Evangelicals Will Be Extinct Within Ten Years

[rinnie]

Also Always you said that the Apostles ONLY could forgive sin. And this power died with them. Why then did Jesus say as my Father sent me I even so I send you. John 20:21

Now Jesus just said I give you the power I passed it on, If Jesus gave them the Power to do the same how can You take that power away from them. The Apostles were just given the same Power to pass it on. Now if the Apostles did not have the power to pass it on then they never had it anyway. Couldn’t have. Because did Jesus not pass it on to them and tell them to do the same?

Matt9:6 is why the gospel writer himself explains that God had given such authority to men. Since he would not always be visibly with the Church he gave this power to other men so the Church which is the continuation of his presence throughout time Matt 28:20 could forgive sins to future generations.

Also is that power died with the apostles where did the power to write scripture come from. The power has to remain, if not the Church would cease. Christ said to the apostles GO MAKE DISCIPLES of all Nations. He knew that would take a long time. And he promised them his assistane. Lo, I am with you always to the close of the age Matt 28:19-20

 

[rinnie]

Absolutely. This link will take you quotes from the early Fathers regarding confession, confirming your view of confession. catholic.com/library/Confession.asp

OSAS makes sin a non-issue. OSAS logically means that if we sin it’s no big deal because we’re already saved, there are no repercussions to violating God’s law, therefore there is no need for repentence (turning away from sin) or confession (receiving absolution for sin). It is a poisonous and insidious false doctrine.

Yep! But you my dear just summed it up in one paragraph. Darn I have a hard time doing that!

 

[always_gr8ful]

Ok my turn to study scripture. Three thoughts comes to mind.

One. I don’t doubt the word of my creator. But there absolutely is something I can do. I can choose to reject God’s FREE gift of grace. God has given us free will to choose, or not, to accept his free gift of grace.

Hi Whizkid!
Yep. That is the choice we all make - believe or don’t believe - accept or reject God’s Perfect Gift.

Isn’t that how Lucifer and the fallen angels ended up getting tossed from heaven? Revelation 12:7-9

Satan rebelled against God. The Angels were never offered Salvation through the Blood of the Cross. You are talking about two completely different things, and completely different beings. If you would like to start a new thread discussing this, I would be happy to participate. But right now, comparing Angels to Man will only confuse this discussion. And we know who the author of confusion is.

Two. Who says I work for salvation? Pelagianism was declared a heresy in the 5th(?) century. The only works in Catholocism are the works that come from faith described in James 2:14-16. I totally agree with you that it is wrong, even heretical, for anybody to thing that salvation can be attained by works. But that wasn’t the question, the question was about losing one’s salvation.

I’m so glad that you believe God’s Word - that the only works are works of faith. Me too! It might not have been your question, but it is what we have been discussing. When these statements were made by Rinnie, not only were they not rebuked by Catholics, they were cheered on by some:

*“That is why Grace is not enough.”

“But we do have a shot of getting into heaven. A real good shot. But that only shot is the Church.”

“2 good reasons for confession, to admit that sin, and show that you acknowledge it. Once you say it and ask for forgiveness its like you feel clean and new again.”

“Another reason you not only get that sin wiped clean, but here is the BIG thing. You get something else in return too. GRACE.”

“And the more you confess, the less sins you have the closer to God you become.
I said and I will repeat we can LOSE grace.”*

None of this is Biblical. Jesus died for our sins ONCE and for ALL.

Catholics have a personal relationship with Christ. But when you say a personal relationship with Christ do you really mean “have I accepted Christ as my personal Lord and Savior?” And the answer to that question is yes. Catholics must do that every day because the process of salvation (what many non-Catholic Christians call sanctification) is ongoing and not a one time event.

If you say salvation is a process, then you can say that this process is what non-catholics call sanctification. But that’s not true, is it? We just saw that salvation is not a process from the words of Jesus. We cross over from death to life. If salvation is a process as you say, you would be only half way over, floating somewhere in the middle until you “did” enough to finished what Jesus had already done for you.

