Evangelicals Will Be Extinct Within Ten Years

[always_gr8ful]

Tell me this, is we cannot fall from Grace which means sin, why did God say that we must REPENT and CONFESS our sins. Because from what you are saying, we cannot fall from Grace which means sin.

I see we have a difference in definition here. The common definition in Christianity of Grace is the gift of God’s unmerited favor.

From the Encarta Encyclopedia first "Grace (religion), in Christian theology, unearned favor, freely bestowed by God on individuals who are thereby redeemed and sanctified. Grace (Hebrew hen) in this sense is mentioned in Hebrew Scripture. In the New Testament, grace (Greek charis) is associated almost exclusively with the figure of Christ. By Christ’s atoning death, the limitless favor of God was revealed (see Atonement). "

Then: “In the 4th century St. Augustine agreed that God had created humanity free to obey or disobey him, but argued that the taint of original sin is transmitted to succeeding generations by the act of procreation. Humanity is therefore unable not to sin. Only the irresistible grace of God can free his creation from the power of sin, and that grace was given in Christ. **It is made accessible to individuals through the ministry of the church and especially through baptism and the other sacraments **(see Sacrament). Believers may still sin, but those whom God elects persevere and finally achieve salvation, not by their merit or good works, but by the triumphant grace of God (see Predestination).”

So it took over 300 years for grace to be warped into something governed by the Catholic church (as you said it was the first church).

Then, in the Middle Ages: "St. Thomas Aquinas, somewhat altered the Augustinian doctrine of grace, which they intended to affirm. Aquinas introduced a distinction between the realm of nature and the realm of the supernatural. The realm of nature, he argued, can be known by unaided reason. The realm of the supernatural can be understood only through the grace of God and by his gracious revelation of truth. Thus, Aquinas made room for both Aristotelian reason in the natural realm and traditional Augustinian theology in the supernatural realm. For him, reason is untainted by sin and yields adequate knowledge within its inherent limitations. Grace does not contradict or supersede nature, but perfects it.

The Scholastics also made a series of distinctions concerning the realm of grace itself. Grace belongs to the supernatural realm; yet an act of grace is necessary to elevate a person to the realm of grace. This is justifying grace, or grace of elevation (see Justification). It takes a further act of grace, called sanctifying grace, to make a person holy and sanctified and thus able to enter communion with God. In addition, there is gratuitous grace: God’s grace cannot be bound to any predetermined channel. Grace may be permanent, as recognized in the steadfast, virtuous life of its recipient (habitual grace); it may also be received on rare occasions to allow certain extraordinary acts of obedience to God (actual grace).

Scholastic theology tied grace almost exclusively to the sacramental system. Grace, according to this doctrine, is infused by each of the seven sacraments, so that the proper kind of grace is available when needed."

And that’s all I need to read to see that you are trying to teach me man-made doctrine, not what the Bible says. I don’t care about doctrine, I care about the Truth. If you have any scripture to back up these assertions about grace, I would love to see them as well as your explanations.

I have to ask once more. Do you believe God’s Word, the Bible? Because if you don’t believe it, showing you isn’t going to make a bit a difference. Three Catholics on this thread have confessed His Word is Truth. I need to know if you are one that believes, or if you don’t believe His Word, the entire Bible, is Truth.

 

[Marsha_Adams]

I see we have a difference in definition here. The common definition in Christianity of Grace is the gift of God’s unmerited favor.

A gift can be refused. A gift can be returned. A gift can be thrown away. A gift can be lost.

 

[a_burger]

I was just Holy Spirit convicted of a sloppy word I used.
“But we can know them by their works, or fruit.” Works are not fruit either. Sorry, my bad. We are either of the Vine or not. Even heathens can have good works.

 

[always_gr8ful]

Always:

Hypothetically, suppose you were a Christian during the time of the Emperor Nero, and you were taken prisoner because of your faith. You are told that if you deny Christ and offer incense to Jupiter that you will be released, but if you don’t you will be used as a torch at the Emperor’s garden party tonight.

If it is not possible to fall from grace and Jesus would perfectly understand why you might prefer not to light up the Emperor’s party, would you save your life or choose a martyr’s death?

