** 2,000 years plus Jewish tradition** that went before it, than go with a new fangled interpretation.

Can’t you see that the Communion of Saints is something that gives us even more “assurance” of salvation? It brings to life the concept of everlasting life. Those who have died and gone before us and are in the presence of the Lord God Almighty, who are already experiencing the heavenly bliss of intimacy with God are praying for us to win our daily battles and to persevere in the race that is set before us.

If you want a nice cohesive “apology” for the faith, nothing is tighter than Catholic teaching that is faithful to the Magisterium, which encompasses Scripture and interpretations of scripture that have been known and accepted since the time of Christ, and even before, going back to the faith of the Old Testament.

Sometimes we just have to set aside “every encumberance” and run this race that is set before us. Even if the “encumberance” is our preconceived ideas, faulty interpretations, and pride.

(I speak from experience here, this is my testimony)
 
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