 

[always_gr8ful]

Gird your loins. What you don’;t know it that I was was an Evangelical for 20 years and I know the Bible very well. You will find this out. It ws the Bible that brought me back to the Catholic church. There is an ‘if and only if’ in the Bible saying saying for those who leave the faith will burn. I will completely answer once saved only saved after Easter. Also I will tell you this. There is a movement into the Catholic church by us exFundaentalists. Everything I write is backed up by Scripture.

Hi a burger!
Well, I’m just a Bible-believing Christian with no prior influences to the Truth of the Word, so of course I am curious to see this scripture you allude to that makes Jesus a liar.

 

[always_gr8ful]

Absolutely. The Problem here is not Gods Word, or the message in the bible. I have never denied one piece of scripture. Its your interpretation that I have a real problem with. ITs your words not Gods.

See you claim that you agree that the Apostles have the Gift of the Holy Spirit, you say yes they could forgive sin. Then you say but hey that was never passed on.

In first Timothy it says 6:20-21 O Timothy GUARD what has been entrusted to you. AVOID profane babbling and the absurdities of so-called knowledge, By professing it some people have deviated from the faith.

See now here is where you and I have a big problem. Let me tell you why. Now I go by the teaching’s of the church. Now if I have misled you and I told you anything that goes against the teaching’s of the RCC and someone corrects me. I will go to my Priest and ask him. If he says yes, you are misunderstanding that. I STAND to be corrected. I wll and have in the past came back and said My Mistake. I don’t care to be wrong, I care to spread the truth, not my truth, Gods Truth.

Now if you go to ANY RCC the teaching is the same, it must be there is only one truth. You see it on here everyday that we stick together, gang up on people. That is a lie, we all have the same truth. We have to because there is only one God.

Now if I got to one protestant church I learn one truth, another protestant church another, then alot of my protestant friends say the truth in the protestant chuch is what you want it to be. Now not all protestant Churchs. but some I said. Before I get attacked here and de-rail this thread.

Back to Timothy what did Timothy guard , and why did he have to guard it. And why did he have it entrusted to him. Well the Church is still guarding the truth and always will.

Now back to the point, only one person can be right here. You or the Church. So if I am wrong and I was not correct in what I told you, and I am sure Catholic’s would correct me, and rightly so. But we all seem to agree. Now why is that?

Hi Rinnie!
ABSOLUTELY guard the Truth! But make sure it’s the Truth you are guarding and not dogma. Ok, you know I have no religious affiliation. I just don’t “do” religion. So let’s say I have a question about Jesus, something that’s been bothering me for a long time. I get on the internet and start searching for an answer. Without taking notice of any religion, I might find several opinions, different beliefs and I might even see a line here and there of scripture used. Then it would be up to me to pick and choose which one I should believe.

OR, I can go to God’s Word and get the Truth. You are SO right! There can only be one Truth, and it’s not mine. The Truth of the Word of God IS that One Truth. If you are putting the Church ahead of Him - the Head of the Church, the Light of the world, the Truth - how can you be sure that what you are guarding is even correct?

 

[whizkid43]

Hi Whizkid!
Yep. That is the choice we all make - believe or don’t believe - accept or reject God’s Perfect Gift.

If you say salvation is a process, then you can say that this process is what non-catholics call sanctification. But that’s not true, is it? We just saw that salvation is not a process from the words of Jesus. We cross over from death to life. If salvation is a process as you say, you would be only half way over, floating somewhere in the middle until you “did” enough to finished what Jesus had already done for you.

Hi gr8ful!

You agree that accepting God’s free gift of grace is a choice. The “process” is the continual acceptance of God’s free gift, grace. It’s not about works, it’s about cooperation with God.

A relationship only works when both parties agree to cooperate with one another, right?
God ALWAYS chooses to cooperate with us, in the end the decision is ours whether or not we cooperate with God. We need to continue to cooperate, or maintain our relationship, with God. There are no works involved.

Phillippians 1:5,6
Phllippians 2:12,13

 

[always_gr8ful]

Also speaking of Gods word, Could you explain something to me.

John 14:12 AMEN AMEN I say to you, whoever believes in me will do the WORKS that I do and will do greater ones than these, because I am going to the Father.