I would be a sishkabob before I would deny Christ. Mostly, I would pray that my death came quickly. Not off the top of my head - I’ve actually thought about it because Christians are dying for the faith all over the world. For example, you might have heard about the Chinese churches held secretly in homes that are being raided by the police. The worshipers are told to spit on the Bible or die. Some choose to die, which is being shot in the head. Two days ago I saw a report where Christians are being murdered in Baghdad now.

 

[a_burger]

You must have read Pope John Paul II. He said that good deeds without the proclamation of the gospel are worthless. God, in the OT described those type of good deeds filthy rags.Good example- the Call To Action people.

I am Catholic and descended 18 generations back from Lord Baltimore himself.

 

[always_gr8ful]

I just realized I didn’t completely answer your question. Since I would be willing to die, how about the Chinese that choose to spit on the Bible rather than die? I would say of those who have accepted Christ, that they are saved by grace, and they have not yet come into the fullness of what Christ did for them. They do not yet see that this time we have here is but a blip compared to the glory to come. They do not yet love the Lord our God with all their hearts and all their minds. They are still saved by God’s perfect Lamb, Whose Blood has washed their sins away.

 

[Marsha_Adams]

I would be a sishkabob before I would deny Christ. Mostly, I would pray that my death came quickly. Not off the top of my head - I’ve actually thought about it because Christians are dying for the faith all over the world. For example, you might have heard about the Chinese churches held secretly in homes that are being raided by the police. The worshipers are told to spit on the Bible or die. Some choose to die, which is being shot in the head. Two days ago I saw a report where Christians are being murdered in Baghdad now.

Okay. Now what would be the ramifications of choosing to deny Christ and offering incense to Jupiter?

 

[Marsha_Adams]

I just realized I didn’t completely answer your question. Since I would be willing to die, how about the Chinese that choose to spit on the Bible rather than die? I would say of those who have accepted Christ, that they are saved by grace, and they have not yet come into the fullness of what Christ did for them. They do not yet see that this time we have here is but a blip compared to the glory to come. They do not yet love the Lord our God with all their hearts and all their minds. They are still saved by God’s perfect Lamb, Whose Blood has washed their sins away.

So, if I don’t accept God’s grace I will burn in hell, no matter what good I do. If I do accept God’s grace I will be saved no matter what evil I do?

 

[always_gr8ful]

You must have read Pope John Paul II. He said that good deeds without the proclamation of the gospel are worthless. God, in the OT described those type of good deeds filthy rags.Good example- the Call To Action people.

I am Catholic and descended 18 generations back from Lord Baltimore himself.

I forgot to say hi to Marsha. Hi Marsha.

a burger, how are you?
Is your post to me or Marsha? I’m familiar with our righteous acts being as filthy rags. I once posted that scripture and the antagonist to this day say that I think I’m a filthy rag. Doesn’t bother me a bit.

There is nothing more humbling than to come to the realization of just how far we fall short of the mark. I mean, I can be one messed up little girl sometimes, but God knew everything I would ever do before I was even born, and He loves me anyway. I spent years having no relationship with God because I was so burdened in my sins until about 10 years ago when I got ahold of Romans 8. It was like a bolder had been lifted from my shoulders. I knew I could never be good enough, but praise be to Jesus, because of Him I will stand before our Holy God as righteous, a child of the Most High!

I know exactly 3 things about Popes. When I was in Rome at the Vatican, the Pope was going to give a speech that day but was ill. Our tour guide told some gossip I thought she should have kept to herself. I know what the Pope said about the Catholic church being the only way to salvation, and I watched the Christmas Mass given by the Pope this last Christmas.

I don’t know what Call to Action is, or their people. But I’ll google it.

 

[always_gr8ful]

So, if I don’t accept God’s grace I will burn in hell, no matter what good I do. If I do accept God’s grace I will be saved no matter what evil I do?

To be absolutely clear - If you die without accepting Christ, you will spend eternity in hell. The road to hell is broad, Marsh, and it is filled with people who think they are so good they don’t need Jesus.

I’m of the mind once saved, always saved. I haven’t found that giant eraser from the Book of Life in scripture yet. But I’m not done looking.