Now here if my question, how could you POSSIBLY believe in God and not do WORKS then?

I don’t know anyone who is saved that could not do works. When we are saved and the Holy Spirit indwells in us, we WANT to do what is pleasing to God. It just isn’t a requirement of salvation.

Here is something else you say works have nothing to do with salvation right? Well tell me this, why did God say whoever believes in me will DO WORKS. Now does not doing works mean doing something.

Now lets say we are going to separate Jesus from his works. We are saying like you, we don’t need works. We are already saved by the cross. Then how could we believe and NOT DO WORKS. Because Jesus said will do works , not could, should. I do not read believe in me is all you have to do. I see works there! Could you explain that scripture to me, and what it means to you.

You are reading more into what Jesus said than is there.

Same answer. It is the Holy Spirit that gives us the burning desire to want to do what is pleasing to God. Apart from Him, we can do nothing. I don’t take credit for the good I do anymore because the Word has shown me that every good thing I have in me, HE put there. It’s finished. But while I am in this body, I’m going to walk it out because I love God and want to do what He wants me to do.

When you are set free from the bondage of sin and death, it becomes clear the freedom we have in Christ. It’s knowing that we can do anything we want to do, and wanting to do it HIS way.

 

[rinnie]

Hi Rinnie!
ABSOLUTELY guard the Truth! But make sure it’s the Truth you are guarding and not dogma. Ok, you know I have no religious affiliation. I just don’t “do” religion. So let’s say I have a question about Jesus, something that’s been bothering me for a long time. I get on the internet and start searching for an answer. Without taking notice of any religion, I might find several opinions, different beliefs and I might even see a line here and there of scripture used. Then it would be up to me to pick and choose which one I should believe.

OR, I can go to God’s Word and get the Truth. You are SO right! There can only be one Truth, and it’s not mine. The Truth of the Word of God IS that One Truth. If you are putting the Church ahead of Him - the Head of the Church, the Light of the world, the Truth - how can you be sure that what you are guarding is even correct?

You lost me here always. What are you asking me. Are you saying that I have separated Jesus from his church. Can’t be done. Jesus said he and his church are one. You cannot separate Jesus Christ from the Catholic CHurch they are one. THe bible tells us so!

 

[always_gr8ful]

Now the very next line, If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

Now show me one commandment that is not something we must work at. Show me on commandment we can break and not be in mortal sin, and show me where we can get to heaven with mortal sin?

Same answer. Jesus said it clearly “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.” We keep His commandments because we love him. Keeping His commandments is not a requirement of salvation.

If you can you are right and I am wrong. We are saved from the start, do not have to do anything to keep our salvation and everyones getting in!

Oh no no no! The road is narrow, and only those who BELIEVE on Jesus are saved.

Now please don’t say that If we Love Jesus we won’t sin. Because thats not true. No matter how hard we try we fall. Rather we want to sin or not is not for debate, its that we do. And sin is falling from Grace. Because grace is good, and pleasing to God. Sin is not good and not pleasing to God.

If a man says he does not sin, the truth is not in him. We ALL sin and fall short of the Glory of God. Jesus died for our sins. ALL of them. Where sin abounds, Grace abounds even more. We have it in abundance. God is not in Heaven ready to snatch back Grace everytime we do something we see as sin. What about all the things you do that HE sees as sin, and you don’t yet because you haven’t matured in your faith? Do you think He just winks at those? No, Jesus died for ALL our sins, even the ones we don’t know about.

Now Jesus knew what was commanded of him. here is proof John 14:31 But the world MUST know that I love the Father, and that I do just as the Father COMMANDED of me.
The proof is in the pudding as they say, Jesus had to do something too didn’t he. He obeyed his Father.

I’m not comfortable comparing myself to the Work of the Cross. So I’ll just say again, we obey God because we love Him. It’s not a requirement of salvation.

 

[always_gr8ful]

You lost me here always. What are you asking me. Are you saying that I have separated Jesus from his church. Can’t be done. Jesus said he and his church are one. You cannot separate Jesus Christ from the Catholic CHurch they are one. THe bible tells us so!