 

[always_gr8ful]

Call to Action (CTA) is an organization that advocates for a variety of causes within the Roman Catholic Church. Call to Action’s goals include women’s ordination, an end to mandatory priestly celibacy, a change in the church’s teaching on a variety of sexual matters, and a change to the way the church is governed. Call To Action has been criticized for its left-wing views by the Vatican which declared CTA’s views to be irreconcilable with the Catholic faith; these controversial positions of CTA have even resulted in a general excommunication for all its members in one diocese in the United States.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Call_to_Action

Well, that didn’t help much. Hope you were talking to Marsha.

 

[always_gr8ful]

Marsha,

“Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”

God’s Righteousness Through Faith

"But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Boasting Excluded

Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law."
~Romans 3

 

[rinnie]

Hi AG:wave:

Ok heres some more scripture 1 cor 4:4 It is the Lord who judges me. Paul was quite clear in admitting that even he could fall away. I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified (1 Cor. 9:27) That should sum it up a tad for you.

Then there is Jer 17:9 who says the heart is deceitful and corrupt who can understand it.

Remember what I told you what Jesus said THere are those who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. luke 8:13

What Jesus means by falling away is of course falling into sin, Falling away means one thing falling from Grace. Think about it temptation is sin. Sin is to distance yourself from God.

But remember Jesus knew this, that is why he left us the Church. Yes Jesus died for ours sins, I agree, but we must repent, and confess and that is why he gave his Apostles the Power to forgive that sin. To keep us in the State of Grace. That’s why confession puts us back into the grace with God. It takes away what separates us from him. Our sin.

You are correct that without his death on the cross we could not be forgiven our sins, but see now we are. All we have to do is confess and repent. By his death and rising he set us free, but we cannot die in mortal sin. That’s why we confess (the more the better). Its our best defense in this world. He gave the Priests that power. (as we talked about earlier) Hope that helps. I am not the best teacher in the world. (probally the worst:coolinoff: But I try!

 

[Marsha_Adams]

To be absolutely clear - If you die without accepting Christ, you will spend eternity in hell. The road to hell is broad, Marsh, and it is filled with people who think they are so good they don’t need Jesus.

I’m of the mind once saved, always saved. I haven’t found that giant eraser from the Book of Life in scripture yet. But I’m not done looking.

Ezekiel 3

17Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me.

18When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

19Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.

20Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling-block before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

21Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.

This passage shows that its possible for a righteous (saved) man to lose his salvation.

 

[always_gr8ful]

Ok heres some more scripture 1 cor 4:4 It is the Lord who judges me. Paul was quite clear in admitting that even he could fall away. I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified (1 Cor. 9:27) That should sum it up a tad for you.

Hi Rinnie!

It is the Lord who judges me too. As I said before, we are all sinners and deserve “Guilty As Charged!”, but through Christ alone, we are made righteous.

The scripture in 1 Cor. 9:27 was one Marsha and I were discussing earlier in this thread. In context, it is Paul speaking doubt about himself alone. We all have doubts at one time or another. Paul goes on to say to the Romans that there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus and that nothing can separate us from the love of God. (Romans 8) Remember, verses can’t conflict. So which one is the gospel truth? What he says about himself, or what he preaches/teaches us about us?

Also what does castaway or disqualified mean? Is Paul damning himself, or in context, is he saying that he may become disqualified from preaching? See, it’s quite a stretch we have to make one one line of scripture out of thousands, when so many others are so plain and clear.

Then there is Jer 17:9 who says the heart is deceitful and corrupt who can understand it.

Yes, it is. But I have a feeling you don’t realize how very deceitful and corrupt it is. It’s that big sin and little sin thing I’m feeling from your posts. Do you think that you know every sin you commit enough to confess them all to your priest? Do you know how far you actually fall short of the mark? My friend and I have laughed over how we used to pat ourselves on the back every once in a while that we had really been doing good and God must really hold us in high regard, puffed up with pride for a moment - until He slam dunked us back into reality, lol.

Remember what I told you what Jesus said There are those who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. luke 8:13 .

"Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

"Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

"They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

"And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.

“But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.”
~Luke 8:11-15

Which one of these four do we KNOW are not saved based on the plain words of Jesus? Don’t you think that Jesus would be totally clear when speaking about something as important as our salvation? Well, He is clear - Believe and be saved. He does not say those that are tempted and fall away go on to fire and gnashing of teeth, or that they fall from His Grace.

What Jesus means by falling away is of course falling into sin, Falling away means one thing falling from Grace. Think about it temptation is sin. Sin is to distance yourself from God.

But remember Jesus knew this, that is why he left us the Church. Yes Jesus died for ours sins, I agree, but we must repent, and confess and that is why he gave his Apostles the Power to forgive that sin. To keep us in the State of Grace. That’s why confession puts us back into the grace with God. It takes away what separates us from him. Our sin…

So God sent Jesus to be the bridge, so to speak, that separates us from a Holy God, and now you think we need Priest to bridge the separation from Jesus. What did Jesus die for then? By your account, God could have saved His Son the agony and just sent priests!

You are correct that without his death on the cross we could not be forgiven our sins, but see now we are. All we have to do is confess and repent. By his death and rising he set us free, but we cannot die in mortal sin. That’s why we confess (the more the better). Its our best defense in this world. He gave the Priests that power. (as we talked about earlier) Hope that helps. I am not the best teacher in the world. (probally the worst:coolinoff: But I try!

Well, I appreciate you trying, Rinnie. I wish you could see how ludicrous this looks to a simple Bible-believer like me. You don’t have scripture to back up your doctrine, so that is what it is. I make no judgments about your salvation, as I believe God sees our hearts. But…You are in my prayers that God opens your eyes to the Truth in His Word. (((Rinnie))) (hugs)

 

[always_gr8ful]

Ezekiel 3

20Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling-block before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

21Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.

This passage shows that its possible for a righteous (saved) man to lose his salvation.

Did you know that Ezekiel 3 is the only scripture in the Old Testament that God tells His people they will die in their sins?

Interestingly, Jesus used the term “die in your sins” only once, while talking to the Jews in the Temple:

"Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.

Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come.

And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning."
~John 8:21-25

We are only made righteous before God through the Blood of Jesus.
“As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:”
~Romans 3:10

 

[always_gr8ful]

One more and then I’ll quit. I just feel like y’all have put up a wall between you and Christ, and God the Father, and you don’t even know it! Let me put it this way - remember that scripture earlier about the foundation, and the material being used to build the walls needs to be the truth - and if it’s not, it will be burned up in the end? When you stand before God, and your doctrine turns out to be terribly misguided, what are you going to have left that isn’t toast? Not only that, but you totally missed out on a personal relationship with God! And that is sad.

In 1 Corinthians 1:30 Paul said that Jesus “became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification and redemption.”

The word “became” is past tense. What Jesus has become for you is a finished work. You don’t need to add a thing to be in right standing before God. Jesus became all of this for you and he continues to be all of this for you as a gift. This is imputed righteousness, the true essence of the grace of God.

You must be satisfied with Jesus, and rest in Him and abide in Him. Put all your faith in Jesus Christ for your right standing before God, and begin to move from faith to faith. Relax. Stop striving to justify yourself. To be legalistic is to lock yourself under the power of sin, because sin will be master over you as long as you are under the law. Could I go so far as to say you are actually nullifying grace by rejecting the perfect work of the Cross, confessing to priests and working for your salvation?

“But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace”.
~Romans 11:6.

I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died needlessly.
~Galatians 2:21

 

[always_gr8ful]

KJV says Christ Jesus, who has become (not became).
Well, you get my drift. It’s a finished work.

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

To be absolutely clear - If you die without accepting Christ, you will spend eternity in hell. The road to hell is broad, Marsh, and it is filled with people who think they are so good they don’t need Jesus.

I’m of the mind once saved, always saved. I haven’t found that giant eraser from the Book of Life in scripture yet. But I’m not done looking.

So I can accept Christ and still kill my neighbor? Am I still going to heaven?

 

[Marsha_Adams]

So I can accept Christ and still kill my neighbor? Am I still going to heaven?

Its even better than that OTCA! You can deny Christ, and practice Satanic rites and abort a million babies and still go to heaven because once you’re saved, you’re always saved! Talk about cheap grace.