Rinnie, who is the HEAD of the Church?

 

[rinnie]

Rinnie, who is the HEAD of the Church?

Jesus, but he appointed Peter as his vicar giving him a special authority to govern the Church. Matt 16:18-19 John 21:15-17. (the Pope today)

He promised his Apostles that when they taught he spoke through them and whoever rejected their teachings rejected Jesus himself. Matt 10:40 Luke 10:16.

 

[rinnie]

Okay you said all we have to do is believe in Jesus but not keep his commandments. Then tell me this how can you believe in Jesus and not keep his commandments?

Better yet how can you not keep his commandments and still keep salvation. And if we all have salvation why is the road narrow.

 

[always_gr8ful]

Hi gr8ful! You agree that accepting God’s free gift of grace is a choice. It’s not about works, it’s about cooperation with God.

A relationship only works when both parties agree to cooperate with one another, right?
God ALWAYS chooses to cooperate with us, in the end the decision is ours whether or not we cooperate with God. We need to continue to cooperate, or maintain our relationship, with God. There are no works involved.

Phillippians 1:5,6
Phllippians 2:12,13

Oh, we are so VERY close here whizkid. Accepting God’s free gift of Grace is when we come to believe, and it is that time that we step over from death to life, just as Jesus said.

The “process” is the continual acceptance of God’s free gift, grace.

Would you re-crucify Jesus daily?

 

[rinnie]

Now this I need to see. Where does it say where sin abounds grace, grace abounds more? SO are you saying the more we sin the more grace we accquire?

 

[rinnie]

Also where did I say we have to confess venial sin? I didn’t did I. I told you before venial sin will not keep you out of heaven Mortal sin will!

 

[always_gr8ful]

Jesus, but he appointed Peter as his vicar giving him a special authority to govern the Church. Matt 16:18-19 John 21:15-17. (the Pope today)

He promised his Apostles that when they taught he spoke through them and whoever rejected their teachings rejected Jesus himself. Matt 10:40 Luke 10:16.

Rinnie, there cannot be two Heads. We must always look to Jesus and His Word FIRST.

 

[rinnie]

Rinnie, there cannot be two Heads. We must always look to Jesus and His Word FIRST.

Where did I ever say that there were two heads. I said Jesus appointed Peter until he comes back. I never said Jesus made Peter God. Vicor, do you know what that word means?

 

[rinnie]

Same answer. Jesus said it clearly “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.” We keep His commandments because we love him. Keeping His commandments is not a requirement of salvation.

Oh no no no! The road is narrow, and only those who BELIEVE on Jesus are saved.

If a man says he does not sin, the truth is not in him. We ALL sin and fall short of the Glory of God. Jesus died for our sins. ALL of them. Where sin abounds, Grace abounds even more. We have it in abundance. God is not in Heaven ready to snatch back Grace everytime we do something we see as sin. What about all the things you do that HE sees as sin, and you don’t yet because you haven’t matured in your faith? Do you think He just winks at those? No, Jesus died for ALL our sins, even the ones we don’t know about.

I’m not comfortable comparing myself to the Work of the Cross. So I’ll just say again, we obey God because we love Him. It’s not a requirement of salvation.

How could anyone ever compare themself with the work of the Cross? Just because we obey him and Love him, could never compare ourself to Him. And I will ask again how can we disobey him and his commandments and keep our Salvation? IF so again why did he say the road is narrow. What does that mean the road is narrow?

 

[always_gr8ful]

Where did I ever say that there were two heads. I said Jesus appointed Peter until he comes back. I never said Jesus made Peter God. Vicor, do you know what that word means?

Nope. I don’t know what Vicor means, and that’s beside the point.
The point I was making is there can only be One Truth, and to make sure you are guarding the Truth and not religious dogma.

 

[rinnie]

Nope. I don’t know what Vicor means, and that’s beside the point.
The point I was making is there can only be One Truth, and to make sure you are guarding the Truth and not religious dogma.

Okay a vicar someone put in charge. God didn’t put me in charge to guard the truth. He put the Apostles in charge to do that. And that is what he left the Church here for, to show us the truth!